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Author Topic: MVPLS Vintage event 9-14-13  (Read 3764 times)
Calvin240sx
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« on: August 22, 2013, 02:47:35 am »

 Come out and play some vintage in central PA
Facebook info:


When: saturday Sept.  14th
         start time is gonna be 1230p for registration.
          play begins 1p

host: Calvin Hodges(Calvin240sx) and MVP Sports and Games

format: unsanctioned vintage(duh!)
               please have a decklist

where: MVP Sports and Games
          50 Redwood Dr.
           Lancaster, PA 17601
           717-435-4964(shop)
           717-419-4572(calvin)

entry fee: $30(10 card prox. 5x free, 2nd 5x $1 each)

Prizing t8 with 24 players:
1st: non-twister p10(mox/walk/vault)
2: mana drain/dual(s)($150-ish value)
3: Dual land/judge promo(s)$100-ish value)
4: dual land/judge promo(s)($80-ish value)
5-8: $50 store credit

*****had a crazy idea and i'm gonna run with it. let us cross 34 players and we'll see*****



Lots of inventory and accessories as usual. Hoping to pull out something wild for the title belt matches. No wild ideas just yet.

cheers,
cal
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2013, 11:43:52 am »

Prizing t8 with 16 players:
1st: ancestral recall
2:bazaar or baghdad
3: blue dual/judge promo(s)
4: foil fetch/judge promo(s)
5-8: $50 store credit
*should i manage to hit 25+ i will randomly pull a judge promo out of a stack of them and give one away in between the swiss rounds.

That's an AWESOME payout!!! Might have to try and come!

It's how all my tourneys pay out. soon as i figure out the right forum i will post the rest of my events. hope to see you bro.
cheers,
cal

What happened to this? I miss the awesome prize support guaranteed at 16.
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2013, 01:03:51 pm »

Prizing t8 with 16 players:
1st: ancestral recall
2:bazaar or baghdad
3: blue dual/judge promo(s)
4: foil fetch/judge promo(s)
5-8: $50 store credit
*should i manage to hit 25+ i will randomly pull a judge promo out of a stack of them and give one away in between the swiss rounds.

That's an AWESOME payout!!! Might have to try and come!

It's how all my tourneys pay out. soon as i figure out the right forum i will post the rest of my events. hope to see you bro.
cheers,
cal

What happened to this? I miss the awesome prize support guaranteed at 16.

Undersupported events obviously.
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2013, 10:08:02 pm »

I should be able to make this one! Seems awfully loose for TDG to schedule there event the same day as TPG...well glad I get to play some cards in September!!!
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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2013, 10:15:14 am »

Prizing t8 with 16 players:
1st: ancestral recall
2:bazaar or baghdad
3: blue dual/judge promo(s)
4: foil fetch/judge promo(s)
5-8: $50 store credit
*should i manage to hit 25+ i will randomly pull a judge promo out of a stack of them and give one away in between the swiss rounds.

That's an AWESOME payout!!! Might have to try and come!

It's how all my tourneys pay out. soon as i figure out the right forum i will post the rest of my events. hope to see you bro.
cheers,
cal

What happened to this? I miss the awesome prize support guaranteed at 16.

Undersupported events obviously.

not sure how much more you want mr. Edwards. i'm glad you decided to not talk behind my back and say this out loud. thank you for that. between the feature match payouts, and lower attendance, what would you suggest? if it's just belly aching I leave with this(care of a vintage player I will not name)....
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgatherer.wizards.com%2Fpages%2FCard%2FDetails.aspx%3Fmultiverseid%3D32232&h=aAQGFmv9k

cheers,
cal
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 10:39:10 am »

Prizing t8 with 16 players:
1st: ancestral recall
2:bazaar or baghdad
3: blue dual/judge promo(s)
4: foil fetch/judge promo(s)
5-8: $50 store credit
*should i manage to hit 25+ i will randomly pull a judge promo out of a stack of them and give one away in between the swiss rounds.

That's an AWESOME payout!!! Might have to try and come!

