Leyline of Kitaki

[TheWhiteDragon]

So, if this needs to be moved to the card creation forum, so be it - but I think this topic/idea is much broader than the card itself, so i'm posting here.

Leyline of Kataki (for lack of a better name)
2WW
Enchantment
You may start the game with LoK in play if it is in your opening hand.
Artifacts have an upkeep of 1 mana. (wording not standardized, I know)

So in discussion with a friend, we agreed that workshop is of the same power level as bazaar (in dredge).  We're totally fine with bazaar however, because you can cast answers (even a leyline) that really hampers their plans.  The deck is totally beatable.  Shops on the other hand can be unbeatable.  Not saying it is invincible and impossible to beat, but there are lines of play where it is simply unbeatable (unless you run FoW and I don't think people should HAVE to play blue to avoid unbeatable shop plays).  You can play against shops with a hand of basics, chewers, grudges, and claims...and they can just play chalice + golem, turn 2 metamorph + sphere, turn 3 tangle wire...while you just play basic land, pass...basic land, pass...basic land, pass...scoop.  Not only is it an issue that a hand full of hate could be useless against shops, but the density of spheres (including metamorphs and tangles) is CRAZY dense to where this can be a common opening play.  Workshop is in the opener as often as FoW, but tombs + moxen also create this same scenario of "You play nothing all game".

But, we don't want to ban/restrict anything.  I think bazaar is just fine and useful in different archetypes (madness, dragon, etc) and shops could even be used for some kind of funky combos.  The lands can both be unrestricted and balance be restored with a Leyline answer.

Every "FAST" attack has a leyline answer to it.  Dredge has leyline of the void, oath and storm have leyline of sanctity, and even leyline of anticipation can be a shop-useable leyline against combo.  EVERY deck in the format can be answered in some way that requires the opponent to answer your answer - except workshops.  Blue can try to counter some answers, but not all (decay/leyline/cavern->critter), and other colors can cast removal/discard to stop your answers...but shops doesn't have to worry about any answers at all.  It just plays it's game and you cast 0 spells until it wins.  There is a "free" way to beat almost any strategy....except shops.

The problem I see is not that the deck is unbeatable, because it totally is, but that it can win by locking you out of a game completely regardless of your skill level, hate/answers in hand, or approach to the match.  You could run basics and a grip of 4 1cc answers, and never hit the mana to cast a single one of them.  That's a problem to me.

Now while leyline of Kataki seems like an "anti-shop" card, it is no more narrow or targeted than say LotV is an "anti-dredge" card, or LoS is an "anti-oath" card.  Yes, it is harsh against one specific matchup moreso than others...but so are the other 2 leylines I just mentioned.  Shops could also win through Leyline of Kataki even easier than Dredge can win through LotV.  Dredge basically HAS to remove LotV to win - or slow cast bloodghasts and stinkweeds.  with LoK, shops could still play a land and a shop and drop a turn 2 golem and pay its upkeep.  I'm not suggesting Leyline of Energy Flux which would be absurd and totally gunning to ruin 1 deck.  But a 1 mana upkeep is not only manageable, it has far reaching applications.

Consider the following:
Moxen all become lotus petals.
Spheres require upkeeps, making them more symmetrical (because they are TOTALLY one-sided as is in shops).
Vault/Key now requires upkeep of 2 + 1 for activation.
Greedy hands of 1 mana + vial now become even more dependant on the vial living.
A golem or revoker or hellkite is totally maintainable while a SWARM of golems and metamorph copies is MUCH harder to keep on the board.
LoK + land kill can even answer BSC.

I think LoK is actually as maindeckable as null rod (which is a common maindeck).  You can still play bomberman and activate your stuff.  Top is still useable, but now costs 1 to upkeep.  You can still PLAY and USE moxen....just not every turn until you remove LoK.

The only major downside I could see to a deck is affinity - which basically gets toasted unless they run 1cc enchant answers (which are conveniently available in three of the five  colors).

Thoughts?

[quicksilvervii]

Thing is, Leyline of the void doesn't change dredge.  It just boards in cards to a 5c shell anyway.

This card, single handedly, kills mono brown.  There is nothing they can do to remove this.



I don't like it.

Especially since you just drop this turn zero, and what, real kataki turn 1/2?

[Bibendum]

So can we stop with the crying about shops? Whats shops top 8 representation these days? How many shop decks top 8'd the biggest event in the us this year? 1 and it wasn't a deck that was going to lock you out of the game. People seem to consistently hate on shops no matter what they are doing. The archetype is barely putting up results but lets try to neuter it more. Sure it effects other decks like LLOTV but if you weren't playing against dredge you wouldn't have it in your board to possibly bring in during other situations. This card will kill an archetype that is currently in its lowest point in probably 12 calendar months.

