Redemption of Theros Block

[gkraigher]

So the Gods are all godawful.


the only way I see this set redeeming itself is if there are searchable legendary dual lands. 

So far all the cards spoiled are bad enough to merit that in a set. 

This is gonna happen, get ready. 

[xouman]

Well, attending to order number of cards, we have a land with order 223 (Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx), and then basic lands start at 230. That makes space for 6 more non-basic lands. I'm not sure at all wizards would make fetcheable double lands, but it would be nice.

[DubDub]

The new  planeswalker is one I'm looking forward to... for EDH.  But there's also a  planeswalker coming that hopefully does more Vintage-relevant things than milling and scrying.

[AmbivalentDuck]

[Guli]

Xenagos is fine. The usual you know, protects itself, nice ultimate. But I am not sure about the mana, I rather have some cards.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Xenagos is fine. The usual you know, protects itself, nice ultimate. But I am not sure about the mana, I rather have some cards.

In those colors, he's actually something of an EDH staple. Wort TRM loves him, for example. Not sure about Maelstrom Wanderer.

[Guli]

They could have been a bit more creative... This is similar to a Garruk.

[DubDub]

They could have been a bit more creative... This is similar to a Garruk.

In my  Radha deck I'm going to swap Garruk Wildspeaker for this and then chose one of the larger Garruks to start giving me more card advantage.  Sweet!

[xouman]

Well, the UB Planeswalker does not seem impressive for vintage at all:



Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver   1ub
Planeswalker — Ashiok    Mythic Rare
+2: Exile the top three cards of target opponent's library.
-X: Put a creature card with converted mana cost X exiled with Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver onto the battlefield under your control. That creature is a Nightmare in addition to its other types.
-10: Exile all cards from all opponents' hands and graveyards.
Illus. Karla Ortiz #188/249   3


He's only relevant against creatures' decks. He pumps quickly but the first ability is just a pumper, and maybe a combo hoser at best. Ultimatum is a nice effect, but weak for a PW ultimatum, it could perfectly be futile at all. Second effect is the best, but since it does only work with Ashiok exiled effect is quite limited. Still, you can exile a confidant, snapcaster, tarmo, delver, etc. But it's effect is based on luck, if you can search for one creature to exile it would be a great PW, but exiling just 3 top creatures (and limited to opponent library) could be a waste of turns.

[Saya]

I wonder why his ultimate ability costs 10 loyality.If it were around -5 i would play Ashiok in Vintage.

[Guli]

I think it does look impressive!

+2 grows fast, you have 5 when you pass the turn. You are milling and exiling at the same time. And at a fast rate.

If it was a 4cc PW, I would not discuss it, but being at that 3cc and able to protect itself once it has covered some ground, is nice. I woud love this in play with a Thalia and Stony around. Slow the game down, attack them from 3 different angles. But the colors are not super attractive.

Don't underestimate these 3cc PW without double color costs. They come down faster than Liliana and Ajani usually. This can come down on turn 2 consistently, and if you play creatures like Bobs, Snapcaster, Clique, Dr Shaman and so on, I can see this surviving a long time (because it came down early and already got to 5 next turn 7 etc.)

[xouman]

the problem is that there is a high risk about having him for 3 turns without doing anything. in an ideal world he exiles confidant, snapcaster and tarmo and next turn you choose one of them to play freely, and another one next turn. that's really impressive. but if you lose some turns before you can play a creature, this is a loss of card and tempo.

maybe for some sb's against heavy creatures control decks?

[DubDub]

I was hoping that could be part of a Planeswalker Control deck alongside Jace and Liliana.  Even after seeing Ashiok I was trying to make it work in my head, but I just don't think it does.  Jace controls their library, and the board, and gives you extra cards.  Liliana controls the board and limits the opponent's resources.  Ashiok... mills.  I mean, he exiles, but I'm still going to call it milling, and that's not good enough.  If the plus ability had a chance to make 1/1 horrors (like, name a card type, exile three, if one or more of the exiled share that card type then you get a 1/1), if the second ability let you cast anything, not just creatures, if the ultimate didn't cost 10 loyalty, any slight change could make him fit alongside Jace and Liliana.  Plus the ultimate has reduced impact if you've already been hitting them with Liliana's +1 for many turns, and it's clearly worth waiting two more turns for Jace's Ult, which will straight-up win the game.

Very sad day.  Dimir has just fallen so far in the world.

[Guli]

the problem is that there is a high risk about having him for 3 turns without doing anything. in an ideal world he exiles confidant, snapcaster and tarmo and next turn you choose one of them to play freely, and another one next turn. that's really impressive. but if you lose some turns before you can play a creature, this is a loss of card and tempo.

maybe for some sb's against heavy creatures control decks?

Think of it this way: How does the opponent feel about losing top 3 cards of his deck each turn, while this thing is constantly growing (and fast). It is psychological warfare and believe me, nobody will like it and they will attempt to get rid of it. And with so many creatures being played right now, I don't think it will take 3 turns, but even if it does, it is growing and eventually needs to be answered.

Decay is a card and that gets rid of it, that is the only downside from my point of view.

[DubDub]

What I would have made:

  - 3 starting loyalty
+2: Exile the top two cards of target opponent's library and the top two cards of that player's graveyard.
-6: Put a black horror creature token into play with power and toughness equal to the total number of cards in exile among all of your opponents.
-X: You may cast a card exiled with ~ with converted mana cost X or less.  You may activate an ability of ~ again this turn.

