Melira Combo

[Protoaddict]

I have been toying with this idea for some time. The Melira combo works in Vintage in two very important ways:

1.)  Deals with damage based decks by gaining infinite life.
2.)  Makes Blightsteel a lot less scary.

Basically Melira combo shuts off a lot of win conditions, and if you account for Jace mill with some other card (Vraska the Unseen) to eat Jaces, suddenly you have a list that can deal with anything. Here are my initial thoughts for the list. I am sure everything in this list should be there, I am just not sure about the numbers.


4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
3 Viscera Seer
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Dark Confidant
1 Murderous Redcap
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Unearth

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Edited title, post for spelling - Prospero

[AmbivalentDuck]

Vraska seems markedly worse than Maelstrom Pulse. Even Thrun is arguably a better answer to Jace. The fundamental problem with this deck is that it's a three-card combo, all of whose pieces have issues with Pyroclasm. And on top of it, it has issues with both faster decks and the already ubiquitous Dredge hate.

There's no compelling reason to play this over Dredge.

[Protoaddict]

Vraska is a reuseable removal spell. Since Jace tends to come in multiples one after another and not at the same time, I felt that it would probably be more potent than a 1 shot spell, since if you got off the combo Jace is like the only thing your worried about.

If you feel that this is a poor mans dredge, let em ask do you feel like this would be better severed in a bug shell? I mean bug sees tons of high ranking play and there are a lot of commonalities. The combo itself is strong against common wincons right now, especially Meliras ability to kill infect, so it feels like its something that merits exploration.

[vaughnbros]

If you feel that this is a poor mans dredge, let em ask do you feel like this would be better severed in a bug shell? I mean bug sees tons of high ranking play and there are a lot of commonalities. The combo itself is strong against common wincons right now, especially Meliras ability to kill infect, so it feels like its something that merits exploration.

Is it really a strong combo?  All of your combo pieces, Visera Seer, Kitchen Finks/Murderous Redcap, and Melira, are all currently unplayed and in theory seem weak card choices on their own.  Its also easily disrupted not only by graveyard hate, but also by removal and revoker.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Vraska is a reuseable removal spell.

You expect to resolve a 5 cmc removal spell AFTER Jace hits the board?

Also, a 5 CMC removal spell? This is Vintage. When you resolve a 5 mana colored spell, it's with the expectation that you win on the spot.

[Protoaddict]

There are other combos where you have "dead" pieces where they are not even bodies that can attack and block. It is a strong combo in that it wins you the game, and the redcap is usually not required as you can scry infinite for it and at that point you have as much life as you want and cannot die to infect because of melira. All the pieces can attack and supported by abrupts can usually get in for lethal over the course of a game.

Finks is not weak to removal, in that edicts and abrupt don't kill it alone, and swords means you went 1 for 1 and gained 5 life.
Seer trades 1 for 1 with removal and nets you a free Scry. IF they have a revoker realize they just named Viscera Seer instead of one of your walkers.
Redcap can come down for value to being with as it can nuke a confidant or whatever on the other side, and also has persist.

Melira is the only card that basically just trades with removal.

Gravehate is the more realistic issue for the deck, but maybe that means it should have a sandbag sideboard that swaps into an aggro style list, more oozes and removal?

As for Vraska, its just an idea. Maybe its not proper as a counter Jace card but reusable spot removal that also can win you the game seems worth of at least investigation.

[A.-1.]

You'd be better off trying this in Modern.

[xouman]

I like the idea. Yes, it seems less reliable than BUG, but has the combo effect that can steal a game in the spot.

Vraska the Unseen seems the worse card, though. It has very high cost (bad with confidant and wastelands). I'd play duress in its place, good synergy with cabal therapy.

i still find weakeness against BSC (even it does not infect, it's a big robot and we have little ways to get rid of it)

[vaughnbros]

You'd be better off trying this in Modern.

To this point.  I have two questions.  What is really being gained by dropping down two eternal formats from modern to vintage?  Is a nearly card for card modern list playable in vintage?

[Wagner]

Your mana curve is very low, and you have plenty of basics, I think you coudl use off-color moxes since you have 14 card that benefit from having 2 mana on turn 1.