[TheWhiteDragon]

LotV most certainly does change dredge.  Dredge has to remove it to win.  Boarding in 5+ cards dillutes their deck, but also they need answer + rainbowland + bazaar + dredger to answer a turn 0 drop.  Shops, even mono brown, could just tap a wasteland to pay for lodestone or whatever fatty they have and beat face.  Brown could also run N. Disk if LoK became common hate.  There are MANY games where I've landed Kitaki against shops, and they didn't scoop....they just paid 1 mana for their bigger threats and had to win more slowly without being able to lock me out completely.

And this isn't crying about shops because they are dominant.  I personally don't care about T8 showings.  If they were 7/8ths of all top 8s or had not a single top 8 in 3 years, it wouldn't change my point.  The thing is that every deck - even dredge which is predicated on NOT interacting on the stack - has to have an answer to some form of hate or counterplay.  Decks like dredge and oath, in fact, while offering fast and powerful kills, do so at the risk of being slammed by very efficient, fast hate (LotV/LoS, grafdiggers, etc.).  Dredge, even if it ran 4 FoW and 4 Unmask could not stop LotV.  Oath, no matter what it runs, can't stop LoS or abrupt decay.  Shops (and it is really a function of spheres+friends more than the namesake card) is the only deck that could never board in a single card and win games where the opponent does nothing but play land and pass the turn, regardless of how much efficient hate held in hand.  There is no sphere/counterproof answer to a horde of spheres while there are great answers to every other strategy.

Kitaki, once resolved, is not even close to game ending for shops.  I don't see why this would be different, except it has the application of hitting many more artifact type decks while also making moxen on both sides worthless.  If I land Kitaki, can you not land golem and just use your non-shop land to pay for it?  Can't you just tap one ancient tomb to pay for a golem and metamorph, or a wurmcoil and a tangle wire?  Hell, shop decks can win through resolved ENERGY FLUX which is literally twice as bad.  I just see this as a sphere-proof way to stop the burying under spheres to the point where a player can't cast a spell from start to finish of a game.  It's not crippling as much as it is annoying to shops, and it really is no worse than kitaki to a non-triskelion shops deck.

To point - shops was not dominating when trinisphere was unrestricted, but it was rightly restricted because sitting across from an opponent who is just goldfishing while you draw and discard and pass is not fun at all.  They restricted trini (so you can now have 1, not 4) and since then they have printed Thorn of Amethyst, Lodestone golem, and Phyrexian metamorph.  So now we have 12 more spheres (8 of which add a significant clock) instead of trinispheres 2-4.

Again, i think you are looking at my proposition the wrong way.  I'm not bitching about shops.  I'm not complaining about their effect on the metagame.  I have no beef with their top 8 representation, or lack thereof.  I have a problem with the fundamental concept of having a player's plays completely stopped to which there is no answer, and the very strategy that you try to fight is what keeps "answers" from being castable.

[Vennie]

As a side note:

Oath can win through Abrupt Decay. Just play Misdirection...

[TheWhiteDragon]

Yes, any deck can win through any hate - there are counteranswers for every answer.  The issue again is a deck for which there is no answer (outside of playing a blue deck with 4 FoW).  Not to say that anti-artifact hate is altogether ineffective, but I just feel every deck should have a vulnerability to some form of answer, even if they are well equipped to deal with it.  The situation where a deck can completely goldfish against a non-force of will player and that player never gets to cast a single spell all game is troubling to me.  The fact that 12 more sphere effects have been printed since trini was restricted makes the situation of just getting locked out from turn 0 onward even more doable.  That's troubling to me.

I actually play shop decks.  I love shops.  The manshow and riddler circa 2003 were my favorite decks. But it is moreso the general principle of just blanking an opponent and their 75 cards, no matter what cards they run (sans FoW) and without having to board in anything as the shops player that bothers me.  Shops don't always get perfect hands and can be beat, but I don't think a deck should be able to shut out an opponent running mana and all hate cards from ever playing a single spell just by playing their main 60.  That's just wrong to me.

And I think this card design opens new possibilities and hits moxen and vault as well.  It is not strictly shop hate, though it is good at being shop hate.

And to say monobrown can't deal with it (while being totally wrong) is not even valid since manaless ichorid can't deal with LotV either, and the deck can just adapt.