Esper Counterbalance/Top

[personalbackfire]

Esper CB/Top

I played this list this past weekend at Coss’s event with abysmal results. However, I’m not sure that the deck was as bad as my results indicated. In actuality I think the list felt pretty good, but could use some tweaks, which is why I am here posting, asking for help. Anyways, here’s the list:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Dark Confidant
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Swords to  Plowshare
2 Mental Misstep
1 Steel Sabatage
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Island

I built this deck based off the premise that the PA/NJ vintage scene seems to love slow control decks like bomberman. I figured I wanted to build a deck that would be good against it, since its biggest advocate can’t lose anytime he plays it.

I started with the fact that counterbalance/Top and Bob is good against control. While bomberman has a ton of counters, trinket mages to fetch top, and Jace, I figured I would set up a soft lock with counterbalance/Top countering all their spells, play my own jaces, have a better draw engine in Bob, and play the better 2 card combo in vault/key. Hopefully if we get into a late game, I would be able to eventually pull ahead with my bobs leading to a victory.

Some Card Choices:
2 Spell Pierce ( 0 Mana Drain) -  I basically just wanted to play my Bobs, counterbalances, and jaces earlier with a one mana counterspell back up. It seemed more important to land these critical cards early than wait an extra turn to get drain online.

1 Lotus Petal (0 5th Mox) – This was just a concession that I wanted to have double blue early for counterbalance.

1 Vendilion Clique – I love this card, but it is mostly in the deck to act as a 3 cc spell for counterbalance.  One cool story from this weekend with this card was I was playing against an Empty Gush deck and he set up a critical turn with 2 cards left in hand where his plan was empty. He cast hurkyl’s recall to bounce his mox’s, in which I cast Vendilion in response and sent his ETW to the bottom of the deck. It felt pretty gratifying despite losing the match. The next game I went for the same play but he had 2 ETW in hand…

1 Flusterstorm – I am not sure why everyone plays this card; it always seems to be just okay for me. I would consider cutting it, but as I said everyone plays at least one, so I must be missing something.

2 STP – This card was to deal with all the creatures which invade the vintage metagame nowadays. It is especially awesome against Lodestone and gives this deck a fighting chance against workshops. Between this and steel sabotage and disenchants out of the board, I feel pretty comfortable against shops.  (By which I mean it is probably about even).

2 CB (instead of 3) – This had more to do with space; I think I would like to fit another in.

0 Tinker – I didn’t think Blightsteel was good anymore. Am I wrong? Talking to a friend he mentioned perhaps running a Wurmcoil Engine in the sideboard.

1 Ponder – I have a love for this card, but could see cutting it. In theory it is good with counterbalance, but that literally never came up.

1 Hurkyl’s Recall – I generally error on the side of having cards against workshops, but there wasn’t a ton of shop decks at the event. If I had to run the deck tomorrow I think I would make this an Echoing Truth. I am not even sure Hurks is where you want to be against shops with this style deck.

Problems with the deck:

It felt underpowered.  I think I want to add a Mana Crypt in, perhaps over the 16th land. This would just allow for more early plays more often. This then makes me want to add in at least tinker (if not tinker and a robot).

The mana – Three basics were maybe an issue. I’m not sure if I need to add another fetch or something. A few times I would have a black spell in my hand and no black source or white spell in my hand and no white source.

Gush decks are probably an issue. Counterbalance is going to have a hard time countering Gush unless you find and float one of your 4 Force of Wills on top of the deck.  

Dredge is definitely an issue and deserves some sb slots.

Anyways, thanks for reading through this. I’m asking for general advice on how you all think I can improve this deck, and specifically advice on the issues I listed.
Thanks,
Steve

[Samoht]

Flusterstorm seems good against Empty Gush

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Nice deck Steve! Yeah gush is probably a problem for the deck, but I was one of the few people on it in the room. If we weren't paired I think you would have topped with this deck. Also is 4 bob too many?

[DubDub]

Why Wurmcoil Engine versus Sphinx of the Steel Wind?

Wurmcoil is more castable, but you're in Esper colors, and it's only a difference of  .  Sphinx has vigilance and pro-green pro-red, versus Wurmcoil's left behind mini-coils if it dies....  Sphinx is also pitchable.

[personalbackfire]

Flusterstorm seems good against Empty Gush

Yea, that's probably true. I could try adding another one to the sideboard to help in that match.

Nice deck Steve... Also is 4 bob too many?

You know Josh, probably not. The main problem with the deck is trying to fit everything in it. When I was brewing it I originally was torn between 4 Bob 1 Snap, or 3 & 2 and I settled on 3 & 2. That said, while I would like to fit in another bob (and counterbalance for that matter), I wouldn't want it to come at the cost of a snapcaster. I really liked the versatility of the card.

Why Wurmcoil Engine versus Sphinx of the Steel Wind?

