VINTAGE on Magic Online is announced!!!

[nedleeds]

I for one am not interested in buying sql server rows from Randy Bueller but if it spurs even a 100 people to try to pick up vintage then that's great. In reality I doubt it will do much to push real sanctioned vintage though. Perhaps proxy tourneys will see an uptick as players can give vintage a drive before coming out. This won't affect any "metagame" as the availability will be completely different IRL. The vast majority of IRL vintage players won't buy in for one reason or another (interface, already ave this stuff why pay, price of surrounding staples, etc.).

Another thing to keep in mind is that power is on it's own rarity sheet, meaning it's going to be super rare. Meaning the prices might creep north of $100 for a guid assigned to your account / mox. I think you are insane for even considering paying that much for a row in a database when a Bazaar costs $200.

[MaximumCDawg]

Do you guys think Wizards is announcing this so far in advance because they're worried about that World of Warcraft trading card game online cutting into their player base?  It's been getting pretty good reviews.  It'll never replaced Magic in my book, but the GUI looks waaaay better than the ugly monstrosity that is MTGO.

[Smmenen]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg_daily_other_10212013_vintagemasters

Our world has changed.

Awesome!

Whoa!

Now, I'm not gonna get in line to order up virtual versions of Power.  Magic isn't about playing in your basement on the computer, it's about going out and interacting with other people.  However... anything that gets the Vintage format more accessibility, lowers the buy-in, and possibly lays the groundwork for the expansion of the format is A-OK in my book!

I hope this is the first step down a long and successful road to the resurgence of the format!

Yes, I see them as complementary formats.  I can compete in Vintage online, and play in real life tournaments.  More Vintage is better. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

I for one am not interested in buying sql server rows

Meaning the prices might creep north of $100 for a guid assigned to your account / mox. I think you are insane for even considering paying that much for a row in a database when a Bazaar costs $200.

That's really the thing: you pay a lot of money for a virtual card you don't in any sense own. If MtGO ends, it's because it's unprofitable and there's nobody to sell your account to because demand has died and everyone knows MtGO is closing down. Compare this to crappy old collectibles that nobody cares about. Ie. The Decipher Star Wars, Middle Earth, or V:tES cards. Those still have value even though they completely lack official support or tourney support. In fact, the most sought after cards (equivalent to Ancestral Recall) from those games (Lord Vader, Lidless Eye, etc) retain about half their peak values.

Draft cubes are hella fun and people will keep decks/cubes on hand long after Wizards stops support for the game. It's hard to imagine black bordered dual lands ever going below $100/each on eBay again. A foil Black Lotus is worthless. A real Black Lotus is a traded commodity like any other.

[dangerlinto]

I for one am not interested in buying sql server rows

Meaning the prices might creep north of $100 for a guid assigned to your account / mox. I think you are insane for even considering paying that much for a row in a database when a Bazaar costs $200.

That's really the thing: you pay a lot of money for a virtual card you don't in any sense own. If MtGO ends, it's because it's unprofitable and there's nobody to sell your account to because demand has died and everyone knows MtGO is closing down. Compare this to crappy old collectibles that nobody cares about. Ie. The Decipher Star Wars, Middle Earth, or V:tES cards. Those still have value even though they completely lack official support or tourney support. In fact, the most sought after cards (equivalent to Ancestral Recall) from those games (Lord Vader, Lidless Eye, etc) retain about half their peak values.

Draft cubes are hella fun and people will keep decks/cubes on hand long after Wizards stops support for the game. It's hard to imagine black bordered dual lands ever going below $100/each on eBay again. A foil Black Lotus is worthless. A real Black Lotus is a traded commodity like any other.

This is a really old, hashed out argument.

A digital card is a poor collectible - this is true.  But then, the value of a magic card is not limited to it's value as a collectible alone. 

[gkraigher]

Argument of physical cards vs digital:

physical cards

pros:
-are actual limited commodities that cannot be reprinted, unless wizards decides to abandon the reprint policy.
-look beautiful
-can be smuggled through customs unknowingly, and converted into cash in most countries (and other tax advantages)

cons:
-you have to travel to tournaments
-natural disaster and fires
-theft is a lot easier

digital cards:

pros:
-you can play with these cards whenever you want, and in tournaments that fit your schedule without leaving your home or traveling
-theft is very difficult, and destruction impossible
-you could conceivably win enough vintage/classic tourneys online to qualified for the MOCS and get a shot at a pro-tour bid for being good at Vintage

cons:
-can be reprinted at the will of wizards (although they have been reasonable in allowing digital cards to have and maintain values)

[MaximumCDawg]

You forgot the biggest differences of all between digital and physical cards:

1. Totally different security issues.  Securing physical cards requires a locked door or safe, same as the rest of your belongings.  Securing digital cards requires passwords and security from hackers.  Not that one is necessarily more foolproof than the other, they're just different.  But, then again, you don't have to worry about some criminal in Russia with a computer stealing your physical cards...

And more importantly:

2. Online games end.  Remember City of Heroes?  Even World of Warcraft is going to shut down its servers eventually.  Once that happens, your digital cards go "poof."  With physical cards, meanwhile, you can play them with your grandkids down the road as long as you keep them dry and safe.

EDIT: Also, no pack smell and no card shuffling tactile feedback.  Seriously, the ink high is the only reason I even bother to crack packs anymore.

