Best of the Rest

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think this is a long overdue topic and one that can REALLY help deckbuilders over time.  The purpose will be to identify the best of the REST of cards in each color for Vintage that aren't firm staples or common to all T8 decks.  Obvious ones like big blue, yawg will, etc are great, but there are some obscure gems that often get missed because people are unfamiliar with them or are trying new color combinations they are unused to.  I think it will help to have a master list of each color/color combination and update the one list as cards are mentioned or released/tested from new sets.  Some Cards don't need explanation and some should have ample explanation to show why they are great, but not commonly used.  I think we should avoid fringe cards that are super narrow in application (like thunderous wrath - great, but only good in a dedicated red burn/sensei top deck) but should include things that do a job extremely well and can have hidden versatility (like portent - which can be a pseudo timewalk or a ponder with a delayed draw, useful for comboing with topdeck tutors and sensei top...but a very fine effect all on its own in a variety of decks running blue).  Add a reply with your suggestions and an explanation of why you think it is the best unused gems and they may be added to the list.  Also, if anything is on the list that you DON'T think belongs, please explain and it may be removed (if it is too narrow, for example).  If anything could fit in several deck types or in sideboards and is rarely played, it might have a home here.

Lands
Barbarian Ring
Boseiju, who shelters all
Gaea's Cradle

Blue:
Propaganda
Thada Adel
Magus of the Unseen
Judge’s Familiar
Mindshrieker
Hesitation
Energy Flux
Curfew
Ideas Unbound
Visions of Beyond
Muddle the Mixture
Spellstutter Sprite
Negate
Devastation Tide
Temporal Mastery
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Portent
Memory’s Journey
Archive Trap
Annul
Rebuild
Meditate
Leyline of Anticipation
Stifle
Trickbind
Mystic Remora

Black:
Massacre Wurm
Mind Twist
Small Pox
Innocent Blood
Demonic Consultation
Nether Void
Diabolic Intent
Phylactery Lich
Grim Tutor
Liliana Vess
Bloodgift Demon
Sadistic Sacrement
Misinformation
Phyrexian Obliterator
Profane Command
Phyrexian Arena
Doom Blade/Go for the Throat
Perish/Nature's Ruin
Stinkweed Imp (not just in dredge)
Despise
Blackmail

Green:
Sylvan Library
Crop Rotation
Lotus Cobra
Deglamer
Exploration
Birds of Paradise
Channel
Root Maze
Elvish Spirit Guide
Noble Heirarch
Beast Within
Noxious Revival
Aluren
Saproling Burst

White:
Land Tax
Armageddon
Path to Exile
Enduring Renewal
Jotun Grunt
Glowrider
Devout Witness
Porcelain Legionnaire
Ghostly Prison
Solitary Confinement
Leyline of Sanctity
Abolish

Red:
Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon
Lightning Bolt
Viashino Heretic
Crash
Cave-in
Pulverize
Smash to Smithereens
Rack and Ruin
Gorilla Shaman
Shattering Spree
Pyroclasm
Pyrokinesis

Artifact:
Skullclamp
Mindslaver
Lich's Mirror
Helm of Awakening
Jet Medallion
Sapphire Medallion
Ruby Medallion
Emerald Medallion
Pearl Medallion
Expedition Map
Horn of Greed
Ensnaring Bridge
Nevynniral's Disk
Scroll Rack
Ratchet Bomb

Black/Red:
Dreadbore

Black/White:
Vindicate
High Priest of Penance

Black/Green:
Abrupt Decay
Pernicious Deed
Maelstrom Pulse

Black/Blue:
Lim-Dul's Vault

Green/Blue:


Green/Red:
Vexing Shusher
Artifact Mutation
Hull Breach

Green/White:
Wheel of Sun and Moon


Red/White:
Lightning Helix
Shattering Blow

Red/Blue:
Izzet Charm
Nivmagus Elemental

White/Blue:

Black/Red/Green:

Black/Red/White:

Black/Red/Blue:

Red/Green/White:

Red/Green/Blue:

Red/White/Blue:

Green/White/Blue:

Green/Black/White:

Green/Black/Blue:

Blue/White/Black:

5 Color:
All 5 "bringers of the X dawn"

Colorless
Karn, Liberated

[StanleyAugust]

In what way isn't this just a list of the most powerful cards again?

[LotusHead]

Artifacts: there are many you missed, but Sundering Titan Triskelion and Smokestack are important
Also, you missed all lands.

[madmanmike25]

Since you have Beast Within for green, I wonder if Chaos Warp for red has any merit.

