Doomsday (the Ritual approach)

[personalbackfire]

Yesterday I split in the finals of MVP Vintage tournament in Lancaster, PA (about 22 people I believe) with Doomsday. Since all of the threads look old and inactive I figured I'd start a new one to address a few thoughts.

My list:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Doomsday
1 Necropotence
1 Fastbond
4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Hurky's Recall
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
2 Mental Misstep
1 Flusterstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest

3 Ignot Chewer
3 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroclasm
1 Duress
1 Mountain
2 Xantid Swarm

After seeing Soly do well with Doomsday at Gencon I decided it was worth trying again. I had previously played it in a tournament a few months ago to abysmal results and quickly gave up. I really liked a  few things about Mike's list, especially the sideboard. I never thought of trying to play Chewer in this deck or Swarm but they both really made sense to me. Chewer is just one of the best answers you can have against shops and Swarm is a house in true control matches. In addition I really liked that Mike had Emerald and Crypt in his list, though I ended up cutting the Crypt to make room for some rituals.

I put together the deck (with 3 rituals 0 necro) and play tested it against the Bob Welder Strix deck to pretty good results.  Then I tried it against Menendian Gush Pyromancer, which had me splitting the small sample size. I felt good enough about running the deck in a tournament, so set out to do that.

Some things I like about the deck: First, it is very fast. Playing dark rituals means that you can win on turn 2 a higher percentage of the time. It also means that you don't have to gush (in order to get BBB with your Underground Seas, if you only have 2 in play) and then have another draw spell in hand (and mana to cast it) to win. The deck is extremely redundant, which I liked. I bumped the rituals up to 3, then to the full count 4. There seems to be some dissension in the community about if Dark Ritual is needed in this deck or not. I am hoping to shed some light on it for myself and others. What (and why) is your opinion on the correct number of Dark rituals?

I personally decided that I like Dark Ritual in the deck and wanted to play the full set. The reason being I wanted to win on turn two a high percentage of the game. I wanted to play a fast, redundant combo deck. The second reason I played it was because Doomsday is a spell that cost BBB. Ritual obviously helps with that casting cost. Lastly, it opens up the possibility of Necro.

So for those of us who have played this deck with 3 or 4 Dark Rituals, why have others not played Necropotence? (If I am wrong in that assumption please correct me). Necropotence is one of the best spells that has ever been printed. It would be very hard for me to not include it in a deck that has 4 Dark Ritual. It opens up another path to win the game. Playing rituals means that you can draw a bunch of cards and aim for a storm kill, or just ensure that you win with Doomsday the following turn.  

This particular version has a few different paths of victory (which I very much like):
1) Doomsday
2) Gushbond
3) Necro
4) Storming people in other ways (bounce or cantrips mini tendrils)

I have seen others cutting Fastbond, why is that? With 4 Gush and 4 Preordain, Gushbonding is a real path to victory. Is it worth cutting cards that lead to alternate ways of victory, that also play well with the cards already in your deck? I know this could go onto draw 7s and whatever else, but I am actually pretty interested in hearing the communities opinion?

Sensei's Divining Top was a huge addition to the deck. It leads to more ways to kill with Doomsday, as well as just allowing you to filter your draws in games that go longer, and keep you in games you should be losing. One story from yesterday that showed the power of Top was that I was dead the following turn to Trinket Mage and Restoration Angel beats when I top-decked Top.  I cast Top and activated its ability to see Gush, Vamp, and land. I was able to draw the Gush, then Gush into Vamp and Top, which allowed me to Vamp for Tendrils, and Top into the Tendrils for lethal storm.

I have not tested the Shop match to know if the sideboard was enough but I will say I lost both side boarded games I played yesterday to it. I would need to test more.

I would not advise Swarms unless your meta is full of "true control," which I mean decks like the Angel deck, or Landstill. Against Gush Control decks you would rather just have more Duress or Flusterstorms. It could be worth adding some Thoughtseizes and Flusterstorms over the Swarms.

Please let me know your thoughts and comments.

Thanks!
Steve

[John Cox]

Doomsday is great fun, glad there's a thread finally!
I've  played doomsday as a pet deck for a while now. I've cut fastbond and rituals from my list, although I think I probably should have one ritual in here. I just can't find room.

Here's my list:

3 izzet charm
2 deathrite shaman
1 pyroblast
4 Doomsday
4 Gush
3 Preordain
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Hurky's Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 sol ring
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
61 (!) Cards

Some things I like about the deck: First, it is very fast. Playing dark rituals means that you can win on turn 2 a higher percentage of the time. It also means that you don't have to gush (in order to get BBB with your Underground Seas, if you only have 2 in play) and then have another draw spell in hand (and mana to cast it) to win. The deck is extremely redundant, which I liked. I bumped the rituals up to 3, then to the full count 4. There seems to be some dissension in the community about if Dark Ritual is needed in this deck or not. I am hoping to shed some light on it for myself and others. What (and why) is your opinion on the correct number of Dark rituals?