It's how all my tourneys pay out. soon as i figure out the right forum i will post the rest of my events. hope to see you bro.
cheers,
cal

What happened to this? I miss the awesome prize support guaranteed at 16.

Undersupported events obviously.

not sure how much more you want mr. Edwards. i'm glad you decided to not talk behind my back and say this out loud. thank you for that. between the feature match payouts, and lower attendance, what would you suggest? if it's just belly aching I leave with this(care of a vintage player I will not name)....
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgatherer.wizards.com%2Fpages%2FCard%2FDetails.aspx%3Fmultiverseid%3D32232&h=aAQGFmv9k

cheers,
cal


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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2013, 02:11:43 pm »

I would first suggest that you review this stickied thread.

Have you considered the lower attendance might be directly correlated to scheduling your event the same Saturday every month regardless of other events? Or perhaps the drop in prize support caused the drop in attendance and not the other way around? Whatever the cause, and I'm sure there are multiple factors, don't change anything just because I voiced my displeasure. It seems like the vast majority of your attendees enjoy your prize structure since no one else has spoken up. I'll stop my "bellyaching."

What's the Facebook link?
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 03:59:52 pm »

I would first suggest that you review this stickied thread.

Have you considered the lower attendance might be directly correlated to scheduling your event the same Saturday every month regardless of other events? Or perhaps the drop in prize support caused the drop in attendance and not the other way around? Whatever the cause, and I'm sure there are multiple factors, don't change anything just because I voiced my displeasure. It seems like the vast majority of your attendees enjoy your prize structure since no one else has spoken up. I'll stop my "bellyaching."

What's the Facebook link?

It's actually linking to Gatherer.  I'm not sure why it redirects through Facebook.  It's Pay no Heed.
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Calvin240sx
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2013, 03:08:33 am »

I would first suggest that you review this stickied thread.

Have you considered the lower attendance might be directly correlated to scheduling your event the same Saturday every month regardless of other events? Or perhaps the drop in prize support caused the drop in attendance and not the other way around? Whatever the cause, and I'm sure there are multiple factors, don't change anything just because I voiced my displeasure. It seems like the vast majority of your attendees enjoy your prize structure since no one else has spoken up. I'll stop my "bellyaching."

What's the Facebook link?

I'm a math major. Language isn't my thing. Prize support is reflected in attendance(as it is most anywhere with vintage). 24 isn't a hard number to hit(as i'd be hitting over that number).  I got no issue with you saying what ya did. I believe I actually thanked you for your candor. I was being quite serious. Any suggestions to improve the events is welcome and awesome. The same wknd thing is kind of how things are nowadays between the shops, so that point seems lost on me honestly. I'm trying to understand what you're asking for bro. Not start a pissing match. Honest bro. Do you say anything as to why other TO's don't all do the same as another TO? That hopefully explains why iI believe this to sound like "bellyaching".

Cheers,
Cal
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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2013, 01:57:22 pm »

Quote
24 isn't a hard number to hit(as i'd be hitting over that number).

Your event on:
2/9/13: more than 24
3/9/13: less than 24
4/13/13: more than 24
5/25/13: more than 24
6/18/13: less than 24 if memory serves me. There is no report.
7/13/13: less than 24 if memory serves me. There is no report.
8/10/13: less than 24

You've had less than 24 in the majority of your events. If you meant to say you had been hitting than number, you would be incorrect.

Quote
The same wknd thing is kind of how things are nowadays between the shops,

The first and third weekends are usually taken by TPG and TDG, respectively. That gives you the option to hold your event on the second weekend; up until recently, the fourth; and occasionally, fifth. You don't have to schedule an event during a weekend when another event may hurt attendance. You don't even have to schedule an event every month. Some months are just packed.

