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Author Topic: Slivers  (Read 16310 times)
Stormanimagus
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« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2013, 10:34:51 pm »

And While Silvergil says "draw a card", Edric says "draw X for every turn hereafter"

With one key difference. Silvergil gives you a card now while edric can theoretically get you 0 cards when they bolt him.

-Storm
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2013, 08:38:19 am »

After trying to test this list, try being the operative word, I have much bigger issues with this list than something as silly as a draw engine in a fish deck.  The mana base is absolutely awful.  I had to give myself free mulligans to 7 to even find a hand where I could cast things, and then against decks with wastelands and revokers/counterspells forget about it.  8 color proudcing lands is simply not enough to cast spells from a 4 color deck with critical double colored spells in it.
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psyburat
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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2013, 10:11:36 am »

My list is knowingly absolute garbage, but people like lists.
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How very me of you.
MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2013, 12:48:59 pm »

Merfolk Lords also do two things for the price of one.  Master / Lord gives evasion AND a boost.  Commander gives a boost AND becomes a massive single threat on his own.  Reejary gives a boost AND a tap ability.  The aforementioned Silvergill is the weakest, but it's the only one that cantrips, so it has a big role to play.

Slivers, by comparison, don't have two-for-ones.  Each Sliver does one thing.  Except for Sedge Sliver; he does two things.  That makes them inherently less efficient than Merfolk.  Add in the fact that Merfolk get the benefit of a rock-solid manabase while Slivers have a questionable mana base, and you have to ask: why bother?

Well, if you are going to bother at all, I think you have to take Slivers in a direction that Merfolk does not already do better.  Merfolk have a lot of trouble with resolved permanents.  Some lists run bounce, that's about it.  Slivers can handle it. There are assorted other things Slivers can do, and Merfolk cannot.

To this end, I think the Slivers that do something unique from Merfolk, and thus are worthy of discussion as headliners in a Sliver list, are:

Harmonic Sliver (I hear they run artifacts in Vintage)
Cautery Sliver (Ping them hatebears)
Gemhide Sliver // The New One (Merfolk don't get mana acell)
Heart Sliver (Merfolk dont get haste)
Hibernation Sliver (Merfolk don't get bounce)
Dormant Sliver (Merfolk don't get CA on every folk)
Homing Sliver (Merfolk dont get a tutor)
Horned Sliver (Merfolk dont get trample)
Necrotic Sliver (Merfolk dont get Vindicate)
Plague Sliver (Huger than merfolk, albiet painful to run)
Screeching Sliver (Merfok dont get mill)
Sedge Sliver (Merfolk don't get regen)
Telekenetic Sliver (Taps better than Merfolk do)

Then I think you splash some other Slivers that Merfolk could copy just to get enough of a deck:

Crystaline Sliver
Muscle Sliver // Sinew Sliver // The New One
Galerider Sliver // Two-Headed Sliver

Okay, so where do you go from here?  Well, cutting the Slivers down to only two or three colors would be a great start.  Harmonic is probably the best Sliver in your deck when it's relevant, so I think you probably want to be in GW.  Past that... hard to say.

Say you go GWr.

4x Harmonic
4x Cautery
4x Muscle
4x Sinew
4x Two-Headed

And then you back up this package with a Christmas Beats style-disruption plan including Swords to Plowshares.

Or, you could go black for:

4x Harmonic
4x Necrotic
4x Sinew
4x Plague
4x Dark Confidant

Then you'd probably want a discard disruption suite and something like Jitte to help offset the life loss you get from the Confidant and Plague Sliver.

Blue takes you into the traditional Bant list:

4x Harmonic
4x Galerider
4x Muscle
4x Sinew
4x The New Lord One

But this seems like exactly the "Why not run Merfolk" list.

Alternatively, you can just run 12 5-color lands and choose the best slivers.  Something like this:

4x Harmonic Sliver
4x Galerider Sliver
4x Sedge Sliver (have some basic swamps to tutor for)
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Cautery Sliver

This gives you two slivers that function as removal, at least one sliver for evasion, and two lords, one of which does double duty.

If I were to flesh out this list, I'd go like this:

Creatures (22)
4x Galerider Sliver
4x Cautery Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Sedge Sliver
4x Harmonic Sliver
2x Mutavault

Distuption (16 - Season to taste, but this 5-cc makeup hits all pillars)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Root Maze
(Probably Steel Sabotage, yard hate, etc in the board)

Mana (22)
4x City of Brass
4x Cavern of Souls
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Flooded Strand
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Savanna
1x Swamp

Something like this gives you alot of flexibility in your manabase and lets you make a deck that isn't just an inferior copy of merfolk.  Might be a fun place to start.
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brianpk80
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« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2013, 08:50:03 pm »

Very thorough, MCD.  It's like a Sliver Memorandum.   Smile
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2013, 12:34:54 am »

What I lack in experience or tournament success, I make up in an obsessive knowledge of cards drawn from years of brewing hundreds of casual decks and a willingness to plumb the Gatherer for anything relevant to a deck-building challenge.