I personally decided that I like Dark Ritual in the deck and wanted to play the full set. The reason being I wanted to win on turn two a high percentage of the game. I wanted to play a fast, redundant combo deck. The second reason I played it was because Doomsday is a spell that cost BBB. Ritual obviously helps with that casting cost. Lastly, it opens up the possibility of Necro.

So for those of us who have played this deck with 3 or 4 Dark Rituals, why have others not played Necropotence? (If I am wrong in that assumption please correct me). Necropotence is one of the best spells that has ever been printed. It would be very hard for me to not include it in a deck that has 4 Dark Ritual. It opens up another path to win the game. Playing rituals means that you can draw a bunch of cards and aim for a storm kill, or just ensure that you win with Doomsday the following turn. 

This particular version has a few different paths of victory (which I very much like):
1) Doomsday
2) Gushbond
3) Necro
4) Storming people in other ways (bounce or cantrips mini tendrils)

I have seen others cutting Fastbond, why is that? With 4 Gush and 4 Preordain, Gushbonding is a real path to victory. Is it worth cutting cards that lead to alternate ways of victory, that also play well with the cards already in your deck? I know this could go onto draw 7s and whatever else, but I am actually pretty interested in hearing the communities opinion?

Sensei's Divining Top was a huge addition to the deck. It leads to more ways to kill with Doomsday, as well as just allowing you to filter your draws in games that go longer, and keep you in games you should be losing. One story from yesterday that showed the power of Top was that I was dead the following turn to Trinket Mage and Restoration Angel beats when I top-decked Top.  I cast Top and activated its ability to see Gush, Vamp, and land. I was able to draw the Gush, then Gush into Vamp and Top, which allowed me to Vamp for Tendrils, and Top into the Tendrils for lethal storm.

I have not tested the Shop match to know if the sideboard was enough but I will say I lost both side boarded games I played yesterday to it. I would need to test more.

I would not advise Swarms unless your meta is full of "true control," which I mean decks like the Angel deck, or Landstill. Against Gush Control decks you would rather just have more Duress or Flusterstorms. It could be worth adding some Thoughtseizes and Flusterstorms over the Swarms.

Please let me know your thoughts and comments.

Thanks!
Steve

You want one ritual minimum to get around a chalice at 0. It lets you make a pile with ritual in place of lotus (for two more mana). Chalice at 0 is a fairly common play. You could just put hurkyl's in the pile but this pile works without the need for an additional cantrip.
Wining with a tendrils pile is also a great thing a ritual lets you do. Laboratory maniac doesn't always work with abrupt decay out there.

Necro is great but doesn't let you pass the turn into doomsday. I can't get it to work. I usually necro for 7 cards, should I be going deeper?

I have never found fastbond necessary enough to warrant the tropical. Usually to go off I need two cantrips and a tutor or three cantrips (no tutor) in my hand. If I have that I don't need a fastbond to win. I'm pretty much set up to win with doomsday already. Either by tutoring for, or cantriping into doomsday and protection.
I'd rather keep my mana base three colours.

[Smmenen]

What (and why) is your opinion on the correct number of Dark rituals?

IMO, the correct number of Rituals is 0-1 in Gush Doomsday for reasons I stated when I first broke out this deck, and Top8ed the Waterbury in 2011. It's training wheels.  

Soly's sideboard is good, and close to what I would play if I were to play Doomsday in a tournament.  

[vaughnbros]

What (and why) is your opinion on the correct number of Dark rituals?

IMO, the correct number of Rituals is 0-1 in Gush Doomsday for reasons I stated when I first broke out this deck, and Top8ed the Waterbury in 2011. It's training wheels.  

I don't think 1 top 8 from 2011 disproves the number of top 8's and tournament wins over the last couple of years by ritual doomsday players, including this one right here.

[Samoht]

What (and why) is your opinion on the correct number of Dark rituals?

IMO, the correct number of Rituals is 0-1 in Gush Doomsday for reasons I stated when I first broke out this deck, and Top8ed the Waterbury in 2011. It's training wheels.  

I don't think 1 top 8 from 2011 disproves the number of top 8's and tournament wins over the last couple of years by ritual doomsday players, including this one right here.

No facts allowed Lance, you should know better than to argue with Steve.

[Prospero]

Let's play nice, guys.

[Smmenen]

What (and why) is your opinion on the correct number of Dark rituals?

IMO, the correct number of Rituals is 0-1 in Gush Doomsday for reasons I stated when I first broke out this deck, and Top8ed the Waterbury in 2011. It's training wheels.  

I don't think 1 top 8 from 2011 disproves the number of top 8's and tournament wins over the last couple of years by ritual doomsday players, including this one right here.

I have multiple top 8s with this deck, including winning a Meandeck open with it.  And, of course, I've continued to play test it.