[TheWhiteDragon]

In what way isn't this just a list of the most powerful cards again?

I doubt anyone would argue cards like ponder, beast within, or gorilla shaman are "most powerful cards".  What they are however, are cards that are extremely good at what they do in their color that can port into may decks.  That's the goal.  We all know which spells are the most broken of broken, but often there is a very efficient spell in a color or color combination that goes under the radar.  People getting into a format also tend to pick a pet color(s) to start with before acquiring all 5 moxen and a full playset of every dual land.  If my first mox was a pearl, I'd be looking for the best of the best white has to offer, and for new players, they may not know which spells have the best vintage applications.  For players who have played vintage a while, often they netdeck and just tweak the latest first place performer.  When they get the inkling to innovate, they don't always know what tools are most efficient for the job.  This might help.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Artifacts: there are many you missed, but Sundering Titan Triskelion and Smokestack are important
Also, you missed all lands.

Sundering titan/wurmcoil engine/Triskelion(maybe) I can see.  I think smokestack is only good in one strategy though.  Please explain if I'm missing the larger applicability.  Also Metamorph should definitely be on the list...even fish decks use it!

[A.-1.]

Is this your take on Menendian's 'Vintage Checklist'?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Is this your take on Menendian's 'Vintage Checklist'?

Unintentionally, if it is similar.  I'd imagine that list had narrow cards like goblin lackey, etc as well if it was just a list of all vintage cards that are playable/ownable.  The direction of this should be full of playables, but moreso the best of what it does for the color.  For example, Scavenging ooze is a fine creature and highly playable/ownable, but when compared to other "beats face" critters, tarmo wins.  When compared to other "disrupts the grave" deathrite probably wins.  So while it might be on a list of vintage cards to have, it's not a best of the best.  I'm sure both lists will overlap to some degree, for surely cards that are the best of what they do in their color, they'd also be vintage ownables.

[Greg]

I'm going to assume that it's safe to include Time Walk in the "blue" section.

[credmond]

ingot chewer and dismember seems conspicuously absent from the list

[serracollector]

Lotus cobra and crop rotation should be in green. When was the last time someone played portent 95 or 96? Lol.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Chewer, Cobra, Dismember, and Crop rot should certainly be there.  Birds of paradise too I believe.  It is the most efficient rainbow mana accelerator out there.  Portent may not be played much, if at all....but it's hard to argue with the power of the card.  It's basically an unrestricted ponder that can combo with effects between the shuffle and the draw (like sensei top) and can target the opponent when you are already ahead to put their worst cards as their next draw.

[brianpk80]

The list looks like it could be a good primer on "cards you should be familiar with" when you begin playing Vintage.  Definitely Smokestack and the other Workshop robots belong there. 

Also:

Standstill
Show and Tell
Flusterstorm
Rest in Peace
Stoneforge Mystic
Batterskull
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Mox Opal
Channel
Empty the Warrens
Dread Return
Bridge from Below
Cabal Therapy
Bloodghast
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Griselbrand
Emrakul
Repeal, Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth
Skullclamp
Grafdigger's Cage
Pyroclasm
Fire/Ice
Intuition
Mindbreak Trap
Auriok Salvagers
Demonic Consultation
Painter's Servant
Goblin Charbelcher
Cursecatcher

and many Lands. 

It could save a newcomer some time in getting acquainted with cards that are known quantities anyone should know.  Maybe organizing it by archetype would help since most players build in their genre rather than by colors.  There's tension between saying something is the best at a particular task but doesn't make the list because it's only used in one archetype (Smokestack, Cabal Therapy). 

[LotusHead]

Artifacts: there are many you missed, but Sundering Titan Triskelion and Smokestack are important
Also, you missed all lands.

Sundering titan/wurmcoil engine/Triskelion(maybe) I can see.  I think smokestack is only good in one strategy though.  Please explain if I'm missing the larger applicability.  Also Metamorph should definitely be on the list...even fish decks use it!

There are many shop decks that don't use Smokestack, but ones that use smokestack are the most famous of all. The decks that use smokestack don't use smokestack as it's only strategy, but it is definately an artifact played in Vintage.

[serracollector]

All the red rituals and empty the warrens? Does black rituals 1cc really empoer it over the red rituals with 15+Mox/Lotus effects available?

