Slivers

[psyburat]

For those of you who have been keeping up with the M14 spoilers, you may be aware that the creature type Sliver is looking to be iterated for the fourth time this summer.  With New World Order, the code name for Wizards' attempt to simplify the game and drive down complexity creep that began with Shards of Alara and M10, we see the creature type receive something that seems to go against the mechanics that were showcased in the past: the addition of "you control" to each Sliver's hive effect.  While many players have cursed at Wizards for this change, as well as the strange artistic direction that has been taken, eternal players can celebrate with the possibilty of their old favorites possibly returning with almost all of their function remaining.

And celebrate they shall!  Just as the printing of Master of the Pearl Trident as the NWO Lord of Atlantis, we've already had spoiled for us the NWO Muscle Sliver:

Predatory Sliver - 1G
Creature - Sliver
Sliver creatures you control get +1/+1.
1/1

What we've also seen, thanks to the work of Joel Lim, Matt Bliffert any many other northeastern vintage players, is the emergence of Merfolk as not only a playable archetype, but one that can win multiple tournaments (in a row, no less).  Merfolk is a tribal deck that features a handful of Muscle-sliver like effects, as well as creatures that can draw cards, counter instants and sorceries, and provide unblockability for the team against the blue decks of the format.  The support for the deck is simply counterspells, tempo-based mana denial, and the ability to avoid opposing counterspells and Chalice of the Void in Cavern of Souls.

So how could Slivers learn from this and, perhaps, prove to be an entity of its own?  The tools for Sliver decks are amazing, and although they lack the exact tools that have made the Merfolk archetype succeed, there are a few Slivers that provide functionality that the Merfolk don't have.  Harmonic Sliver provides artifact and enchantment destruction, which compounds throughout the game as more Slivers enter to battlefield.  Crystalline Sliver blanks removal and Jace, the Mind Sculptor's unsummon effect.  The 5-color nature of the Slivers allows them to utilize all 5 moxen in a way that Merfolk simply can't.

I provide for you my starting point.  Like most starting points, the ending point will look much different.  However, players are drawn to decklists as a tool for criticizing and enhancing the game, and therefore it would be foolish not to at least provide a 60 as a debating point.  This build features two of the spoiled Slivers, the other one being Striking Sliver:

Striking Sliver - R
Creature - Sliver
Slivers you control have first strike.
1/1

Cavern Slivers

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Harmonic Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
4 Winged Sliver

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall

4 AEther Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

[Samoht]

My only concern is the legitimate relevancy of Islandwalk versus the relevancy in flying coupled with the 8 copies versus the 4 copies (Lords vs Winged). One of the things that makes Merfolk so efficient is that the Lords are multi-functional (pump + ability), where as the Muscle/Sinew/Predatory are just awkward Crusades.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I like this a lot.  Slivers, I always thought, have been amazing and only needed more +1/+1 slivers.  Predatory Sliver is the 3rd pumper that puts them on the map.  I'm not really sure so many of the flying slivers are needed since the first strike sliver makes them fairly potent on the ground.  maybe 2 of the flying slivers are okay.  I have always been a fan of necrotic sliver.  For 3 mana, you kill anything - including planeswalkers (liliana/jace), lands (tabernacle), and critters (tarmogoyf) that might cause problems for the sliver horde.  Harmonic is great for stomping workshops (if you get one in early or can land an aether vial) and oath.  I do think oath could be a problem still, so the sb would need 4 grafdiggers.  Also, since you are rainbow anyway, some abrupt decays might be possible.I don't see really where this has any advantage over merfolk (you are actually more susceptible to wasteland), but it has always been an awesome tribe.  I think the mana base needs work.  Unlike merfolk that can drop just 2 islands and go to town, you can get screwed if you get hammered by wastelands.  I'd think finding a couple extra mana slots might help.  13 lands is crazy slim.  19 mana including artifacts and then 4 vials....but still seems low.  Also, since you are running a ton of cheap beaters, why would you NOT run time walk?  You have 0 removal outside of harmonic, so I'd really advocate for at least 2 necrotic slivers.  They just handle anything.