Other players agree with me.  In his report, Soly said he'd play 1 Ritual going forward.

[personalbackfire]

Necro is great but doesn't let you pass the turn into doomsday. I can't get it to work. I usually necro for 7 cards, should I be going deeper?

I have never found fastbond necessary enough to warrant the tropical. Usually to go off I need two cantrips and a tutor or three cantrips (no tutor) in my hand. If I have that I don't need a fastbond to win. I'm pretty much set up to win with doomsday already. Either by tutoring for, or cantriping into doomsday and protection.
I'd rather keep my mana base three colours.

Can you explain further what you mean about Necro? If you resolve Necro and draw a bunch of cards, you should be able to win on the spot when you cast Doomsday more times than not. When playing Necro and assessing how many cards you draw, you have to think about what plan you are going for (Will, Gushbond, Doomsday), whats in play, your hand, and what's needed to accomplish that plan. If you don't have a ton of action going on I generally Necro down to 10 life, which in my experience has been for around 7-9 cards on average. The reason for this is that I want to try and keep my life total high enough that I can win with either Gushbond or Doomsday as well as see enough cards to be able to pick and choose my hand, not just have a hand with a bunch of blanks.

I like Fastbond since it (like Necropotence) gives you another way to win (Gushbonding). It also allows for more "opps I win" draws, which is always nice.

Thanks for your comments!
Your list looks fun. How is Izzet Charm?
Also, Sol Ring?

[d8dk32]

I personally like the idea of Rituals in the deck, and I think 3 is a good number, since you don't need 4 as it's not your only good source of Doomsday mana. I also think that the Ritual version plays differently from the Ritual-less version, because of the rituals. The Ritual version is consistently faster, and can better capitalize on things like the opponent tapping out, or mulling to 5 or something because it can push for a faster win. The Ritual-less version seems more stable, and definitely goes in for a longer game. It has more counterspells and can better fight through blue control. I think it really depends on which style of deck you'd prefer to play: a faster, but more fragile combo deck with plenty of raw power and ways to win, or a combo-control deck that is slightly slower but more stable and consistent. I like my decks unstable and suicidal, so I'd play with rituals. and Necro, for that matter.

[personalbackfire]

What (and why) is your opinion on the correct number of Dark rituals?

IMO, the correct number of Rituals is 0-1 in Gush Doomsday for reasons I stated when I first broke out this deck, and Top8ed the Waterbury in 2011. It's training wheels.  

I don't think 1 top 8 from 2011 disproves the number of top 8's and tournament wins over the last couple of years by ritual doomsday players, including this one right here.

I have multiple top 8s with this deck, including winning a Meandeck open with it.  And, of course, I've continued to play test it.

Other players agree with me.  In his report, Soly said he'd play 1 Ritual going forward.

Steve, yea I know that he agrees with you. I was mostly wondering why. I went back and skimmed over your Doomsday Returns article and you said in that article that Dark Rituals were "dead weight," mostly only helping with Yawgs Will.  In this and other threads you have said that they are "training wheels." That is great and all but that that doesn't really tell me why I shouldn't play with Ritual.

Ritual enables faster Doomsday Wins.
It allows you to play Necro.
It provides mana for Doomsday.
It allows you to win without Gushbond or Doomsday (in Ritual Will scenarios).

Those were my reasons.

So is it just a preference as d8dk32 suggests or is there an optimal list which runs or doesn't run ritual?

[John Cox]

Necro is great but doesn't let you pass the turn into doomsday. I can't get it to work. I usually necro for 7 cards, should I be going deeper?

I have never found fastbond necessary enough to warrant the tropical. Usually to go off I need two cantrips and a tutor or three cantrips (no tutor) in my hand. If I have that I don't need a fastbond to win. I'm pretty much set up to win with doomsday already. Either by tutoring for, or cantriping into doomsday and protection.
I'd rather keep my mana base three colours.

Can you explain further what you mean about Necro? If you resolve Necro and draw a bunch of cards, you should be able to win on the spot when you cast Doomsday more times than not. When playing Necro and assessing how many cards you draw, you have to think about what plan you are going for (Will, Gushbond, Doomsday), whats in play, your hand, and what's needed to accomplish that plan. If you don't have a ton of action going on I generally Necro down to 10 life, which in my experience has been for around 7-9 cards on average. The reason for this is that I want to try and keep my life total high enough that I can win with either Gushbond or Doomsday as well as see enough cards to be able to pick and choose my hand, not just have a hand with a bunch of blanks.

I like Fastbond since it (like Necropotence) gives you another way to win (Gushbonding). It also allows for more "opps I win" draws, which is always nice.

Thanks for your comments!
Your list looks fun. How is Izzet Charm?
Also, Sol Ring?

It might just be my luck but I usually draw poorly off necro. I'll get into situations where I it lets me resolve doomsday, draw into it, but not cast ancestral. I've never found the card that great in this this deck.