Quote
Do you say anything as to why other TO's don't all do the same as another TO?
What are you trying to say? Do I question why all TOs don't have uniform prize support? Please clarify.
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2013, 02:17:18 pm »

It's important for both sides to hear each other out here, but it's also important that we keep this above-brow.  Please, let's make sure that this thread doesn't turn personal, and that we use this as an opportunity to mend bridges.
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2013, 03:42:27 pm »

It's important for both sides to hear each other out here, but it's also important that we keep this above-brow.  Please, let's make sure that this thread doesn't turn personal, and that we use this as an opportunity to mend bridges.
Agreed. I was trying to get what Mr. Edwards was driving towards. I guess this isnt going to happen from his previous post. Prize support hasn't been an issue to anyone else to my knowledge. If you are not happy with the prizing at my events Mr. Edwards, I am sorry you feel that way.
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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2013, 04:10:39 pm »

Things have to change but the payouts have always been above and beyond IMO. Only place I ever go 0-2 drop and win a 60$ card in a free side event that I can think of Wink
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2013, 04:20:53 pm »

I remember heading out to one of his legacy events which sadly had relatively depressing attendance(8 or so).  Virtually everyone in our car walked away extremely happy and we didnt even rock the event that hard.  Even if these prizes aren't guaranteed out to 24 people they WILL be very over prized.  Calvin doesn't run bad events as far as I have seen ever. 

I don't understand why the mouths of gift horses are being viewed so intently, but it seems rather obnoxious.
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2013, 04:25:37 pm »

I'm with Calvin on this.  While his prize support structure may have been greater for his first few tournaments it was at an unsustainable level.  With the prize support as is at this event, even excluding the title belt match prizes, he is giving out over $100 more worth of cards than is coming in from the tournament entries.  This is more than a fair prize support structure as fair would actually be to pay out less than what is coming in, since a TO's time has value and buildings have overhead.  I don't think its right to expect Calvin to take huge loses for the time and money hes putting into it.

Since I know this argument is coming from someone, if you are coming to an event based on expected value you are wrong.  Factoring in gas, tolls, time spent, tournament entry, food and other expenses even Coss's events, that have ridiculous pay outs, aren't positive expected value.  These events are for those that want the enjoyment of slinging cards and hanging out with awesome people, not making money.  That's what people work jobs for.
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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2013, 06:43:31 pm »

I'll start from the beginning.

Calvin, in the post for your first tournament I misconstrued 'It's how all my tourneys pay out' to mean that all future tournaments would have a similar prize structure. I'm well aware the initial prize structure was unrealistic. I wasn't about to ruin a good thing by questioning it. I didn't need to know how you were planning to sustain that.

Then you restructured the prize support but still wanted to please as many participants as possible by keeping the side prizes. Randomly winning something is nice, but I'd rather win based on merit (making top eight). I feel it is wrong when someone who makes top eight walks away with less than someone that did not top eight. Don't get me wrong, I was very appreciative when I was given a chance to salvage a less than stellar day. But then I feel bad when top four or two split and I realize their winnings are lessened because undeserving people like myself won some random card earlier in the day. If the roles were reversed and I was the one splitting, I'd definitely want my winnings maximized. [To use an analogy: Would you rather get a trophy for placing? Or would you rather get one for participating? Which ones feels more rewarding?]

Like I said in my second post, I seem to be the only person (especially now so that JP and Mason have chimed in) that isn't a fan of the current prize structure. I never asked you to return to the original prize structure. That would be ludicrous. I would simply prefer that all prizes given out go to top eight. I know I'm in the minority here since most players prefer that prizes are distributed more evenly, but I still wanted to voice my opinion. That's it. I'm sorry if you sensed some non-existent malice in any of my posts.

Lance, trust me when I say I know about EV from both perspectives. I've discussed tournament costs, albeit sometimes briefly, with just about every TO that organized an event I attended. It's obvious that Vintage is not a money-making format for any parties involved.

I never said I played Vintage for the EV. It's the only format I play, besides Type 4, because it's fun. Is winning fun? Sure. But I've had just as much fun going 0-X. You don't need to explain to the poor, unemployed guy about EV Wink.
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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2013, 07:59:40 pm »

I'll start from the beginning.

Calvin, in the post for your first tournament I misconstrued 'It's how all my tourneys pay out' to mean that all future tournaments would have a similar prize structure. I'm well aware the initial prize structure was unrealistic. I wasn't about to ruin a good thing by questioning it. I didn't need to know how you were planning to sustain that.

