Vintage "Duel Deck" Ideas

[jcflox]

Greetings everyone (first post here).

I am interested in people's input on the following idea:

My brother and I would like to build a couple Vintage decks that have a high "replayability" factor and are designed to be roughly equal in power.

Neither of us have played Vintage, and never cast any Power cards, which we would like to change.

This concept is similar to the "Duel Decks" that Wizards prints.

There wouldn't be a need for sideboards, but "sideboard" type cards could be included in each deck to help make them more equal.

After my initial research into this topic, I am liking what I see of Martello Shops MUD, Oath of Druids and Jace Control.

This might not be possible, but I would love to hear some thoughts!

Cheers - JF

[Smmenen]

Build the first and second place decks from the Vintage Championship last year. 

[Prospero]

Greetings everyone (first post here).

I am interested in people's input on the following idea:

My brother and I would like to build a couple Vintage decks that have a high "replayability" factor and are designed to be roughly equal in power.

Neither of us have played Vintage, and never cast any Power cards, which we would like to change.

This concept is similar to the "Duel Decks" that Wizards prints.

There wouldn't be a need for sideboards, but "sideboard" type cards could be included in each deck to help make them more equal.

After my initial research into this topic, I am liking what I see of Martello Shops MUD, Oath of Druids and Jace Control.

This might not be possible, but I would love to hear some thoughts!

Cheers - JF

Martello is a strong call for the Shop deck, though it hasn't performed well recently.

If you were going to build Oath, I'd look to build Steve's Burning Oath list, which is very strong.

I'm not sure which deck you mean by Jace Control, but I'd probably build U/W Bomberman as the third deck.

U/R Landstill, Dredge, BUG Fish and a few other decks comprise an important part of the metagame, but I think you've chosen well, to start.

[Protoaddict]

The strange thing to deal with is Dredge.

If you build 2 decks to face each other and not face the field, then if you ever took them to a sanctioned event dredge would eat them alive. You'll notice in a great many deck lists, X cards are specifically in the deck for dredge (usually in the sideboard) and they are potentially dead in other match ups, or at least no where near optimal.

I would almost recommend building 4 decks and having one be dredge, if you really want the full understanding of the format.

[personalbackfire]

Greetings everyone (first post here).

I am interested in people's input on the following idea:

My brother and I would like to build a couple Vintage decks that have a high "replayability" factor and are designed to be roughly equal in power.

Neither of us have played Vintage, and never cast any Power cards, which we would like to change.

This concept is similar to the "Duel Decks" that Wizards prints.

There wouldn't be a need for sideboards, but "sideboard" type cards could be included in each deck to help make them more equal.

After my initial research into this topic, I am liking what I see of Martello Shops MUD, Oath of Druids and Jace Control.

This might not be possible, but I would love to hear some thoughts!

Cheers - JF

Back when my collection was bigger I used to try to have two decks for me and my brother to play with as well. I would say build what you (or your brother) likes playing and playing against.

For me I had TPS and a Tezzeret deck together (it was back then) since I enjoyed playing with and against decks that would interact with your opponent in a 'big blue' sort of fashion.

So if this was current times and I wanted to build duel decks I would put together a Gush variant and a Bob/Jace deck.

However, even in blue you have a ton of options (oath, fish style, big blue, gush, landstill) so do what you find fun.

[BC]

If you are starting with just two decks, I would recommend a Workshop deck and a blue control deck.  Something like Martello Shops vs. Grixis Control would be pretty good.  If you were to expand to 4 decks, I would add in a Dredge build and either Turbo Tezz or BUG Fish.

[jcflox]

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Since I am not planning on playing any sanctioned events soon, I will stick with the two decks for now.

It seems like my leaning toward Martello Shops has received some nods.

I am still undecided about the second deck though, here are the finalists for #2:

- Grixis Control from the 2012 Vintage Championships
- U/W Bomberman
- Steve M.'s Burning Oath

All three seem fun...if I have to pick one, which one might provide the more interesting/balanced matches against a Martello Shops build?  Trying to avoid something that just depends on who wins the coin toss! 

- JF

[BC]

Well Burning Oath vs. Shops is VERY much a coin flip matchup.  I would recommend the winning list from Gencon last year.  It really is a great deck, and a good representation of what is fun about Vintage.

[Smmenen]

My Burning Tendrils deck is probably not a good choice for a duel deck because it's too complex to play and requires a high level of mastery of the format.

People think it's an Oath deck, but in my last tournament report I pointed out that I only played Oath (let alone activated it) in 40% (10 out of 24) of the games I *won* (not simply played).  That's why I don't use Oath in the name -- it creates the misleading impression that your primary route to victory is Oath, when its well under 50%. I used Oath in well under 50% of the games I won, and far less than that overall (I played Oath in none of the games I lost). In contrast, Tendrils is used in the vast majority of games.