Izzet charm is amazing, it kills all the little Confidants and Deathrite Shamans out there. I kind of see it as a soft counter that hits most creatures as well.
It's also a draw spell for doomsday if the game go long enough. The cool thing about that is it draws the same number of cards as gush so you use the same piles as your gush piles.
Sol ring is in there for chalice at zero (in place of ritual) and to be a permanent against workshops. Opening with "Island, Sol Ring, -Go."  is not terrible against workshops.

[Smmenen]

What (and why) is your opinion on the correct number of Dark rituals?

IMO, the correct number of Rituals is 0-1 in Gush Doomsday for reasons I stated when I first broke out this deck, and Top8ed the Waterbury in 2011. It's training wheels.  

I don't think 1 top 8 from 2011 disproves the number of top 8's and tournament wins over the last couple of years by ritual doomsday players, including this one right here.

I have multiple top 8s with this deck, including winning a Meandeck open with it.  And, of course, I've continued to play test it.

Other players agree with me.  In his report, Soly said he'd play 1 Ritual going forward.

Steve, yea I know that he agrees with you. I was mostly wondering why. I went back and skimmed over your Doomsday Returns article and you said in that article that Dark Rituals were "dead weight," mostly only helping with Yawgs Will.  In this and other threads you have said that they are "training wheels." That is great and all but that that doesn't really tell me why I shouldn't play with Ritual.

Ritual enables faster Doomsday Wins.
It allows you to play Necro.
It provides mana for Doomsday.
It allows you to win without Gushbond or Doomsday (in Ritual Will scenarios).

Those were my reasons.

So is it just a preference as d8dk32 suggests or is there an optimal list which runs or doesn't run ritual?

The reasons are simple, but the explanation is long and complicated.  Scanning the other Doomsday thread, I found a pretty good explanation there, and especially in this post: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43231.msg617760#msg617760

There is more I might add, but it's pretty much found in that thread, such as here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43231.msg630891#msg630891

That's a point I could elaborate on, but the bottom line there is that Dark Ritual doesn't help any bad matchups, and makes you marginally worse against important matchups.  The only matchup I think it may actually help or matter is Dredge, and possibly Burning Long/Tendrils, but not enough to justify running it.  

If you want to go earlier in the thread, I debated Ambivalent Duck for a while as he argued in favor of Ritual, in posts like this one: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43231.msg594176#msg594176

On a final note, since you bring it up, if you want Necropotence, I'd run it anyway, even with 0-1 Dark Ritual.  Don't let a lack of Rituals dissuade you.  Necro is castable even without a full complement of Rits. 

[Wave]

I have seen others cutting Fastbond, why is that? With 4 Gush and 4 Preordain, Gushbonding is a real path to victory. Is it worth cutting cards that lead to alternate ways of victory, that also play well with the cards already in your deck? I know this could go onto draw 7s and whatever else, but I am actually pretty interested in hearing the communities opinion?

Sensei's Divining Top was a huge addition to the deck. It leads to more ways to kill with Doomsday, as well as just allowing you to filter your draws in games that go longer, and keep you in games you should be losing. One story from yesterday that showed the power of Top was that I was dead the following turn to Trinket Mage and Restoration Angel beats when I top-decked Top.  I cast Top and activated its ability to see Gush, Vamp, and land. I was able to draw the Gush, then Gush into Vamp and Top, which allowed me to Vamp for Tendrils, and Top into the Tendrils for lethal storm.

When I played Doomsday I cut both Tendrils and Fastbond in some of my lists that I tried. My reasoning was that in a meta full of Workshop; Tendrils become a liability and a dead draw. Tendrils always felt like a win more route to victory since when you have reached 9 storm you probably could just have made a Doomsday pile somewhere along the road and win from there. Cutting Fastbond when Tendrils was cut was just a natural evolution since the storm route was discarded. Fastbond is an inherent strategy in Gushdecks that adds flexibility and other routes to victory however it is mostly there for the storm kill in this deck. By going a more controlling route when cutting Fastbond Sensei's Divining Top is a natural inclusion that have proven itself in the old Doomsday decks in Legacy. Doomsday without Fastbond is played more like a true control deck or a Grixis control deck that just happens to be able to combo out on turn 2/3 and it makes spashing red easier by not diluting your manabase for a one of. 

That was my reasoning when cutting Fastbond and Tendrils anyway. I also added Tinker/bot because of the matches that could not be won with Maniac, Top made the artifact count high enough for it's inclusion. Don't know if I would cut Fastbond and Tendrils today though.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Dark Ritual

1. The minimal debate is the first slot of Dark Ritual vs...more countermagic? Let's be clear here: Dark Ritual is better than Flusterstorm against Shops. If you can Force the first Sphere, you'd much rather have Dark Rit than Flusterstorm in hand turn 2. Similarly, they have Wastelands and getting BBB against them isn't always trivial. Having that Mystical target and dodging Chalice@0 is no small thing.