[TheWhiteDragon]

One other thing merfolk has that I didn't mention is card draw.  Slivers has no card draw, but merfolk gets silvergils which make them freebie 2/1s basically.  I also agree that having the lords giving double abilities (pump + tapping/islandwalk) is big.  Still, the monocolor is the biggest plus to merfolk.  They can also utilize daze with basic islands, which helps a ton in the early tempo war.  Harmonic and crystaline are really the only thing that makes slivers "better" than any merfolk, but that comes at a great cost in mana vulnerability.  I'd love to see slivers win something.  Got my 4 engineered plague ready just in case .

[psyburat]

My only concern is the legitimate relevancy of Islandwalk versus the relevancy in flying coupled with the 8 copies versus the 4 copies (Lords vs Winged). One of the things that makes Merfolk so efficient is that the Lords are multi-functional (pump + ability), where as the Muscle/Sinew/Predatory are just awkward Crusades.

It's very possible the deck doesn't even want Winged Silver, and would actually prefer some number of another Sliver, Phantasmal Image, Thalia or non-creature utility.  Islandwalk as a free rider is nice, and when it's not a free rider it might be better to focus on other tactics than evasion.

[Protoaddict]

I suspect slivers to have the same issue in vintage as legacy. They are just are not as good as merfolk at a counter game and not as good at zoo as aggro. Slivers has more variety within the ranks and have more lords, but the creatures they have by themselves are simply not as good as merfolk.

Were I to try to make them work I would consider running hibernation sliver. Being able to bounce a creature with harmonic over and over is game over against shops. Once you have those 2 in the list you are actually doing something other decks are not doing, and you really just need to shore up your other matches.

I also think crystalline sliver is over rated in this format. Slivers are not fast enough to begin with and play a slower game, so having shroud will not help you push damage through. Being directly targeted feels fairly rare to be honest, swords and bolt are not this decks biggest issue. If you run hybernation instead you can reuse the ETB trigger on harmonic while still protecting your sliver.

Slivers have 0 game against dredge, storm style decks, and against blue they are an average match up at best. So you'll probably need to run some leylines or very specific and narrow hate cards.

[Guli]

It is faster than you might think. Especially with Winged Sliver, you are often looking at a 2 turn clock when there are a couple muscle effects.

It is strange, the feeling, you have all the broken spells in the world, but the slivers just are too fast. It happens.

+

I agree the  1/1 first strike sliver is strong. I think with the blue one to control the game, and with the red one to control the combat step, some mutavaults, muscle effects, cavern, maybe opposition sliver to deny mana on the board while you deny mana topdeck, seems interesting.

[Prospero]

@Psyburat

Regardless of where this ends up (as a Vintage deck, or as a cool list that doesn't end up being played), I like the idea behind it.  Having that many lord effects is definitely a good thing, and Caverns/Vials make the mana requirements a little less strenuous.

I'd probably like a few more lands, a little more disruption, etc., but this is a good effort. 

[brianpk80]

I loved the whole post.  Mutavault and Shapesharer are excellent Slivers and the latter helps with some problematic robots & Demons.  Vial, Manlands, and a draw engine => Sliver Standstill.  Gemhide Sliver is decent v. Shops.  Wish you success. 

[vaughnbros]

I think slivers definitely has that unique advantage of all their creatures are lords essentially and in a format where board sweepers are few and far between this can be very brutal.

Pertaining to this particular build.  13 lands seems a little light, especially with 5 strips.  Why not cut the vials for something like ancient ziggurat?  Maybe Mutavaults over strips?  And I was wondering if is ancestral actually reliably castable in this?  I don't really know the answers to these just some things to explore.

[MTGFan]

I feel as if this needs more disruption.

How about shoe-horning in 4 Thalia? She's not a Sliver per se, but as a 2cc creature she can be Vialed in rather easily as this Vial will be set to "2" for most of the game.

[serracollector]

Slivers dont have draw?!?! My friend Edric would like to have a word with you.

Seriuosly tho I tested out just a uwg shell with 8 muscle slivers, 4 winged, 4 edric, 4 phantasmal image, and lots of counters and it was doing descently already. Having 12 pumpers for my images to clone is just silly.  Not to mention metamorph if u so choose. Remember crystalline dont stop meta or image but it DOES stop your images from being killed. Also seems something rather good to test the 4x regrowth in, kill my sliver? Ok regrowth, cast swing ftw.  Cavern slivers. Yummy.