[Protoaddict]

You'd be better off trying this in Modern.

To this point.  I have two questions.  What is really being gained by dropping down two eternal formats from modern to vintage?  Is a nearly card for card modern list playable in vintage?

Its to try to find something new. Wont know unless we try and all that.

Yes this started out of a modern deck but the thought process was that Melira is a great counter to one of the most common problems in vintage (blightsteel). Then by virtue of how the combo works it beats decks that win from damage, and since it runs 4 decays it (can) beat decks using timevault. Those 3 wincons are 3/4s of the way the meta wins, with the last one basically being Jace mill, so I felt this deck may be well suited to at least try and adapt to vintage to see how it works.

would not consider this deck for legacy for instance, because the meta does not support posion like vintage does.

[A.-1.]

I think you're misunderstanding how Vintage decks operate. Yes, decks like MUD, Landstill, and Dredge eventually win with damage. You're not going to be able to assemble your combo against those decks because they will either lock you out, counter/kill your dudes, or win several turns quicker.

[Protoaddict]

Yes but at the same time, against the control matches the deck is Aggroish enough that can switch gears and just win in a prolonged war of attrition. Finks and ooze are not slow clocks.

I mean I avoided Blue in this build to streamline the mana base, but is it just that people think this wont work without counters?

[MaximumCDawg]

I don't think Melira is doing anything in Vintage.  She requires too many interlocking pieces, making her slow and easily disrupted.

[TheShop]

Melira needs more Glen Elendra Archmage...that 2 card combo is game ending vs several decks and each piece is far more relevant on its own.

Maybe this type of combo would fit into a Bant shell boarding the finks for Aggro matchups.

Blue gives a singleton flash too...which is humorous with persist.

[MaximumCDawg]

Melira needs more Glen Elendra Archmage...that 2 card combo is game ending vs several decks and each piece is far more relevant on its own.

Maybe this type of combo would fit into a Bant shell boarding the finks for Aggro matchups.

Blue gives a singleton flash too...which is humorous with persist.

Hm.  I must admit, I'd never even thought about Archmage.  Shows you how much Modern I play, I guess!  This particular combo actually seems pretty brutal once it's on-line.  Trouble is, I have a hard time seeing how you sneak up to five mana (four for Melira and one to have a counter online) without getting hammered by better decks in the meantime.

Re: Vraska. She's not a terrible card in a vacuum, but she compares to Lux Cannon.  That's not where I want to be in Vintage.

[TheShop]

Please don't imply that I play Modern. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

Re: Vraska. She's not a terrible card in a vacuum, but she compares to Lux Cannon.  That's not where I want to be in Vintage.

I disagree. In a vacuum, she's still not Tez, Ad Nauseam, Memory Jar, or even Jace TMS. Even Natural Order -> Terastodon or Woodfall Primus is better here. She even compares unfavorably to Pithing Needle as an answer to Jace.

[Guli]

With all do respect (your innovation and new approach is welcome) I think you (poster of the list) are being unfair. Why on earth should people like me play with 4 Thalia and further support the card with cards like this for example: Canonists, Stony, Chalice, Missteps, Sin Collector, Gaddock, Thorns, Thoughtseize, Meddling Mage, ...

What makes you think you can skip counters or any form of disruption? Apart from the blue brokeness, there is almost no breathing room against Workshop these days if you attempt to play a deck without Force of Will! Very specific plans must be made to survive and control the game.

I advise you to search for recent top 8's of Workshop and test them against whatever new list you make. Do this for other match ups as well.

[MaximumCDawg]

Re: Vraska. She's not a terrible card in a vacuum, but she compares to Lux Cannon.  That's not where I want to be in Vintage.

I disagree. In a vacuum, she's still not Tez, Ad Nauseam, Memory Jar, or even Jace TMS. Even Natural Order -> Terastodon or Woodfall Primus is better here. She even compares unfavorably to Pithing Needle as an answer to Jace.