2. You feel strongly about this. The strength of your feelings is far out of proportion to the evidence at hand. Builds with 2+ Rituals have a better recent performance history. There's a quirk regarding Divining Witch and Doomsday in Dredge sideboards, but that's tangential to the discussion at hand.

3. Citing "read my primer!" as a history of debate is extremely misleading. I understand that your reasoning starts from Gush and not from Doomsday itself. Ie. Gush-control with a potential Doomsday finisher. Sort of like Tinker, but winning that turn. Sort of like Tendrils, but cheaper and less finicky. You saw Doomsday as the pinnacle of Gush-control. That's swell and all, but you don't have to build every deck with 4x Doomsday as a control deck. Young Pyromancer is probably the new Gro-control king. Rather than playing a suboptimal Pyromancer deck, it's reasonable to tweak Doomsday to "oops, I win" that matchup. Going off very early combined with cards like Xantid Swarm minimizes interaction and leverages your superior speed.

[personalbackfire]

@ smmenen and ambivalentduck
Thank you both for the arguments for and against dark ritual. The consensus I am coming to is that there is a more controlling way to build Doomsday where you just so happen to have a win now combo, and for a lack of better words there is a more “combo” oriented way  or approach to build it, including rituals.

Having played my list, I don’t feel like DD with rituals is remotely close to a glass cannon type deck or anything like that. Running 7 counters and 3 discard spells main allows much interaction with your opponent throughout the game. I was under the impression that much of the reason to play DD was how fast the combo was backed up with a decent number of counters and ways to protect it. I was surprised to read smmenen (in an earlier post you linked) that you said that usually your deck aims to go off around turn 7 (hopefully I’m not misremembering), with it being capable to win earlier as well.

I do agree with ambivalentduck that just because you cut rituals from the deck for more counter magic doesn’t mean that you have a better workshop match. Mental Missteps and Flusterstorms are about the last thing I would ever want to see against them. Pierce can okay, but isn’t great. In some regards, playing the Force a resistor, try to win the game with a quick Ritual DD might be better game plan.


@Wave
Thanks for your insight of Fastbond and Tendrils. I don’t have much to add other than I like that it allows for additional ways to end the game. Also, FB can be quite good against shops. Drawing Tendrils is usually not fun against most people. How many Tops were you running to support Tinker?

[Smmenen]

The consensus I am coming to is that there is a more controlling way to build Doomsday where you just so happen to have a win now combo, and for a lack of better words there is a more “combo” oriented way  or approach to build it, including rituals.

Ie. Gush-control with a potential Doomsday finisher.

That's actually not at all what I'm trying to argue at all.  

Let me try again.  

Consider Mike Flores' principle: misassignment of role equals game loss. The idea here is that you want role flexibility so that you can choose a role that is most optimal in any given matchup or situation.   Zvi elaborated on this idea in his "Who's the Beatdown 2?" essay, arguing that the player that can successfully seize BOTH roles, or, put another way, deny the opponent an optimal role, will win the game.

I am not advocating for a "more controlling" Doomsday deck.  I'm advocating for a more *flexible* Doomsday deck, that is able to play both roles.

Put simply: When I won the Meandeck Open with this deck, I went off on turn 2 both games against Elves.  In one game I simply Imperial Sealed for Lotus on turn one, and won on turn 2.   In another game, I cast T2 Doomsday with Sea, Sea, Petal and won on Turn 2.   In my round 2 or 3 opponent at the Waterbury, in contrast, I played a hard control role against a slow control deck, and eventually won by virtue of my inherently superior virtual and actual card advantage.  I was able to grind him out.

The point is simple: I am able to play whatever role I want.  

It is not a matter of playing a "more controlling" Gush deck.  Rather, it is a matter of playing a deck that *can* be more controlling.  The option to play a controlling role should not be confused (and is being confused) with being a more controlling role.  This is a subtle, but critical distinction.

There is a second area of confusion that is leading to the wrong conclusion:

I do agree with ambivalentduck that just because you cut rituals from the deck for more counter magic doesn’t mean that you have a better workshop match.

That's not what I said.   Look at what I said more carefully:

the bottom line there is that Dark Ritual doesn't help any bad matchups, and makes you marginally worse against important matchups.

The "important" matchup I was referring to in the second part of this sentence isn't Workshops (that would be conflating the "bad matchup" part of the sentence with the "important matchup" part of the sentence.  It's blue decks.  Dark Rituals dilute your ability to win games -- in *either* role -- against control decks.  Yes, you can win marginally faster (although how much faster is overstated), but your ability to *protect* your win is greatly diminished AND the option to play the control role is virtually eliminated.  

The weakness of Ritual against Workshops is not the critical issue, although that is also a salient fact.  Anyone who thinks Dark Rituals is good against Workshops lives in fantasy land and is not a real/serious/regular Vintage tournament player.  