[Samoht]

Scooping to EE is somewhat problematic, but the bigger problem is presented above - this isn't more consistent, faster, or more broken than the other creature decks. In Merfolk you have much better counter game as everything is FoW fodder and you get to streamline your mana base while keeping redundant consistency with 11-12 lords 8 generating islandwalk and 3-4 generating twiddle. Goblins is just faster than any other creature based win. I think at the end of the line, when you have something close to the optimal sliver list, you will still be behind Merfolk and likely Noble Fish in the ranks of  quality creature decks.

[Guli]

Scooping to EE is somewhat problematic, but the bigger problem is presented above - this isn't more consistent, faster, or more broken than the other creature decks. In Merfolk you have much better counter game as everything is FoW fodder and you get to streamline your mana base while keeping redundant consistency with 11-12 lords 8 generating islandwalk and 3-4 generating twiddle. Goblins is just faster than any other creature based win. I think at the end of the line, when you have something close to the optimal sliver list, you will still be behind Merfolk and likely Noble Fish in the ranks of  quality creature decks.

But Slivers beat all of these other creature decks

[Samoht]

Scooping to EE is somewhat problematic, but the bigger problem is presented above - this isn't more consistent, faster, or more broken than the other creature decks. In Merfolk you have much better counter game as everything is FoW fodder and you get to streamline your mana base while keeping redundant consistency with 11-12 lords 8 generating islandwalk and 3-4 generating twiddle. Goblins is just faster than any other creature based win. I think at the end of the line, when you have something close to the optimal sliver list, you will still be behind Merfolk and likely Noble Fish in the ranks of  quality creature decks.

But Slivers beat all of these other creature decks

I mean, if Fish becomes a dominant deck that needs to be meta'd for, maybe.

[jlim17]

As someone that played Slivers competitively (ex. GP Philly - Extended, for everyone else as old as me), I too would love to have this deck work out. I hope to find some solutions to what I'm about to say to make this viable.

Barring other high-powered slivers getting spoiled, this deck seems relegated to 2nd fiddle at best in the realm of Fish. What allowed Merfolk to be playable in Vintage was not just the printing of a 2nd LoA (I'm taking it back, eat it Library!), it was that Merfolk already had enough tools and it just needed the redundancy. In contrast, slivers has the redundancy (sinew/muscle) but still needs the tools. So far M14 is just giving it more of what it doesn't need. Although this could now be the best creature deck, you have to be able to beat the other pillars to be viable. The combat step is not this deck's problem, its the lack of card advantage and disruption it needs to beat the other pillars.

Also of note: Harmonic costs 3, the exact cutoff in casting cost you don't want against the matchup you want to see it in the most. Necrotic doesn't seem viable as it costs 3cc with an expensive activation. Its also more of a control card than an aggro card, so unless we build a control sliver deck, this doesn't seem to fit. You def need harmonic, but in all, these two are essentially slots devoted to overcosted effects in vintage. You won't have enough time to develop your board and win before they go broken, in theory.

Cutting winged slivers hurts your FoWs, but you'd know the optimal number of blue cards you need since you may have played Noble Fish a few times.

All this being said, this was basically the same argument everyone had against Merfolk being viable. I will def be trying to make Slivers work.

Its possible the answer is a more prison/hate build, and going with null rod/stony silence. But maybe I'm being biased as that's what we did with merfolk and its stupid to try to make slivers a better merfolk deck. If you do go rod, obviously the aether vials should get cut, along with probably Ruby and Jet, and time walk should go back in, as each turn you're really just trying to buy an extra turn to attack. Prob more counters/blue cards, maybe 2x revokers. 2x Jace and 1x Crucible if you're like me and want to get greedy at first .

But maybe they print Sphere Sliver, Thoughtseize Sliver, Tutor Sliver, and Null Sliver in M14 and you're off to the races! Just make sure to play an island or two for me

[Protoaddict]

If they make a cursecatcher sliver for 1 the deck goes from Meh to playable pretty quickly. If they make a Cremate sliver on top of that the deck goes from Playable to Tourney playable.

T hoes I think are the 2 missing pieces. Basically ETB effects are what you need to make these things competitive, and I am not sure that is within the design parameters that WOTC is pushing.

[Guli]

Did you guys see the 4cc Double Strike sliver? I think that one is insane.