That's a very busy vacuum you got there.  Yea, she's inferior to other cards that exist, which is why she sees no play.  As a card taken in isolation, the concept of repeatable removal for 5 doesn't strike anyone as objectively terrible, which is what I was getting at.  She's a Lux Cannon that can fire immediately if you need it to. 

If you need BG removal, you have so many better options:
Abrupt Decay
Maelstrom Pulse
Pernicious Deed
Heck, even Putrefy is better, probably.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Since his directly mentioned concern was decking via Jace and that he needs multiple repeats with the removal to address multiple Jaces, I suggested Pithing Needle since it nerfs Jace proactively for and isn't dead against the rest of the format.

As to repeatable removal for 3BG in a vacuum, it's clearly far worse than high odds of winning on the spot. The going rate for repeatable removal is arguably 1 or 2 cmc depending on what type of permanent you're removing. Ie. His deck has no need to remove multiple enchantments.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I actually run Vraska in one of my vintage decks.  She's very good in modern and decent in legacy, but she's really pretty good in Vintage.  You are looking at the wrong ability though.  It's her +1 and -7 that make her good.  The -3 is just bonus of helping when you think "I NEED to blow that thing up ASAP".  In any matchup that is not full of weenies, she is immediately 6 loyalty.  In 2 turns after you drop her, you have 3 assassins that kill on contact.  That is in no way terrible.  Against weenie decks, she can still ramp up until you sweep the board and then use her ultimate (you have to make the deck around it). Even if they try to kill her with their critters, you are taking out 3 weenies to 1 planeswalker, or their biggest threat (in which case you are best to -3 it if it can do 6 damage in one shot).  She is CA in this way.  I like her as a secondary win in oath personally.  They aren't dropping critters into my oath, so I get several uses out of the -3 if needed (or can get to her -7 while they have no blockers).  If I don't get oath/orchard online or they somehow extirpate my oaths, then I have a kill condition that protects herself.  

Vraska isn't a card you can just stick into any deck.  It's a card you need to build around.  But, that being said, she is by no means not vintage-worthy.  Abrupt decay/maelstrom pulse are better if your goal is to blow something up, but Vraska is a win con.  In a deck WITH 4 decay, 2-3 pulse, and other ways to handle/deter creatures (oath, damnation, ensnaring bridge, liliana, etc) and control elements (thoughtseize, duress, hymn) you can easily make a powerful deck that uses Vraska at her best and her -3 only as necessary. As you can tell, I just outlined a basic BG deck that can utilize her well (and does by my testing).

[MaximumCDawg]

I actually run Vraska in one of my vintage decks.  She's very good in modern and decent in legacy, but she's really pretty good in Vintage.  You are looking at the wrong ability though.  It's her +1 and -7 that make her good.  The -3 is just bonus of helping when you think "I NEED to blow that thing up ASAP".  In any matchup that is not full of weenies, she is immediately 6 loyalty.  In 2 turns after you drop her, you have 3 assassins that kill on contact.  That is in no way terrible.  Against weenie decks, she can still ramp up until you sweep the board and then use her ultimate (you have to make the deck around it). Even if they try to kill her with their critters, you are taking out 3 weenies to 1 planeswalker, or their biggest threat (in which case you are best to -3 it if it can do 6 damage in one shot).  She is CA in this way.  I like her as a secondary win in oath personally.  They aren't dropping critters into my oath, so I get several uses out of the -3 if needed (or can get to her -7 while they have no blockers).  If I don't get oath/orchard online or they somehow extirpate my oaths, then I have a kill condition that protects herself.  

Vraska isn't a card you can just stick into any deck.  It's a card you need to build around.  But, that being said, she is by no means not vintage-worthy.  Abrupt decay/maelstrom pulse are better if your goal is to blow something up, but Vraska is a win con.  In a deck WITH 4 decay, 2-3 pulse, and other ways to handle/deter creatures (oath, damnation, ensnaring bridge, liliana, etc) and control elements (thoughtseize, duress, hymn) you can easily make a powerful deck that uses Vraska at her best and her -3 only as necessary. As you can tell, I just outlined a basic BG deck that can utilize her well (and does by my testing).