Then you restructured the prize support but still wanted to please as many participants as possible by keeping the side prizes. Randomly winning something is nice, but I'd rather win based on merit (making top eight). I feel it is wrong when someone who makes top eight walks away with less than someone that did not top eight. Don't get me wrong, I was very appreciative when I was given a chance to salvage a less than stellar day. But then I feel bad when top four or two split and I realize their winnings are lessened because undeserving people like myself won some random card earlier in the day. If the roles were reversed and I was the one splitting, I'd definitely want my winnings maximized. [To use an analogy: Would you rather get a trophy for placing? Or would you rather get one for participating? Which ones feels more rewarding?]

Like I said in my second post, I seem to be the only person (especially now so that JP and Mason have chimed in) that isn't a fan of the current prize structure. I never asked you to return to the original prize structure. That would be ludicrous. I would simply prefer that all prizes given out go to top eight. I know I'm in the minority here since most players prefer that prizes are distributed more evenly, but I still wanted to voice my opinion. That's it. I'm sorry if you sensed some non-existent malice in any of my posts.

Lance, trust me when I say I know about EV from both perspectives. I've discussed tournament costs, albeit sometimes briefly, with just about every TO that organized an event I attended. It's obvious that Vintage is not a money-making format for any parties involved.

I never said I played Vintage for the EV. It's the only format I play, besides Type 4, because it's fun. Is winning fun? Sure. But I've had just as much fun going 0-X. You don't need to explain to the poor, unemployed guy about EV Wink.

Well said.  I tend to agree -- even though it feels like forever since I last ended the day above the cut, I kind of like knowing exactly where I stand.  The feature matches, title belt, and side events are kinda cool, but the randomness can be a little disconcerting.  Especially when the payout for these ends up higher, than, say, 6-8.  I like the idea of paying out to top sixteen (which, given a sample size of 24-40 participants, is still very deep), even if it's only like 1/3 of entry or half entry per place.  (This would only be if the number of participants merited the additional prize support, of course.) 

Just my $.02. 
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« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2013, 09:42:53 pm »

Thank you for clarifying Rob Im not sure most of is knew what you were arguing for.  I do agree with you to some extent about wanting prizes to go to the winners, although I still do like the title belt matches (greater incentive to show up after you've just won one).  The random prizes and "losers" tourny do add some to the tournament though and make it unique from the other events.  It makes it more about having fun than playing the most competitive deck. 

The expected value statement wasn't directed at you specifically just a general statement since every time prize support comes up someone brings it up.
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« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2013, 06:32:02 am »

Even if there were no extra random prizes the prize support is STILL only rivalled by Coss locally.  At 24 people he takes in 840, subtracting credit we get 310 for a mox, time vault, or time walk.  Only vault is a slight value bleed and that is only if it isnt in good condition. 

Now, I didnt quite understand your point at first and now that I do I will say I'm not all-in on the random prizing, but I find it kinda nice especially since, as demonstrated above, they are actually just extras.  The other thing to note about random prizes is that they attract new players.  New players dont look at a top heavy prize structure and see the value even if it is totally insane.  But when they see the value is fair for the entry fee AND they have a bunch of chances to win extra things even without doing well overall they are far more willing to try out vintage for a weekend.

The ingrained playerbase should be fairly happy just with the top 8 payout.  The rest doesn't even need to be focused on by them.  This community can't survive if we aren't bringing new players into the fold and personally I can't see a better way to get new players interested than the random feature matches and other crazy kinds of prizes.  I can honestly say I would pretty much have stopped playing vintage if it weren't for these events specifically.
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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2013, 01:00:33 pm »


Well said.  I tend to agree -- even though it feels like forever since I last ended the day above the cut, I kind of like knowing exactly where I stand.  The feature matches, title belt, and side events are kinda cool, but the randomness can be a little disconcerting.  Especially when the payout for these ends up higher, than, say, 6-8.  I like the idea of paying out to top sixteen (which, given a sample size of 24-40 participants, is still very deep), even if it's only like 1/3 of entry or half entry per place.  (This would only be if the number of participants merited the additional prize support, of course.) 