If you want a duel deck, I'll reiterate my original suggestion: use the top two decks from the Vintage Champs last year.

[psyburat]

Keeping in one of the WotC styles, go for Duel Decks: Jace vs Karn with a JTMS deck of your choice (Bob Control or Bomberman) and the Karn Liberated MUD deck from BoM.

[Samoht]

Keeping in one of the WotC styles, go for Duel Decks: Jace vs Karn with a JTMS deck of your choice (Bob Control or Bomberman) and the Karn Liberated MUD deck from BoM.

I'd suggest running Karn, Silver Golem first, Metalworker is so bad right now it's not even funny.

[Smmenen]

Keeping in one of the WotC styles, go for Duel Decks: Jace vs Karn with a JTMS deck of your choice (Bob Control or Bomberman) and the Karn Liberated MUD deck from BoM.

I'd suggest running Karn, Silver Golem first, Metalworker is so bad right now it's not even funny.

Except there were a ton of Metalworker decks in the BoM top 8.  They were pretty important -- decisive in fact -- in determining those match results if you watch the videos. 

[Samoht]

Keeping in one of the WotC styles, go for Duel Decks: Jace vs Karn with a JTMS deck of your choice (Bob Control or Bomberman) and the Karn Liberated MUD deck from BoM.

I'd suggest running Karn, Silver Golem first, Metalworker is so bad right now it's not even funny.

Except there were a ton of Metalworker decks in the BoM top 8.  They were pretty important -- decisive in fact -- in determining those match results if you watch the videos. 

Except that Europe and America are two very different metagames.

[vaughnbros]

There would be a number of options for Planeswalker duel decks:
Karn the Liberated (Metalworker shops), Jace (Bomberman/Landstill), Tezz Agent of Bolas (Strix Control), Tezz the Seeker (Turbo Tezz), and Liliana of the Veil (BUG fish/Jund), but clearly if wizards was going to print dual decks for vintage it would have to be... Ral Zarek in Stasis versus Koth in TMWA.

[Smmenen]

Keeping in one of the WotC styles, go for Duel Decks: Jace vs Karn with a JTMS deck of your choice (Bob Control or Bomberman) and the Karn Liberated MUD deck from BoM.

I'd suggest running Karn, Silver Golem first, Metalworker is so bad right now it's not even funny.

Except there were a ton of Metalworker decks in the BoM top 8.  They were pretty important -- decisive in fact -- in determining those match results if you watch the videos. 

Except that Europe and America are two very different metagames.

Except that you made a blanket statement about Metalworker without that caveat. 

[jcflox]

Again, thanks for the valuable input!

I am going to try out the following Duel Deck matchup:

- Grixis Control, 2012 Vintage Champ

- Workshop, 2012 3rd/4th Place (no Planeswalker, but no real need to stick to that aspect of the Duel Decks theme)

@Smmenen - Your "Top 2" suggestion makes a lot of sense, but I think I might personally enjoy an Aggro more than Prison Shops build.  Also, thank for clarifying on the Burning Tendrils deck.

Cheers - JF

[Samoht]

Keeping in one of the WotC styles, go for Duel Decks: Jace vs Karn with a JTMS deck of your choice (Bob Control or Bomberman) and the Karn Liberated MUD deck from BoM.

I'd suggest running Karn, Silver Golem first, Metalworker is so bad right now it's not even funny.

Except there were a ton of Metalworker decks in the BoM top 8.  They were pretty important -- decisive in fact -- in determining those match results if you watch the videos. 

Except that Europe and America are two very different metagames.

Except that you made a blanket statement about Metalworker without that caveat. 

My statement has that caveat built in based on my region which is expressly noted in all of my posts (the signature). I have surmised that the average poster on TMD can rationally understand that and therefore have not differentiated between the two metas before nor will I in the future. I won't comment on the European scene as I am largely ignorant of its goings on at the inner core levels. Merely looking at the top 8 and pretending that gives you insight into what is good there is a mistake I'm not about to make. Several factors go into top 8'ing or even winning that go beyond ideal deck construction, and their lack of inclusion in analysis often blows my mind. Card availability plays a huge role(significantly more than the proxy environments) in what decks are played, and that to me gives a warped meta game that I'm not interested in for anything other than Vintage Champs, which is months away with 2 new sets between then and now.

But I digress a bit too much. Long story short, I don't think you'll get much value out of playing Karn Liberated in your Shop build.

[The Atog Lord]

Jace, of Jace vs Chandra, is already a perfectly fine Vintage deck.