What's your list?  I'm all for rogue strategies in Vintage.  I just can't believe that a 5cc walker that might win the game if left unmolested for 3 turns and if your opponent doesn't have answers for three weenies on the 4th turn is worth playing.  Heck, an unchecked Goyf will end the game in that space of time at a moderate size, so will Golem.

[Protoaddict]

So this is not some final list or anything, which is why it was posted in the creative section.

What I am looking for is more of a brainstorm around this combo, not people telling me my list is bad. If overall you don't think the combo has any legs for vintage at all, that's fine though do explain why. Otherwise I would love to know how to make the combo viable. Is it adding blue? Is it adding more hate and less combo? Glen Elendra Archmage for instance was a great idea.

I mean Salvagers is a 3 card combo deck, one piece of which is restricted, and 2 other pieces which are lackluster or ultimately bad outside of the combo, and it sees tons of play. None of the pieces in that list really impact other strats like the pieces in Melira can, so I though it was at least worth a look at right?

[psyburat]

What have you tested it against so far?

[TheShop]

4 gsz
1 Melira
X silver bullet package...

This wouldn't look all that different from a bant list that has seen success in the past...and Melira is a BSC out.

So, I think the idea isn't bad, and Melira + a combo dude or two can give you outs in some matchups.  The issue involves reinventing the wheel and including several non traditional cards simultaneously.  Even if the concept worked, it would be difficult to pinpoint which part made it successful.

[Guli]

Melira is not a Blightsteel out, this has been discussed before, she only turns it into a Darksteel Colossus.

What I am looking for is more of a brainstorm around this combo, not people telling me my list is bad. If overall you don't think the combo has any legs for vintage at all, that's fine though do explain why. Otherwise I would love to know how to make the combo viable. Is it adding blue? Is it adding more hate and less combo? Glen Elendra Archmage for instance was a great idea.

The feedback you got is spot on. First things first, hold ground against some of the most played decks. Survive. If you just scoop half of the time, it does not matter how many great idea's come out of the audience.

[TheShop]

I don't defend the deck.  However, this is a post in the creative forum where the ideas of other members may help shape deck concepts in their seminal forms.

[Guli]

I think Null Rod could be a good life saver for this deck. The idea's are welcome from my point of view.

[Protoaddict]

I have been giving this list some thought.

The whole point of it is to protect and speed out your combo. As long as you do that, your combo basically trumps other wincons, or just wins on the spot. Dredge may be faster (we can account for that), but other lists are probably not. I wanted to keep this 2 colors originally, but maybe I am wrong.

I am playing with this idea now, would love thoughts before I sleeve up. Notes below

2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Viscera Seer
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Dark Confidant
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Deathrite Shaman

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Mental Misstep
1 Mizzium skin
1 Ancestral recall
1 Timewalk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Unearth
1 Mystical tutor
1 Merchant scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Sylvan Library
1 Hurkyls recall

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Misty rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant catacombs
2 Tropical island
1 Bayou
2 Underground sea
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island

In adding blue, had to drop some of the more mana hungry stuff, so took out the walkers and a few of the bodies. If the deck is going to win now it will probably be from protecting its combo.

Had to kill the land destroying package as the deck is still pretty mana hungry. I don't need to kill their lands to win, it was nice but not as nice as casting my spells.

Added counter suite and blue power, plus some filtering and more tutors to get combos and protection. Went down to one unearth but it is so powerful that I want to keep 1 for sure. Redcap stays in as a 1 of. In addition to being the wincon for the decks combo, it takes out a TON of relevant dudes, sometimes more. A single redcap can take out a confidant and then threaten another if they ever try to attack.

Mizzium skin is a foil for things that try to hit Melira. This is a concession to abrupt decay being in the format and the counter pack being crap against it. It probably needs to have an additional 1 or 2 copies in the board.

Speaking of the board, this is where I fall apart a bit. I think it needs to be something like this:

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Mizzium skin
8 dredge answers (2 Tormods crypt, 2 Nihli spell bomb, 4 Ravenous trap???)
2 Mental Misstep
1 Stripmine?

But this I'm totally lost on, would love some help here as well.