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Author Topic: Hidden Strings  (Read 8241 times)
tito del monte
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« on: April 20, 2013, 02:58:54 am »

So, this little beauty is currently an unconfirmed spoiler over on Salvation. Definitely my favourite Cipher card so far and may just have some eternal applications. As long as final card doesn't say 'non-land permanent', could this see some play in say Delver-based tempo decks? Maybe with Back to Basics or old faithful Winter Orb, currently enjoying an Indian summer in Legacy sidebaords? Or, just letting you tap out for a threat and have couter mana up again for your opponent's turn. Considering how vulnerable Fish-style decks have traditionally been to their opponent's top-decked bombs, that could be fairly handy.

Hidden Strings 1U
Sorcery
You may tap or untap target permanent, then you may tap or untap another target permanent
Cipher
Common

This might even do what Ral Zarek does better than the man himself, untapping Monoliths, Vaults and all that jazz...

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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2013, 05:23:15 am »

What the...? This card is utter crap.
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Samoht
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2013, 08:31:14 am »

What the...? This card is utter crap.

This is like a mini Ral Zarek! It HAS TO BE AWESOME AND PLAYABLE!
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2013, 09:43:20 am »

could be nice with delver/time vault....but might as well just play key for all that.
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brianpk80
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2013, 01:13:05 pm »

I don't know what the exact use for it is if it has any, but from a design perspective it's very aggressively pushed, being set up to generate four effects the turn its played and then two each successive turn.  It must be some sort of mea culpa for how awful Cipher was in the previous set. 
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2013, 02:34:44 pm »

This is more powerful than people are thinking, for exactly the reason Brian just pointed out.  Provided you're in some kind of fish deck, this card untaps two permanents and taps two others the turn you play it. Note also that it helps make sure you connect to trigger the second time, since you can tap down blockers with the first attack.  As long as you can target lands, that makes this basically a free spell when you cast it (tap two mana to cast it, untap those mana with the effect).

Consider this line of play.  Enemy is blue and has a Confidant, Mox Jet and Tropical.  You're Noble Fish with a Hierarch and one land.  You cast Strings targeting your hierarch and his bob; he really doesn't want to waste a counterspell on that.  You swing for 2, untap your land and tap down his blue source.  Now you're in a second main, can drop a second land to drop something bad like Thalia or whatever, and his blue is tapped out.

I'm excited to see where this gets used, because it absolutely seems playable.

As long as it doesn't say "non-land..."
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JACO
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2013, 07:28:06 pm »

So what you're saying is this is situationally mediocre, and terrible the rest of the time?
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2013, 09:28:02 pm »

It turns vault key from a 2 card combo into a three card combo. this thing, vault, and a dude. Combo is now vulnerable to creature removal. I'll test some fringe stuff and give it a shot. I'm not willing to test this.
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evouga
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2013, 09:56:16 pm »

I'm sure the idea is to play this in addition to, and not in place of, Voltaic Key.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2013, 10:57:36 pm »

So what you're saying is this is situationally mediocre, and terrible the rest of the time?

It's not Time Walk, but I don't think its as bad as you're making it out to be.  Would you play a Sorcery that said "Tap 2 permanents and untap two permanents?"  What if it also said, "During each of your next main phases, tap target permanent and untap target permanent?"

At a minimum, this is basically blue mana acceleration in the right matchup.  It's free when you cast it initially, and generates one to three mana each turn after that depending on what artifacts or lands you have in play.  You need to connect for it to matter, but that's very realistic in certain matchups.

And situationally, yes, it's even better because it can restrict your opponent's options during your turn.  

Best case senario, you have something that really benefits from the untap effect, like Time Vault.

This isnt an obviously powerful card; it's subtle.
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2013, 11:07:23 pm »

I'm sure the idea is to play this in addition to, and not in place of, Voltaic Key.
Why bother though? If you happened to have a dude and time vault in play Key is still just better. If you happen to just have a dude in play this thing isn't too thrilling. If you happen to have just a time vault in play key is just better key is just better again.
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Saya
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2013, 09:55:39 am »

untap time vault -> get flashbacked by snapcaster -> attach to snapcaster -> infinite turn
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2013, 10:47:08 am »

Wow nice. A three card combo giving you infinite turns.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2013, 11:04:14 am »

untap time vault -> get flashbacked by snapcaster -> attach to snapcaster -> infinite turn

Almost as broken as time vault + isochron scepter w/ twiddle imprint!
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2013, 12:34:09 pm »

C'mon guys.  It's not a perfect way to untap Time Vault, but it's potentially a useful fall back.  The more important aspect of it is that it's basically giving you blue acceleration / disruption turn after turn.  I'm telling ya, you're gonna see one of these in a top eight at some point in the next six months.  Someone is gonna try it out.
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xouman
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2013, 01:30:19 pm »