[Smmenen]

Keeping in one of the WotC styles, go for Duel Decks: Jace vs Karn with a JTMS deck of your choice (Bob Control or Bomberman) and the Karn Liberated MUD deck from BoM.

I'd suggest running Karn, Silver Golem first, Metalworker is so bad right now it's not even funny.

Except there were a ton of Metalworker decks in the BoM top 8.  They were pretty important -- decisive in fact -- in determining those match results if you watch the videos.  

Except that Europe and America are two very different metagames.

Except that you made a blanket statement about Metalworker without that caveat.  

My statement has that caveat built in based on my region which is expressly noted in all of my posts (the signature).

Except that some new player or reader here will probably not know what your region is from your signature, nor will they know what that means for your view of the metagame.   Blue Bell and NEV might not signify anything about your region to them (it doesn't to me, for example).  Blue Bell could be the name of a store or a city, and even if its the latter, that doesn't tell anyone who isn't from there where it is - state or region.   These acronyms or terms aren't self explanatory.  Nor does having "pro tour philadelphia" suggest a region of play either, since most players travel far for Pro Tours.  Finally, expecting anyone would be expected to read your signature to make sense of your post or provide context for your metagame is silly and unrealistic.  

I have NO IDEA what Team RST is.  Never heard of it.  Your signature is as opaque as could be.  Far from providing an explanatory context, it looks like gibberish.  90% of the TheManaDrain.com readers, who are global, will have never heard of any of those tournament except the Pro Tour.  It take an extremely parochial viewpoint to think otherwise.  

The idea that your signature clarifies your clearly wrong statement about the viability of Metalworker assumes way too much about the average persons knowledge of what your signature means and, even if they know what it means, what that fact represents in terms of metagame dynamics.

This person wants to build duel decks -- not reconstruct a regional metagame.  Your claim that Metalworker is very "bad" right now is provably false by the results of the BoM having 3 Metalworker decks in the top 8 of the largest (inarguable) and most prestigious (arguable) Vintage tournament of the year.  

For the purpose of building a fun duel deck to experience Vintage, including a Metalworker deck seems as legitimate and valid as any other choice.

I won't comment on the European scene as I am largely ignorant of its goings on at the inner core levels. Merely looking at the top 8 and pretending that gives you insight into what is good there is a mistake I'm not about to make.

There is a difference between saying something is "good" and saying something is "very bad."   You said Metalworker is very bad, which implies its unplayable in Vintage.  Yet, there were 12 in the BoM top 8 -- which means, at the very least, its playable, and therefore, not "very bad".   When a card appears in 3 different decks in a 300 player tournament top 8, it is by definition, playable, and therefore, not "bad."  Looking into a top 8 *can* actually tell you that, since all you need to know is if a card is playable -- not how good it is.

As for insight, one need not rely on a Top 8 decklist to have insight.   You can also watch the videos -- of which there are a half dozen, and observe how the matches play out to see which cards were good in those matches and why.  

[Purple Hat]

I would definitely build  a metalworker deck if I was trying to build a fun workshop deck.  metal worker just feels BROKEN whenever it survives to be tapped.

If you weren't so inclined to go for a shop deck I'd recommend something like the talrand gush decks.  Gush decks have such high velocity.  I always have fun playing them, but it's rough to play them against shops all day. 

The other thing that is pretty fun if you're just looking to go broken is something like the article steve wrote a while back about the battle of the banned that he and some friends put together.  It's an older article so some updates would be necessary, but if you want to go broken looking up the decks that got cards restricted in the past 5 or 10 years wouldn't be a bad way to go.  Link below.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/7699-The-Banned-Plays-Again-An-Encore-For-Magic8217s-Greatest-Decks.html

[jcflox]

Just thought I would show where I am at so far:

Vintage Duel Deck #1 - Grixis Control - 2012 Championships Lanigra base w/ edits
1x Darksteel Colossus
2x Dark Confidant
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Ingot Chewer

1x Ancestral Recall
1x Black Lotus
1x Brainstorm
1x Demonic Tutor
4x Force of Will
1x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Mana Crypt
2x Mana Drain
1x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Ponder
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Time Vault
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Voltaic Key
1x Yawgmoth's Will

1x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island


Vintage Duel Deck #2 - Martello Shops - 2012 Championships Forino base w/ edits
1x Duplicant
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
2x Lodestone Golem
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Batterskull

1x Black Lotus
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sol Ring
3x Sphere of Resistance
4x Tangle Wire
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Trinisphere

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Mishra's Workshop
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
4x Wasteland

Again, to re-iterate, these decks are intended for a couple new Vintage players to go head-to-head and have fun while casting some Power9 (ala Wotc Duel Deck style).