Wurmcoil is more castable, but you're in Esper colors, and it's only a difference of  .  Sphinx has vigilance and pro-green pro-red, versus Wurmcoil's left behind mini-coils if it dies....  Sphinx is also pitchable.

The main reason I would want it is as you stated, it leaves behind 2 creatures if it gets bounced.

[Samoht]

Why Wurmcoil Engine versus Sphinx of the Steel Wind?

Wurmcoil is more castable, but you're in Esper colors, and it's only a difference of  .  Sphinx has vigilance and pro-green pro-red, versus Wurmcoil's left behind mini-coils if it dies....  Sphinx is also pitchable.

It also has first strike, which is relevant.

[DubDub]

Why Wurmcoil Engine versus Sphinx of the Steel Wind?

Wurmcoil is more castable, but you're in Esper colors, and it's only a difference of  .  Sphinx has vigilance and pro-green pro-red, versus Wurmcoil's left behind mini-coils if it dies....  Sphinx is also pitchable.

The main reason I would want it is as you stated, it leaves behind 2 creatures if it gets bounced.

Just to be clear, you only get mini-coils if the Wurmcoil Engine 'dies'.  In cases where Sphinx/Wurmcoil get bounced or exiled, they behave identically.  It's just in cases of 'death' (i.e. put into the graveyard from the battlefield).  It's still a clear positive benefit to Wurmcoil (and a heck of a reason to play Wurmcoil alongside Goblin Welder), but it's not 100% going to trigger.

Plus, if it's 'dying' to Nature's Claim or Shatter type effects... well Sphinx just says "no thanks" to those with double-protection.

[personalbackfire]

Just to be clear, you only get mini-coils if the Wurmcoil Engine 'dies'.  In cases where Sphinx/Wurmcoil get bounced or exiled, they behave identically.  It's just in cases of 'death' (i.e. put into the graveyard from the battlefield).  It's still a clear positive benefit to Wurmcoil (and a heck of a reason to play Wurmcoil alongside Goblin Welder), but it's not 100% going to trigger.

Plus, if it's 'dying' to Nature's Claim or Shatter type effects... well Sphinx just says "no thanks" to those with double-protection.

Good catch, thanks I hadn't re-read wurmcoil.

[Kirika]

@personalbackfire
I saw you playing at the event with the Counterbalance in play and thought it was worth trying as a side board card vs control.  I didn't know you had them main deck.

I was the Asian guy playing Esper Bomberman.

Just keep playing.  You don't always do well unless well your Justin.

I'm not sure how good Counterbalance really is versus Bomberman if you don't have Wasteland to get rid of Cavern of Souls.   That made Bomberman really powerful with uncounterable Bob, Trinket, Snapcaster and Salvager.  You do have Swords to kill resolved creatures though.

I think you should have 4 Dark Confidants.   Drawing cards is just so good.

I'm not a fan of top deck tutors for the card disadvantage and with things like Clique during your draw step I cut them all.

I think you should run 1 or 2 Cavern of Souls on Wizard is pretty good lets you cast Bob, Snapcaster and Clique.

I might have been playing Bomberman too long but I like Trinket Mage to find Top, Lotus, Engineered Explosives or sideboard artifacts is pretty good.

I just started running Vendilion Clique after running it for awhile in Legacy stoneblade and I like it so far.

Flusterstorm is just good in control mirrors to win counter wars and versus storm so having the 1 to hedge is decent.

I agree on Tinker Blightsteel since most workshop decks are running Metamorphs and Duplicant its not even worth it against them anymore.

I haven't run Ponder in awhile. 

Hurkyl's was more relevant when there was more Tinker bot.  I prefer destroying then bouncing so I run destroy effects mostly.    I ran Echoing Truth in the past its pretty good vs Goblin Tokens from Empty the Warrens but I don't really think you need it if your running white for Swords to Plowshares and Engineered Explosives kills Goblin tokens along with other stuff pretty well.

I personally don't like Mana Crypt as I tend to lose the die rolls and take tons of damage from it.   I take more damage from Mana Crypt then I take from Dark Confidant.  If you don't have Tinker to get rid of it I don't think you should be running Mana Crypt.  Having to play an Engineered Explosives for 0 to not die to Mana Crypt is pretty terrible.  Your mileage may vary if you are more lucky with die rolls then I am.

Trinisphere answers Gush decks pretty well.  I'm thinking I might want to put the 1 of Trinisphere back in my board since I played two burning oath decks.

White has Rest in Peace is pretty good versus Dredge. It does nerf your Snapcaster Mages and Yawgmoth's Will but you can board some or all of those out. Other then that Grafdigger's Cage is good because its also decent versus Oath.

@Samoht
Back when I saw Empty Gush in the meta I had a Trinisphere and a extra Flusterstorm in the board.