To the point that Rituals are just as bad as Flusterstorm/Misstep against Workshops, while that may be true, that does not diminish how bad Rituals are against Workshops, and that argument masks another critical point: building your Doomsday deck to rely on Rituals means that you can't optimize your deck post-sideboard against Workshops.  Put another way: an optimal post-sideboard Doomsday deck against Shops would have 0 Rituals, whether you are playing the Ritual version or not.  

A backdrop issue to this deck is, frankly, a lack of skilled players in this format.  In my Doomsday returns primer, I explained how I originally had a Gitaxian probe until I realized that there is no pile/situation where you can't win without it -- a realization I didn't have until the morning of the tournament.  Yet, people still run Probe.   Relatedly, Fastbond functions in a very similar, but superior and more flexible role, to Dark Ritual.  Anyone who would cut Fastbond is doing it wrong.

I will concede that Dark Rituals will probably help you agianst Dredge because they make you marginally faster.  But as the debate in the other Doomsday thread bore out, you still don't want to cut Dredge hate (see Mark Hornung's classic response).  But Dark Rituals weaken you signfiicantly against blue decks, and are terrible against Workshops in general.  

lds with 2+ Rituals have a better recent performance history

That is an absolute distortion in the argument.  I have always been on board with 0-1 Rituals, and have little serious quarrel if folks want to slightly suboptimize their deck with 2 Rituals.  You have been advocating for 4 Rituals since I broke this out at the Waterbury and published my primer.  So don't pretend as if a 2 Ritual deck comports or is consistent with your arguments of the past.  The argument isn't 2+ Rituals version zero.  It is 0-2 versus 3-4.   I am strongly in favor of the former, and totally opposed to the latter.  2 Rituals is an approach that rejects your position, not mine.

[personalbackfire]

@Smmenen,
Thanks for your detailed response. I’m beginning to understand your point now that it is about being flexible, if your focus is on the blue match. My question next would then be can you not be flexible with Dark Rituals in your deck? Does the benefit of running Dark Rituals outweigh the cost of not being able to run additional counter spells with the goal of being flexible? It is clear that the answer for you would be no. I would consider arguing that the extra 3-4 counter spells you get by not running rituals does not outweigh the loss that you get be cutting Dark Rituals. Going off you can be “beat down” with a control deck, and “control” with an aggro deck, it wouldn’t seem that those few extra counters you get really allow you to be that much more flexible. However, I honestly have not played the deck without Rituals, and am not really willing to continue to argue a point I am unsure of.

To the point of skilled Doomsday players, I agree, and probably lump myself in with that group. Most piles I won with involved Recall, Gush, and Probe if I was going for a Maniac kill. The fact I did well speaks to the power of the deck.
Thanks again for your responses; I appreciate learning more about Doomsday.

[Smmenen]

@Smmenen,
Thanks for your detailed response. I’m beginning to understand your point now that it is about being flexible, if your focus is on the blue match. My question next would then be can you not be flexible with Dark Rituals in your deck? Does the benefit of running Dark Rituals outweigh the cost of not being able to run additional counter spells with the goal of being flexible? It is clear that the answer for you would be no. I would consider arguing that the extra 3-4 counter spells you get by not running rituals does not outweigh the loss that you get be cutting Dark Rituals. Going off you can be “beat down” with a control deck, and “control” with an aggro deck, it wouldn’t seem that those few extra counters you get really allow you to be that much more flexible. However, I honestly have not played the deck without Rituals, and am not really willing to continue to argue a point I am unsure of.

To the point of skilled Doomsday players, I agree, and probably lump myself in with that group. Most piles I won with involved Recall, Gush, and Probe if I was going for a Maniac kill. The fact I did well speaks to the power of the deck.
Thanks again for your responses; I appreciate learning more about Doomsday.

Again, I think 1-2 Rituals is a fine compromise that doesn't overly dilute you against blue, but I don't see the point.  If you play this deck very well and extremely tightly, Rituals are just unnecessary or worse.  They move you away from the inherent advantages of Gush and Fastbond.   In my view, it scales to skill -- that's why I say it's training wheels.  The better you are, the less Dark Rituals are necessary.    The only matchup Dark Rituals actually help is Dredge, and while they are either even against everything else, or weaken you.  

EDIT: I just realized you don't have Imperial Seal.  Imperial Seal replaces Ritual in Soly's list.  I use it all the time to find Black Lotus or Fastbond. 

[sillysam71]

Soly and I ended up playing almost an identical maindeck in that tournament and both made top 8 with 2 rituals, which he thinks is the right number. I've played this deck with 0, 4, 3, and now 2 rituals and have come to the conclusion that I want at least 1 so I have the ability to mystical tutor for black lotus, but no more than 2 since I never want to see more than one in a game.

@Smennen: Soly wasn't playing Imp Seal in his deck, so it wasn't replacing a ritual. He plans on playing Seal in the future, though. I think Seal is 100% correct in this deck.