I have been reading Brian DeMars' SCG articles and need a reality check in case I am drinking too much of his Kool-aid:

For instance, I made the following "sideboard" swaps, based on his matchup analysis (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/24877-Grixis-Control-vs-MUD-Matchup-Analysis.html):

Grixis Control:
-3 Mental Misstep
-2 Flusterstorm
-1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Mountain
+4 Ingot Chewer
+1 Lightning Bolt

Plus the following swap, based on his pro's/con's of BSC:
-1 Blightsteel Colossus
+1 Darksteel Colossus

(Note: However, he suggested swapping in a Wurmcoil, but my novice mind wonders why you would downgrade one of your Tinker-targets/win-conditions so heavily.)

Next, based on his article from 5/14, specifically the Restricted List section (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/26163-On-Vintage.html), I made the following changes:

Grixis Control:
-2 Dark Confidant
-1 Snapcaster Mage
+1 Tezzeret the Seeker
+1 Ponder
+1 Thirst for Knowledge
 
Martello Shops:
-2 Lodestone Golem
+1 Wurmcoil Engine
+1 Batterskull

These will probably be the most shocking to some, but my intention is to make these decks fun and give variety in the games that are played.  He mentioned that 4x Lodestone Golem really makes it tough for opposing decks on the draw.  For the Grixis changes, he mentions JTMS, Bob, Mana Drain and Time Vault as cards possibly needing some reigning in...I chose to just reduce the counts a little to add a few other interesting cards, but don't want to take them down to 1x copy each, as JTMS in particular, as I understood it, is a main win-condition for this deck.

I am close to getting all these cards rounded up to do some actual play testing, so probably things will start to become a little clearer after a few rounds head-to-head.

Cheers - Jesse

[aahz]

From the lists you've got above, I suggest the following changes:

Grixis
Out:
    Mystical Tutor
    Thirst for Knowledge
    Snapcaster Mage
    Ingot Chewer
    DSC
In:
    Dark Confidant
    Mana Vault
    Myr Battlesphere
    Goblin Welder
    Viashino Heretic or Steel Sabotage

You DON'T want DSC in place of BSC because DSC is strictly worse. I would replace it with Myr Battlesphere, which is a very entertaining card, especially if you slip in a Welder. In addition, replacing one of the Chewers with either Heretic or Sabotage keeps the anti-artifact cards varied. If you are playing big Tez against shops, you should also be playing a Mana Vault. I would not go below three Bobs (same will be true for Lodestone) because the deck will lose some of the flavor and consistency of the central unrestricted cards. Mystical isn't that great in this match up, while Thirst and Snapcaster (into flashback spell) are on the expensive side manawise. You might also consider swapping something out for a Rebuild. I also don't like Ponder in this matchup, but it's probably fine to run it.


Shops
Out:
    Steel Hellkite
    Phyrexian Metamorph
    Phyrexian Revoker
    Mishra's Factory
In:
    Lodestone Golem
    Triskelion
    Buried Ruin
    Crucible of Worlds

For Shops, I hear what you are saying re: Bob/Lodestone, but I'd still stay at 3 copies each. Pulling some duplicate cards (Hellkite, Metamorph, Revoker) and replacing them with singletons (Trike, Crucible) will give the deck longer play value. Note that you can still search up what you need with Forgemaster. Buried Ruin is a fun card in this sort of deck, so I would recommend playing at least one. Other cards to consider are single copies of Smokestack, BSC, or Metalworker.

Hopefully that gives you some food for thought. Have fun!

[jcflox]

Wow, thanks for all the great input, aahz.

Those all seem like great edits...any reason you chose Mystical instead of Vampiric to take out?

EDIT: dur...dumb question...nevermind.

EDIT#2:  Here are the "final" lists for now...I have all the cards ready to go for when my brother comes to town in a couple weeks.

Vintage - Grixis Control
3x Dark Confidant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
3x Ingot Chewer
1x Goblin Welder
1x Myr Battlesphere

1x Ancestral Recall
1x Black Lotus
1x Brainstorm
1x Demonic Tutor
4x Force of Will
1x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
2x Mana Drain
1x Steel Sabotage
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Rebuild
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Time Vault
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Voltaic Key
1x Yawgmoth's Will

1x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island


Vintage - Martello Shops
1x Duplicant
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Lodestone Golem
3x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Batterskull
1x Metalworker

1x Black Lotus
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sol Ring
3x Sphere of Resistance
3x Tangle Wire
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Trinisphere
1x Smokestack

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Mishra's Workshop
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
4x Wasteland
1x Buried Ruin


I will start with these lists for playtesting and swap a card or two + tweak the copies if needed.

Cheers!

- JF