[TheWhiteDragon]

There are definitely several cards I missed that should be in there, but some that were mentioned i beleive are too narrow.  Example, golgari grave troll.  Stinkweed imp is actually a playable critter outside of dredge.  I play it in a few black beatings decks.  Troll, however, is not playable outside of dredge.  I think this list will be most helpful to people if we mention cards that can be used in any archetype, or at least in multiple archetypes and not pinned to one specific deck, a la smokestack.

Certainly some nice additions.  Any gold/hybrid cards I'm missing?  Lands aren't on the list, FYI.

[grungyboy]

humans, goblins and merfolk represents the tribal decks

blue:
delver of secrets

black:
hypnotic specter (ah, classic )

red:
magus of the moon and blood moon, tin street hooligan, torch fiend, simian spirit guide, seal of fire, pyroclasm, stingscourger

white:
jotun grunt, icatian javalineers

green:
seal of primordium, elvish spirit guide, wild nacatl - should have been the greatest one drop beater but too vulnerable for waste effects

r/g hybrid:
vexing shusher

these might be seem too "narrow" but for people who are into beatz and/or fish (like me) and wants to try the format, they should have their weapons of choice as well

[nightmare1016]

Black/Blue:

Shadowmage Infiltrator
Lim-Dul's Vault
Diabolic Vision

Red/White:
Lightning Helix
Figure of Destiny

[xouman]

I miss those:

blue:
magus of the unseen: one of the best answers to BSC or time vault
sower of temptation: control magic with wings.
windfall: not the best draw7. But deserves mentioning.

black:
cabal therapy: it's a good card by itself. not for any deck, but it's undervalued.

white:
devout witness:
grand abolisher:
silence
aven mindcensor:
humilty:
land tax:
armageddon

red:
viashino heretic
pulverize
imperial recruiter

green:
fastbond
hermit druid



Artifacts look more or less ok to me (I miss zuran orb and painter combo), and I could add lots of multicolor and land cards.

Btw, what's the point of this list? just a reference? Cards can be defined as powerful or not independent from other cards, but what make cards playable is the deck. Grindstone is an awful card by itself, but in the proper deck is a win condtion. Similar to Emrakul. Or oath. Even FOW has some pre-requisites. Just cards like lotus, ancestral, moxen, confidant, tarmo... are good per se. It's difficult to make a proper list...

[John Cox]

Btw, what's the point of this list? just a reference? Cards can be defined as powerful or not independent from other cards, but what make cards playable is the deck. Grindstone is an awful card by itself, but in the proper deck is a win condtion. Similar to Emrakul. Or oath. Even FOW has some pre-requisites. Just cards like lotus, ancestral, moxen, confidant, tarmo... are good per se. It's difficult to make a proper list...

Good point! Is this a list of playables or is this a list of the auto-includes?

[Oath of Happy]

Why is artifact mutation not in here?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Btw, what's the point of this list? just a reference? Cards can be defined as powerful or not independent from other cards, but what make cards playable is the deck. Grindstone is an awful card by itself, but in the proper deck is a win condtion. Similar to Emrakul. Or oath. Even FOW has some pre-requisites. Just cards like lotus, ancestral, moxen, confidant, tarmo... are good per se. It's difficult to make a proper list...

Good point! Is this a list of playables or is this a list of the auto-includes?

It's a list of good cards that excel at their function and have a degree of universality.  If you were to build a RG deck, regardless of your strategy, ancient grudge would be very good.  It is also splashable, making it even more universal.  Cards like plow are the same way.  In retrospect, cards like moat/humility probably SHOULDN'T be on the list as they need to be built around.  Not every deck can splash WW and most white decks don't want a moat/humility in play.  While those cards are certainly powerful, they are what I'd deem "niche".  Damnation has BB, but it is more universal in its usefulness to several deck strategies and would even be played in creature decks (as witnessed by legacy/modern) even in vintage.  The goal, I'm hoping, is a player that wants to play green and black for example (lets assume they only own bayous) can look at a list of G, B, or G/B and know the best cards for the function in those colors that don't require a single strategy to be used or an entire deck to be built around.  Skullclamp for example is a great peice to a critter combo deck, but is perfectly good in a regular critter aggro plan.

[serracollector]

then gush should not be on the list? its based on decks with nothing but islands no?

[TheWhiteDragon]

I figured it was decent as a one -of.  I used to run 1 when it was restricted as free draw, not to chain with fastbond.  I suppose it shouldn't be on though.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Some of you have some weird definitions of "best."

[psyburat]

Some of you have some weird definitions of "best."

I concur.