As for Necro, here's Soly's opinion:

"Necropotence is such a liability. If you don't resolve it on turn 1 or turn 2, then you're basically gambling a card against Lodestone Golem, Young Pyromancer, Lightning Bolt, and Tendrils of Agony.  Necropotence isn't the strongest in this deck because the deck plays at the speed of the old Lotus Cobra Decks from years ago, but the rest of the format is designed to be much more brutal."

I would agree that I don't like Necro in this deck. If you're playing 4 rituals, it might be right since you can more reliably cast it on turn 1, but if you're not it's much less effective.

One of the large benefits of this deck is definitely being able to go fast when you need to and having the ability to slow down the game when speed isn't necessary. I had multiple turn 2 wins during the tournaments on Friday and Saturday, including a match late Saturday where I only gave my Pyromancer opponent 3 turns in the entire match, but I also had a few games easily go past 10 turns.

[Smmenen]

Soly and I ended up playing almost an identical maindeck in that tournament and both made top 8 with 2 rituals, which he thinks is the right number. I've played this deck with 0, 4, 3, and now 2 rituals and have come to the conclusion that I want at least 1 so I have the ability to mystical tutor for black lotus, but no more than 2 since I never want to see more than one in a game.

@Smennen: Soly wasn't playing Imp Seal in his deck, so it wasn't replacing a ritual. He plans on playing Seal in the future, though. I think Seal is 100% correct in this deck.

Sam: in his report on EC he says he's cutting the 2nd Ritual for Imperial Seal.  

That's why I say Soly is now on 1 Ritual.  Based on your description, you and I are pretty much in accordance on the proper number of Rituals though.  I've said since 2011 that 1 Ritual is fine for the specific reason you mention (Mystical Tutor).  I think 0-1 is optimal, but 2 is acceptable.  3-4 is where I disagree, and it seems you do as well.

[sillysam71]

Soly and I ended up playing almost an identical maindeck in that tournament and both made top 8 with 2 rituals, which he thinks is the right number. I've played this deck with 0, 4, 3, and now 2 rituals and have come to the conclusion that I want at least 1 so I have the ability to mystical tutor for black lotus, but no more than 2 since I never want to see more than one in a game.

@Smennen: Soly wasn't playing Imp Seal in his deck, so it wasn't replacing a ritual. He plans on playing Seal in the future, though. I think Seal is 100% correct in this deck.

Sam: in his report on EC he says he's cutting the 2nd Ritual for Imperial Seal. 

That's why I say Soly is now on 1 Ritual.  Based on your description, you and I are pretty much in accordance on the proper number of Rituals though.  I've said since 2011 that 1 Ritual is fine for the specific reason you mention.  I think 0-1 is optimal, but 2 is acceptable.  3-4 is where I disagree, and it seems you do as well.

Ah, gotcha. Ya, same page for rituals. I'll most likely try 1 next time I play the deck.

As for Probe, I didn't play it at Gencon, but Soly did and I'm considering it in the deck again, mainly because it allows you to build piles with protection when you're going off with little or no free mana, whereas a lot of the time I would have to put lotus petal or mana crypt in that slot to allow me to cast my draw spell. I found myself trying to go off with less than 4 lands quite frequently, so throwing a gush in that slot wouldn't cut it. I know in Soly's top 8 match against Lanigra, he vamp'd for Probe to see if the coast was clear because he didn't have enough mana to cast anything else along with Doomsday, this is a pretty narrow situation, though. I need to mess around with it a little more.

[Smmenen]

I know from our discussions regarding my Legacy version of this deck that we both appreciate how good Probe can be, but I'd likely just rather have a Duress effect in that slot for that function.  Probe is probably not that harmful (much like the 2nd Ritual isn't harming your deck that much), but the better the player, the less useful/important it is.  

[Wave]

@ smmenen and ambivalentduck
Thanks for your insight of Fastbond and Tendrils. I don’t have much to add other than I like that it allows for additional ways to end the game. Also, FB can be quite good against shops. Drawing Tendrils is usually not fun against most people. How many Tops were you running to support Tinker?

I was running 3 Sensei's Divining Top. With a base of 3 Moxen, Mana Crypt, Petal and Sol Ring the artifact count was almost equivalent to the artifacts run by most Grixis control decks, making Tinker a viable strategy. Remember that top is probably your best card against Workshops and you always want to draw it in that matchup, being both a permanent and a filter card under spheres that Combos with Doomsday.

@Imperial Seal if you can't afford the Seal try Lim-Dûls Vault instead, It might cost one more mana however it makes up for it by being an instant that can tutor for several cards at once. Not a 100 percent perfect replacement since it can't enable turn two shenanigans but its close enough.

[John Cox]

@ smmenen and ambivalentduck
Thanks for your insight of Fastbond and Tendrils. I don’t have much to add other than I like that it allows for additional ways to end the game. Also, FB can be quite good against shops. Drawing Tendrils is usually not fun against most people. How many Tops were you running to support Tinker?