Just my $.02. 

I'm not really into the idea of paying out to top 16 in any of these regular monthly events. It doesn't make much sense to me for top 16 to get prizes in a 5 rd tournament. I personally would rather have TOs charge less and give out less over paying out to top 16. The random give aways and title match prizes are cool and make it fun to play in.  However even though I don't have a problem with them, my preference would be to concentrate all the prize support to top 8.

Regardless, thanks Calvin for running these, they are the most fun I've had playing vintage at a monthly tournament in a while.
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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2013, 01:40:26 pm »

Even if there were no extra random prizes the prize support is STILL only rivalled by Coss locally.  At 24 people he takes in 840, subtracting credit we get 310 for a mox, time vault, or time walk.  Only vault is a slight value bleed and that is only if it isnt in good condition. 

Now, I didnt quite understand your point at first and now that I do I will say I'm not all-in on the random prizing, but I find it kinda nice especially since, as demonstrated above, they are actually just extras.  The other thing to note about random prizes is that they attract new players.  New players dont look at a top heavy prize structure and see the value even if it is totally insane.  But when they see the value is fair for the entry fee AND they have a bunch of chances to win extra things even without doing well overall they are far more willing to try out vintage for a weekend.

The ingrained playerbase should be fairly happy just with the top 8 payout.  The rest doesn't even need to be focused on by them.  This community can't survive if we aren't bringing new players into the fold and personally I can't see a better way to get new players interested than the random feature matches and other crazy kinds of prizes.  I can honestly say I would pretty much have stopped playing vintage if it weren't for these events specifically.

Twenty-four people at $30 a head is $720. If everyone had 10 proxies (which isn't the case), then it would be $840. Credit =/= cash. This is also under the assumption that 24 are in attendance, which hasn't been the case the last three months.

Where are all these new players that random prizes are supposed to attract? Larger payouts don't necessarily mean larger turnout. There are much better ways to pique the interests of non-Vintage players. Other formats already have the far and away better prize support. Vintage will never be able to compete. There have been several articles/posts/success stories about what it takes to grow a Vintage scene. They don't center around giving away free prizes. It's all about accessibility and visibility.
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2013, 06:52:28 pm »

I have played in 4 of Calvin's vintage tournaments thus far, and have only made top 8 one time. This being said, I would have played everyone of those tournaments with 0 prize pay out.
Where else can I play against former world champs, and deck designers like Brian Noble?
Sitting down against some one flopping down Beta Moxen and so forth never ceases to thrill me!
Thanks for having a place to play against the worlds best!
Kevin
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2013, 03:02:59 am »

I have played in 4 of Calvin's vintage tournaments thus far, and have only made top 8 one time. This being said, I would have played everyone of those tournaments with 0 prize pay out.
Where else can I play against former world champs, and deck designers like Brian Noble?
Sitting down against some one flopping down Beta Moxen and so forth never ceases to thrill me!
Thanks for having a place to play against the worlds best!
Kevin

I believe Pops means "Mike" Noble but we get the idea. Thank you guys, seriously all of you, for your input and words. I have tried to make my events stand out from the rest of the crowds' and it seems in one way or another I have succeeded. Looking forward to seeing you guys on the 14th. I have an idea for the belt this coming event that may just be loonie but we'll see.
cheers,
cal
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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2013, 06:15:19 am »

Who all is coming to this other than Josh?

Pretty sure I am making it Smile
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« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2013, 11:39:35 am »

I think Tom and I are making the trip, maybe with others as well
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« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2013, 02:09:17 pm »

My friend Rob and I will be there. Cant wait!
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« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2013, 08:27:37 pm »

Had some epic games with P Mass and Josh P, great fun, awesome tournament! Thanks Calvin.
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« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2013, 10:56:08 pm »

One of the best events of the season.  Will be back next month.  Thanks Calvin! 
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« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2013, 12:32:58 am »

Made top 8 on a pile. No Ancestral Recall? No problem. Who needs card advantage in Keeper?
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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2013, 09:15:38 am »

TO report is posted.

cheers,
Cal
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