Since removal requests are allowed, I request Wrath of God be removed.  I also recommend combing Morphling.de for data on suggested cards before adding them to the list to make sure suggestions have any merit.  We want this to be useful, and as it stands this list certainly has duds.

[pony16]

I would remove:
Karn, Liberated
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Fire/Ice
Lightning Helix
Gaddock Teeg
Vexing Shusher
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Deathrite Shaman
Maelstrom Pulse
Abrupt Decay
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate
Dreadbore
Engineered Explosives
Ratchet Bomb
Grafdigger's Cage
Sundering Titan
Umezawa's Jitte
Porcelain Legionnaire
Wrath of God
Fact or Fiction
Liliana of the Veil
Path to Exile
Damnation
Pyrokinesis
Nevinyrral's Disk

and add:
Cabal Therapy
Sphere of Resistance
Street Wraith
Gitaxian Probe
Root Maze
Orb of Dreams
Lion's Eye Diamond
Survival of the Fittest
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Spoils of the Vault
Grindstone
Painter's Servant
Ravenous Trap
Stifle
Voltaic Key
Sculpting Steel
Planar Void
Yixlid Jailer
Scavenging Ooze
Basking Rootwalla
Misthollow Griffin
Sower of Temptation
Magus of the Unseen
Imperial Recruiter
Meddling Mage
Encroach
Serum Powder
Golgari Grave-Troll
Smokestack
Life from the Loam
Tendrils of Agony
Brain Freeze
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Fastbond
Gush
Hermit Druid
Undercity Informer
Balustrade Spy
Goblin Charbelcher
Auriok Salvagers
Ankh of Mishra
Price of Progress
Pyrostatic Pillar
Cabal Ritual
Seething Song
Mox Opal
Merchant Scroll

Bazaar of Baghdad
Mishra's Workshop
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Ancient Tomb
Tolarian Academy

[TheWhiteDragon]

It seems perhaps we should take a pause from adding/removing cards and figure out a clear way to define best of the best.  My intention was that it is not necessarily the most "played" cards in top 8 lists, but the best effects in a color that have a broad spectrum application.  Hermit druid is great in a hermit druid deck....but it is crap outside of a hermit druid deck.  Same issues for Golgari Grave Troll, Grindstone, etc.  Ratchet bomb for example is a card that ANY deck can use to answer a plethura of permanent-based problems.  To me, ratchet bomb is an exemplary best of the best as it is universal in use and a powerful effect.  Abrupt decay is another, that for BG is perhaps THE best spell that has amazing utility - how much it appears in T8 Vintage decklists is irrelevant.  A card shouldn't equate good with played, otherwise a card like strategic planning would have gone from bad to good to bad again simply on tourney results.  Cards like Portent/Ponder/Preordain have an inherent utility for an achievable cost that can work in any deck running blue.  That doesn't mean every deck running blue WANTS those cards, but they are powerful effects and always considerable options.

Secondly, perhaps some additional categorization might be useful - i.e. counterspell, direct damage, permanent removal, creature removal, artifact removal, discard, etc.  This sub category could be added to every color, and it is perhaps that several could fit because their effects are similar while having a different strength (i.e. force of will and mana drain).  Suggestions are welcome.

[xouman]

Then this list is not probably "Best of the best" but "utility cards that could fit in most decks on color". And if we limit this to "best utility generic cards" I would say best blue drawers/counters/tinker/time walk, best black discarders/tutors/YW/confidant, swords to plowshares/disenchant, lightning bolt/welder/shaman/grudge, tarmogoyf/claim, factories/wastelands/strip mine/library/tolarian, sol ring/crypt/lotus/moxen/SDT.

There could be others like trygon, balance, abrupt decay, fire/ice,dts... But those are the "best generic cards". Typical ones, in fact.

Should we split this list in few ones? For example:

-Cards that define decks (oath, golgari troll, tendrils, emrakul, null rod...)
-Answers to common threats (permanent destruction, counters, discarders)
-Complement cards (preordain, wastes, rituals, confidants...)

I know every person can make not just a own list, but a own classification of cards. Menendian list is already a very good way to know vintage staples, although it's done with different criteria, and lacks untested cards potentially playable.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think one underlying intent was to hit at the best cards with potential that are off the radar. New vintage players can look up any T8 report and see the bulk of played powerful cards...but cards like maelstrom pulse, portent, devout witness...are extremely good and yet are often completely off the radar.  Since this menendian list seems to be the go-to for vintage playables and there are several best of threads, perhaps this is best revamped as "underplayed best ofs?" That would get at the innovation I was truly hoping to encourage.