The first ability gives more utility in controlling a resource for the opponent, the graveyard, while retaining some of the milling effect WOTC likes (which isn't really resource control unless you get lucky).
The second ability requires more loyalty, but has the potential to make very large threats.  "Ravenous Trap you, make a 20/20 horror?"
The last ability has a tweak that I've expected them to do before now, slightly break the rules about Planeswalkers only activating an ability once per turn per Planeswalker.  So you could cast multiple CMC= and  cards with enough loyalty in a row, or you could cast a spell and then use the + ability to restore loyalty to him for next turn.  You still couldn't 'ultimate' right away because nothing would have been exiled with him right away.

Oh well.

[serracollector]

I have to agree with Guli, I think this PW is actually quite good.  It can even steal a Lodestone, and cast it the next turn and live.  With BUG and Humans seeming to be used more and more, this is essentially a reusable control magic for 3 mana.

[DubDub]

I suppose I'm used to thinking that mill is worthless and counterproductive because you're likely to help your opponent by fueling an even larger Yawgmoth's Will for them (or turning their Regrowth/Snapcaster into a Demonic Tutor), but this guy does exile the cards right off the bat.  Will is no better, Regrowth is no better.  There's still the luck factor of exiling three lands and getting them to their next spell, which could help them, but at least the lands aren't sitting around waiting to be retrieved with Life from the Loam etc.

That being said, it still seems to me like the mix of abilities don't fit well alongside Jace and Liliana.  Maybe if this guy frees up Jace to Brainstorm more instead of having to bounce creatures because you can steal a dude to hold them off and protect your super-team of walkers, maybe that makes him worthwhile?

[evouga]

The problem with this guy is that he's a one-man show. He doesn't synergize with anything or advance you deck's goals in any productive way, besides occasionally giving you free creatures.

Three mana for free creatures every 2-4 turns isn't bad, exactly, but in Vintage it's too weak and unreliable to build a deck around, and if you're not building a deck around him, you might as well cut him for a card that actively advances your strategy.

[AmbivalentDuck]

My view is that this guy isn't even little Jace. He very conditionally and slowly gives you access to critters that are not tailored to be synergistic with your deck's strategy. Ie. Whose game is really advanced by a 1UB-Suspend 1 Bribery for Lodestone Golem? It's not even suspend 1 most of the time. More like suspend 3-5.

In standard, this is potentially a very solid card as you get access to a standalone 1UB "reanimator" engine.

[vaughnbros]

He's bad.  3 mana do nothing the first turn is not vintage playable.  Exiling the top 3 is not relevant against a majority of decks.  His second ability is extremely unreliable.  His ultimate doesn't win the game or necessarily do anything at all.  There are much better cards to be playing.

Edit:  Is this a male or a female?

[d8dk32]

I think it has some potential. It doesn't really fit into any existing decks, but it's not really weak, and any walker that costs three is worth considering in my mind. Maybe a deck could be built around it, but at this point i can't think of how.

Also, I think it's female.

[ed0]

Edit:  Is this a male or a female?

The full art imo suggests male. But considering the thing is missing half its head i'm not sure the usual indicators are of any relevance.
Also: this.

I don't think the card will see any play in vintage. It
- has no synergies with cards played in vintage (nor a way to interface with them in the future for that matter)
- is slow (it basically does nothing on the first turn and then nothing every other turn)
- is extremely unreliable (you can't pick which creatures to exile or might never exile a creature to begin with...)

It could be worth a consideration if you were able to exile cards from your deck with the first ability too, but with just the opponents deck there is a non-negligible chance the walker survives for a number of turns without actually doing anything.

[Guli]

It does something, it comes into play and grows fast. That alone is a concern for the opponent and must be answered.

[TheWhiteDragon]

It does something, it comes into play and grows fast. That alone is a concern for the opponent and must be answered.

Disagreed.  It can grow all it wants and the something it does is weak.  Against a deck that runs few or no creatures, it doesn't have to answer this thing at all.  It has ~15 turns before it can deck the opponent, and in that time they just win while this thing ramps to no significant ultimate.

[Protoaddict]

Well dash any hopes you may have had. We got Scry lands instead.

[evouga]

and in that time they just win while this thing ramps to no significant ultimate.

That's not *entirely* fair -- unless you're playing something like Dredge, you'd probably rather not have your entire hand exiled.

[Guli]

It does something, it comes into play and grows fast. That alone is a concern for the opponent and must be answered.

Disagreed.  It can grow all it wants and the something it does is weak.  Against a deck that runs few or no creatures, it doesn't have to answer this thing at all.  It has ~15 turns before it can deck the opponent, and in that time they just win while this thing ramps to no significant ultimate.

Sure, sure tell whatever you want here, I want to see you stay cool and cold in game and ignore it while it builds up. It does nothing, keep believing that.

[maatn]

Well dash any hopes you may have had. We got Scry lands instead.

Such a bummer..I was looking forward to more actual duallands...
Also tapped into play, was that really necessary? These lands with scry 1 seem marginally better than the Invasion-duals.
I am very curious to see how these lands actually work in real games. It seems like a great set for sealed-formats.

[Guli]

Who 'predicted' these new dual lands anyway? Seems like we all got high expectations and are now experiencing a reality check.

[zimagic]

Well dash any hopes you may have had. We got Scry lands instead.

Such a bummer..I was looking forward to more actual duallands...
Also tapped into play, was that really necessary? These lands with scry 1 seem marginally better than the Invasion-duals.
I am very curious to see how these lands actually work in real games. It seems like a great set for sealed-formats.

Guildgates (common) with Scry 1 essentially.