I was running 3 Sensei's Divining Top. With a base of 3 Moxen, Mana Crypt, Petal and Sol Ring the artifact count was almost equivalent to the artifacts run by most Grixis control decks, making Tinker a viable strategy. Remember that top is probably your best card against Workshops and you always want to draw it in that matchup, being both a permanent and a filter card under spheres that Combos with Doomsday.

@Imperial Seal if you can't afford the Seal try Lim-Dûls Vault instead, It might cost one more mana however it makes up for it by being an instant that can tutor for several cards at once. Not a 100 percent perfect replacement since it can't enable turn two shenanigans but its close enough.

Is Lim-Dul's Vault that good? I don't have a seal and plan on buying more power first. However I do have a play set of German Lim-Dul's Vaults.

[Wave]

@ smmenen and ambivalentduck

@Imperial Seal if you can't afford the Seal try Lim-Dûls Vault instead, It might cost one more mana however it makes up for it by being an instant that can tutor for several cards at once. Not a 100 percent perfect replacement since it can't enable turn two shenanigans but its close enough.

Is Lim-Dul's Vault that good? I don't have a seal and plan on buying more power first. However I do have a play set of German Lim-Dul's Vaults.

I'd like to think so, Imperial seal costing B enables more turn 2 wins and are able to search for hate cards earlier, however beyond turn one Vault is even and sometimes the better card. Since the slot is a one of the chances of drawing it in your initial 7 are kinda slim and a lot of games you don't even want to use the Seal on turn one when it interferes with your ability to answer stuff. With Vault however you can play the draw go game and at the right time find the one or two missing pieces to go off. I'd like to say it's a good replacement based on my experience, but it all depends on what card it replaces.

[Mith]

Played Steve's list with one Ritual and 4x Snuff Out in the Board and top-4'd a rather small Xtreme Games tourney.

One Ritual was by-far all that I ever wanted to see and/or tutor for. I never had trouble casting DDay, and was happy to tutor for the ritual when needed.

The list felt very solid. Shops was quite manageable, and next time I'll be adding a red splash for Chewers and a Pyroclasm.

[personalbackfire]

Played Steve's list with one Ritual and 4x Snuff Out in the Board and top-4'd a rather small Xtreme Games tourney.

One Ritual was by-far all that I ever wanted to see and/or tutor for. I never had trouble casting DDay, and was happy to tutor for the ritual when needed.

The list felt very solid. Shops was quite manageable, and next time I'll be adding a red splash for Chewers and a Pyroclasm.

Cool, glad you liked the deck!

After Smennen's comments I've cut the rituals and probe (and consequently the Necro) from the deck and have been happy in goldfishing. I look forward to playing the deck in 2 weeks at the MVP tournament in Lancater, PA.

One thing I was wondering is if Trygon Predator is worth playing or if the red spash is worth it?

[Smmenen]

Played Steve's list with one Ritual and 4x Snuff Out in the Board and top-4'd a rather small Xtreme Games tourney.

One Ritual was by-far all that I ever wanted to see and/or tutor for. I never had trouble casting DDay, and was happy to tutor for the ritual when needed.

The list felt very solid. Shops was quite manageable, and next time I'll be adding a red splash for Chewers and a Pyroclasm.

Cool, glad you liked the deck!

After Smennen's comments I've cut the rituals and probe (and consequently the Necro) from the deck and have been happy in goldfishing. I look forward to playing the deck in 2 weeks at the MVP tournament in Lancater, PA.

One thing I was wondering is if Trygon Predator is worth playing or if the red spash is worth it?

Based on what he said on twitter, I think Mith means me, Steve M, not Steve N .

[personalbackfire]

Based on what he said on twitter, I think Mith means me, Steve M, not Steve N .

Yea, I assumed he meant you. It's still cool he liked the deck though.

[Smmenen]

Played Steve's list with one Ritual and 4x Snuff Out in the Board and top-4'd a rather small Xtreme Games tourney.

One Ritual was by-far all that I ever wanted to see and/or tutor for. I never had trouble casting DDay, and was happy to tutor for the ritual when needed.

The list felt very solid. Shops was quite manageable, and next time I'll be adding a red splash for Chewers and a Pyroclasm.

Cool, glad you liked the deck!

After Smennen's comments I've cut the rituals and probe (and consequently the Necro) from the deck and have been happy in goldfishing. I look forward to playing the deck in 2 weeks at the MVP tournament in Lancater, PA.

One thing I was wondering is if Trygon Predator is worth playing or if the red spash is worth it?

I used Trygon Predator in this deck in tournaments before (you can find my deck on Morphlling.de), but I think red and Chewer is better. 

I'm a big fan of Snuff out in this deck's sideboard, but it's harder to use if you don't use a Swamp as a basic and use a Mountain/more Islands instead.