The best utility I can see it's in a tempo deck, specially with delvers. And use the abilities to untap 2 lands most of the time. Still feels poor most of the time, you cannot tap lands in opponent's turn, you have to effectively deal damage in order to get cipher, if the creature is killed the effect is lost... if you can make a tempo deck around vault (a kind of grixis maybe?) then this card deserves a try. otherwise, seems not good enough
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brianpk80
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2013, 04:25:59 pm »

The best use for it is something off the radar.  It clearly doesn't fit readily into one of today's existing decks.  But somewhere down the line either due to a new printing or an inspired discovery, it has potential because it's transparently above the curve.  It's more blatant than subtle I'd say.  But that doesn't mean it has a home or that it necessarily will. 
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2013, 01:01:19 am »

C'mon guys.  It's not a perfect way to untap Time Vault, but it's potentially a useful fall back.  The more important aspect of it is that it's basically giving you blue acceleration / disruption turn after turn.  I'm telling ya, you're gonna see one of these in a top eight at some point in the next six months.  Someone is gonna try it out.

Wanna make an avatar bet?
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BruiZar
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2013, 03:17:15 am »

stasis.. untap guy + island. pay for upkeep, rinse repeat
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2013, 11:44:13 am »

C'mon guys.  It's not a perfect way to untap Time Vault, but it's potentially a useful fall back.  The more important aspect of it is that it's basically giving you blue acceleration / disruption turn after turn.  I'm telling ya, you're gonna see one of these in a top eight at some point in the next six months.  Someone is gonna try it out.

Wanna make an avatar bet?

I dont know what that means.
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2013, 07:10:48 pm »

untap time vault -> get flashbacked by snapcaster -> attach to snapcaster -> infinite turn

Against this is worse than play key->win. No dudes required, no lightning bolt blow out. Twiddle is a bad card, and at any time you have a time vault out key is just better.
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Saya
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« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2013, 07:54:39 pm »

untap time vault -> get flashbacked by snapcaster -> attach to snapcaster -> infinite turn

Against this is worse than play key->win. No dudes required, no lightning bolt blow out. Twiddle is a bad card, and at any time you have a time vault out key is just better.
Obvly You are right.This spell is just an additional key.
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2013, 08:43:05 pm »

If I wanted to make a list and wanted an additional key effect,I'd play more keys befor this 100% of the time. It would always be better.
It's worse than tezz and even ral zarek if you ask me.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2013, 09:05:23 pm »

stasis.. untap guy + island. pay for upkeep, rinse repeat

If you're casting stasis and have 2 mana to still cast this, you have 3UU.  Might as well just play tezz in the first place, fetch up vault and gg.

That said, i think people are missing the basic utility of this card.  i think the focus has been on breaking time vault, and that's obviously not what this is best at.  The ability to just double twiddle on turn 2 (actually 4 times on turn 2 with a delver) is not awful at all.  It's not broken, but it is utility on the scale of fire/ice.  What it lacks in versatility, it gains in recastability.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2013, 09:39:56 pm »

stasis.. untap guy + island. pay for upkeep, rinse repeat

If you're casting stasis and have 2 mana to still cast this, you have 3UU.  Might as well just play tezz in the first place, fetch up vault and gg.

That said, i think people are missing the basic utility of this card.  i think the focus has been on breaking time vault, and that's obviously not what this is best at.  The ability to just double twiddle on turn 2 (actually 4 times on turn 2 with a delver) is not awful at all.  It's not broken, but it is utility on the scale of fire/ice.  What it lacks in versatility, it gains in recastability.

How are you doing your stasis math?  Consider this:

Turn 3: Two Islands in play, Cloud of Faeries in play.
Tap two, cast Hidden Strings, untap one Island, tap blocker or whatever.
Attack with Faries, untap second land.
Tap two lands for Stasis. 
Drop third Island.

Or even other cute stuff like this:
Turn 2: Drop second Island.
Cloud of Faeries, untap lands.
Hidden strings, untap one land.  Pass with a 1/1 with good ability and mana for Spell Pierce

Good card is good.  The question to answer is whether there is a shell that makes this effect worth a card.  I am not sure there isnt!  I hope it makes Stasis a thing. Smile
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2013, 01:40:43 pm »

I find the "good ability" part EXTREMELY questionable.
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evouga
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« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2013, 01:58:00 pm »

It's a rather awkward ability, to be sure, especially once Cyphered.

It doesn't cut off your opponent's mana when you would most want to do so, during his upkeep. It doesn't tap down blockers. It doesn't generate you bursts of mana, since you cannot float mana past combat.

That leaves
1. Tapping down blue sources to clear the way for your spells during second main;
2. Provides you 2 bonus mana per turn to use on cheap spells;
3. Shenanigans with Stasis, Time Vault, etc.

I don't think 1 and 2 are strong enough to be worth a card. But it's not outside the realm of possibility that a deck could be constructed with enough synergistic shenanigans that it makes the cut. For instance, a tempo-based deck that puts out a quick delver and then locks down the board with Stasis and Rod/Chalice...
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