@DubDub
Costing 6 vs Costing 8 is a big difference in castability.  I don't know if I would board Wurmcoil without Goblin Welder or Mana Drain.

[Pokey]

After playing against you on Saturday, I find myself liking this deck idea a lot.  I think I'll play around with a similar idea, and see if I can make it work.

[personalbackfire]

@kirika
Yea that’s a valid point that cavern makes creatures uncounterable.  However, going off the UW list that I have seen (mostly by Justin), I don’t really have to worry about bob or snap. Trinket isn’t the biggest deal as it just fetches top or lotus most of the time and I don’t really find salvagers that good of a card. From what I have read, and always heard, most of the time the salvagers deck doesn’t even combo out. I would think the most annoying creature that would be annoying to deal with it being uncounterable is Vendilion Clique since it’s comes into play ability is quite relevant.  Against other versions, with black making bob uncounterable would be annoying to deal with. However, as you pointed out I am already running STP main to deal with creatures, as well as my own Bob, Snap, and Clique.

Yea I hear the top deck tutor card disadvantage thing, which is why I am not running Mystical. However, with vault/key and will in the deck it is pretty hard not to run vamp to get what you need. Also, vamp (and mystical for that matter) is good with counterbalance in play. I can’t see cutting the vamp.

It is really important to not lose to your own mana crypt, especially if I am planning on taking infinite turns as a way to lock games up. That’s why adding it would make me also want to add tinker. Adding tinker makes me want to add a bot, so I’m not sure. The other thought I had was I could just add the 5th mox, but mana crypt is essentially 2 off color mox in one so it’s pushes me to want to play that.
I like the trinisphere idea a lot. Thanks! I forgot that control slaver used to run that back in the day as a way to deal with combo decks.

@pokey
Cool! Let me know if you end up liking it, or something similar. I think there is a ton of different directions you could take playing cb/top in vintage.

[Kirika]

@personalbackfire
Cavern might not be so good in your deck if you want double blue asap to land Counterbalance quickly.  If your running Lotus Petal to get double blue quickly why not Mana Drains?

I can see running Vampiric Tutor in your deck because it does find Counterbalance/Top and is good with Counterbalance in play.   I just don't like the card disadvantage and life loss is relavent when your taking damage from Dark Confidant.

I lost to my own Mana Crypt more often then I lost to Dark Confidant damage even with Blightsteel in my deck.   Confidant card draw usually puts you ahead so you win and  you can mitigate Dark Confidant damage with Top and Jace.  Your bound to lose some flips in long control match ups and die to your own Mana Crypt if you don't get rid of it via Tinker, Gorilla Shaman etc.

I took out the Trinisphere for more Workshop hate since I kept losing to Workshop but time to put it back in especially with Regrowth Gush being a deck now.

[Pokey]

After playing around with a similar deck idea, I found myself disappointed every time I drew Counterbalance.  It's just not very good without Top, and overcommitting to the strategy wastes too many deck slots.  I always felt that I wanted Mana Drain in that slot whenever I drew it.

You could just cut the Counterbalances and superfluous Top, and play esper control.  That seems pretty legit.

[personalbackfire]

After playing around with a similar deck idea, I found myself disappointed every time I drew Counterbalance.  It's just not very good without Top, and overcommitting to the strategy wastes too many deck slots.  I always felt that I wanted Mana Drain in that slot whenever I drew it.

You could just cut the Counterbalances and superfluous Top, and play esper control.  That seems pretty legit.

Thanks for trying out the deck! I haven't played the deck recently or enough to know if what you are saying is true or more based on play style. Personally I wasn't sad to see a cb when I played it, though did think that the deck had some issues. Regardless, I think you are right in the fact that an esper control deck sounds pretty legit.

[Phele]

I think one important point to make Counterbalance effective in Vintage ist to bring it on the Battlefield pretty early (what is true for Mana Drain as well). It is a while ago, but I had quite good results with Counterbalance in the Sideboard of some Turbo-Tez builds, not with too many Grim Monoliths (just one and the Mana Vault) but with two Mox Opals. Maindeck i played pretty cheap disruption in form of Missteps and Flusterstorms and brought in the Counterbalances against control and storm-combo. In this kind of build all mentioned cards had lots of synergies. The plenty Sensei Tops worked well togehter with the multiple Voltaic Keys. The high number of artifacts helped to get Mox Opal online, which on the other hand helped to get out Counterbalance early. Combine this with some Repeals which are a good combination with Tops and Counterbalances as well and it feels pretty well rounded up. And you play cards with lots of different casting costs in this kind of build as the fast mana development allows you to play even higher costed cards like Tezzeret 1.0. Just some thoughts.

[Pokey]

Not sayng that Counterbalance is a bad card.  I just found it to be subpar in my experiences.  I would love to be proven wrong though, as I actually like the card a lot.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Im pretty sure 1 bob is too many