But thank you!

EDIT:

Here's another thought.  What about this core for a super-janky deck featuring the awesomeness of Screeching Sliver:

Know the Top (8)
4 Field of Dreams
4 Lantern of Insight

Control the Top (13)
3 Predict
4 Screeching Sliver
2 Nightveil Specter
4 Portent

Don't Lose While You Do Those Things (17)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Doom Blade
3 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

Mana (22)

« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 12:40:03 am by MaximumCDawg » Logged
Guli
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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2013, 03:27:15 am »

Finally someone is suggesting screeching sliver and lantern. That is the way to go for sure.

There are now 8 blue (FOW) 1 cc slivers, you also have Crystalline and Telekinetic Sliver. Sometimes you go for their land, tap them and put them on bottom, and sometimes you just do the opposite, you make sure they flood and only draw land. It is an unique way of controlling the game (though JTMS +2 ability does this too).

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vaughnbros
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« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2013, 07:01:55 am »

MCD I think you have gone over too far to the opposite spectrum that Noble was at.  Far too many lands/spells compared to the number of slivers.  Sedge sliver while a powerful card puts a lot of tax on your mana base by requiring you to have a swamp and ample black mana out at all times.  Why not go a little bit different route and utilize the most unique and powerful effects slivers have to offer, Gemhide sliver and brutally powerful 5 drop slivers.  Sliver overlord, queen, and legion shouldn't be too difficult to cast if you have gemhides, city of brass, caverns, ancient zigg, and a full set of moxen in your mana base.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2013, 11:24:40 am »

I dunno, I really don't have an opinion on what makes Slivers playable in Vintage.  I guess I do know this:

1) To compete, aggro decks must have strong, meaningful interaction with their opponent.  Too many cards that do nothing but beat face leaves you critically vulnerable to combo of various stripes.

2) If Slivers is to be a thing, it will have to be doing something very different from playing 12Lord.dec, because Merfolk already does that with more efficiency and a better mana base.

Beyond that, who knows?  The Lantern / Screeching is really hilarious, and I love the concept of Turn 1: land, mox, lantern, screecher, go.  To make that work, though, you'd better be able to deal with whatever they have in their hand or tutor up.  It's no good to control the topdeck if a single Goyf or Tinker in their opening hand destroys you.  That's why I think BU, for Duress and Force is probably the only way to go.  If you go that route, other interesting cards (in addition to those I mentioned in my last post) include Enigma Sphinx and Foreshadow.  After that, old standbys like Millstone don't seem too efficient.  I dont know if this is any good, but it's totally unique.

MCD I think you have gone over too far to the opposite spectrum that Noble was at.  Far too many lands/spells compared to the number of slivers.  Sedge sliver while a powerful card puts a lot of tax on your mana base by requiring you to have a swamp and ample black mana out at all times.  Why not go a little bit different route and utilize the most unique and powerful effects slivers have to offer, Gemhide sliver and brutally powerful 5 drop slivers.  Sliver overlord, queen, and legion shouldn't be too difficult to cast if you have gemhides, city of brass, caverns, ancient zigg, and a full set of moxen in your mana base.

I know, my deck suggestion is rough.  I don't think you can avoid running so many spells, though, because we do not have good disruptive Slivers.  If they printed Tidehollow Sliver or Spellstutter Sliver, this tribe would instantly catapult to Vintage playable, imho.  But, we don't have that.  In the absence of a disruptive Sliver, I think you really do just need to go for the most powerful ones.  I doubt you need much more than a single lord, maybe two.  Once you have two lords and your board is 2 or 3 3/3 or 4/4s, what in Vintage is really going to stop you?

As for the mana strain, I don't think the swamp requirement is so bad.  Tutor up a swamp, and then keep it open.  The most common card killing slivers is probably going to be Bolt, and you won't see more than one of those per turn probably.  One regeneration shield is probably plenty.

As for the 5-drop Slivers being powerful, sure, but they're also five-drops.  Even with Moxen, you're looking at turn 3 plays, probably.  (Turn 1 mox, land, gemhide is only 3 mana). I don't think bringing a Nic-Fit style midrange aggro deck to a Vintage tourney is a recipe for success, but who knows?  At least it's doing something different from Merfolk.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 11:29:59 am by MaximumCDawg » Logged
msg67183
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« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2013, 04:53:44 pm »

Slivers just made it to the Finals of a tournament recently. Here is the report:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45470.0

My question is, does this list seem optimal? What should be changed?
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