[msg67183]

I threw a list together, it's probably not that good, but it has an "oops I win" combo in it that people won't see coming:

Mana:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Lotus Petal

Slivers:
4 Gemhide Sliver
4 Heart Sliver
   Anthems:
4 Predator Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
   Utility:
4 Harmonic Sliver
   Combo:
4 Sliver Queen
4 Basal Sliver
4 Training Grounds

The sideboard is undecided, but the Combo seems viable. Allow me to explain it:

You get a Sliver Queen into play and a Training Grounds into play, Queen's ability now costs 1 mana. Basal Sliver allows you to sacrifice the token to create BB, use one to make a token, make infinite mana, regardless of Sphere Effects, make infinite Slivers, and if there is a Heart Sliver out GG!

People may say how Sliver Queen in Vintage? 5 mana? It's not that hard with Gemhide Sliver. Another thing to note is Gemhide Sliver cannot be Phyrexian Revokered!

The Sideboard could probably have Stony Silence, Essence Sliver, Darkheart Sliver, Tormod's Crypt, Energy Flux, etc. only time will tell.

[Vennie]

I threw a list together, it's probably not that good, but it has an "oops I win" combo in it that people won't see coming:

Mana:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Lotus Petal

Slivers:
4 Gemhide Sliver
4 Heart Sliver
   Anthems:
4 Predator Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
   Utility:
4 Harmonic Sliver
   Combo:
4 Sliver Queen
4 Basal Sliver
4 Training Grounds

The sideboard is undecided, but the Combo seems viable. Allow me to explain it:

You get a Sliver Queen into play and a Training Grounds into play, Queen's ability now costs 1 mana. Basal Sliver allows you to sacrifice the token to create BB, use one to make a token, make infinite mana, regardless of Sphere Effects, make infinite Slivers, and if there is a Heart Sliver out GG!

People may say how Sliver Queen in Vintage? 5 mana? It's not that hard with Gemhide Sliver. Another thing to note is Gemhide Sliver cannot be Phyrexian Revokered!

The Sideboard could probably have Stony Silence, Essence Sliver, Darkheart Sliver, Tormod's Crypt, Energy Flux, etc. only time will tell.

U don't even need the training grounds for the combo.

If u have haste sliver + gemhide + basal + queen you have infinate mana and slivers. (Pay 2 to make a sliver token, tap for 1 mana of any colour with gemhide, sac with basal for 2 black mana, pay two black for new sliver and repeat till u have enough to go letal with).

[msg67183]

Tokens don't have haste unless there is a Heart Sliver in play.

Never mind missed that you already said Haste Sliver.

[msg67183]

So if the Training Grounds come out, what should go in? Homing Sliver to search up combo pieces?

[Guli]

So if the Training Grounds come out, what should go in? Homing Sliver to search up combo pieces?

No, chalice of the void.

Also don't need 4 Sliver Queen. Also don't need so many muscle's but I get that one

[psyburat]

Spoiled roughly an hour ago:

Galerider Sliver - U
Creature - Sliver
Sliver creatures you control have flying
1/1

Beyond cases like Mental Misstep and Chalice of the Void with one counter, this guy feels much better over Winged Sliver, and even negates the awkward feeling of having multiples since it isn't necessarily below the curve in multiples (but still obviously redundant).

The baseline Sliver deck from the original post, with a strict swap of Winged Sliver for Galerider Sliver:

Cavern Slivers

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Harmonic Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Striking Sliver

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall

4 AEther Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

[TheWhiteDragon]

with such a beefy horde, I don't get why Timewalk isn't an autoinclude.

[Samoht]

I don't think you want the full Mox suite here. I'd also want some other form of CA than just Ancestral. Whether it's Bob or some other engine like Gush, you should look to get more cards when the creatures run out.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think Edric (with all the sliver evasion) is probably the best CA engine.  With that cheap flyer sliver, you should be drawing 2 a turn by turn 3.

[MaximumCDawg]

I don't think Edric gets slivers over the hump.  Merfolk gets to use powerful card advantage engines that are cheaper than Edric all while doing it's own thing. 

[psyburat]

I don't think Edric gets slivers over the hump.  Merfolk gets to use powerful card advantage engines that are cheaper than Edric all while doing it's own thing. 

I'm sure there are relevant Slivers with "enter the battlefield" triggers that, while not specifically carrying the phrase "draw a card", are comparable to Silvergill Adept in their ability to create incremental card advantage.

[TheWhiteDragon]

And While Silvergil says "draw a card", Edric says "draw X for every turn hereafter"