[nedleeds]

There is no limit to the "printing", WoTC can just manipulate the price by inserting rows. I think if you could buy 40 duals and 40 fetches in a Sorcerers Land Box for MTGO for something reasonable like $100.00. You might get some people interested but by the time you add up the prices you can buy quite a few reserved list staples IRL. It's just not even an option, I'd sooner sink the cash into more beta duals.

Underground Sea - $40

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Underground+Sea+%5BME2%5D

Polluted Delta - $21

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Polluted+Delta+%5BONS%5D

Mana Drain - $26

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Mana+Drain+%5BME3%5D

Workshop - $28

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Mishra%27s+Workshop+%5BME4%5D

force of Will - $103

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/card/Force+of+Will+%5BMED%5D

[nedleeds]

-you have to travel to tournaments

This is a pro to most socially aware, non-shut ins. We can all sit at home and play vintage on cockatrice right now if we wanted to (on a mac even).

-theft is a lot easier

This is a stretch, your laptop probably is a more attractive target than a white cardboard box to the average thief.

-you could conceivable win enough vintage/classic tourneys online to qualified for the MOCS and get a shot at a pro-tour bid for being good at Vintage

If they fire, and now you have to play draft or standard in the MOCS to get to a PT and play ... standard. Enjoy 22mountains.dec or whatever is competitive these days. Grinding vintage to obtain the right to play standard qualifiers is a really weak pro.

[Craft]

And more importantly:

2. Online games end.  Remember City of Heroes?  Even World of Warcraft is going to shut down its servers eventually.  Once that happens, your digital cards go "poof."  With physical cards, meanwhile, you can play them with your grandkids down the road as long as you keep them dry and safe.

I think that calling Magic Online an "Online Game (colloquial)" is a bit of a misnomer.

At this point, with MTGO accounting for such a large percentage of Wizards' profit, it's safe to say that the fates of either medium are linked.

I poo-pooed MTGO when it first came out, but now it's practically my only outlet for regular play. And now with Vintage coming I will finally want for nothing.

[aahz]

Collecting the "cards" and building a collection of "cards" in the digital world is not the same as with real cards. I might have a different view if I didn't already have a more or less complete Vintage collection IRL that I've spent a good chunk of the last two decades putting together. Why would I pay even a couple hundred dollars to build just one Vintage deck in MTGO when I can play anything IRL? It feels wrong to me, even if it would mean I could play more Vintage. My beef with Vintage on MTGO is the collection aspect of it. I don't want to build a collection from scratch, nor do I want to draft outside of Cube (and I wouldn't pay $ for each Cube draft either). I'd only be on MTGO to play Vintage Constructed.

There's also another issue that is a deal breaker: MTGO requires Windows (or Mac?). There is no Linux support (and most likely never will be). I only use Linux (it's the principle of the thing  ). Sure, I can run a virtual machine, install a pirated copy of Windows, and run the MTGO software. But that seems like kind of a sketchy way to go, especially considering the additional investment to actually build a Vintage deck.

If I could pay a reasonable subscription fee that would let me play Vintage Constructed online, including access to any and all cards necessary, then I'd be all over it. If I have to "buy" each individual "card", I'll just continue to play IRL with my real collection.

[gkraigher]

This is a pro to most socially aware, non-shut ins. (on travel)

I certainly agree that playing in person is much better.  But Vintage tournaments aren't exactly in every state/region.  I just moved from Chicago, where there were monthly Vintage events, to Atlanta where there is no vintage community and no tourneys.  So now, if I want to use my power in person, I have to travel far and away and stay in a hotel.  

In all honestly, I would argue travel costs are one of the major reasons why most players don't bother with Vintage.  When compared to the price of Modern cards, a lot of players could easily trade their collections/part of their collections to get a Vintage deck.  But there is more to Vintage costs than just putting the deck together.  There is the time and money associated with playing, especially when your community isn't supportive.  

Playing online completely eliminates that cost.  

And no, having your computer stolen doesn't mean you lose your online collection of cards.  It is password protected and stored online.  That is not the issue.  The issue is if you get hacked, so come up with a good password.  

At this point, with MTGO accounting for such a large percentage of Wizards' profit, it's safe to say that the fates of either medium are linked.

I was very reluctant to start playing magic online years ago for the same reason.  Why would you want a digital version of something you can have physically?  Over time, with the ease and growth of Magic online, I have changed my opinion.  There are things that are better about the online version than the physical one:  1) the game doesn't allow you or your opponent to miss triggers 2) each person has a clock so neither one can stall 3) the elimination of shuffling  4) the elimination of cheating.  5) the ease of sitting in your pajamas playing competitive magic and watching football on a Sunday.  

But back to travel and proximity, I've observed from watching pro-tour coverage that players from different countries play magic differently.  Americans play differently from  the Japanese, Brazilians, French, etc.  The Americans and the Europeans were fortunate that Magic released the early sets in their languages, and we benefited from having the early power opened in our countries.  I am really excited to see how the Japanese or the Russians develop Vintage when the masses have access to the cards.  Or even just allowing more pro tour players access to the cards. 

[Yare]

Any thoughts on what this will do to the price of paper vintage cards, namely the power 9?  Or will it depend upon whether this spurs a greater interest in sanctioned paper Vintage (which, in my opinion, seems unlikely given the perpetual problem of power being really expensive)?

[tribet]

If I wanted more testings and get better at the game, I would have probably downloaded Cockatrice ages ago. I must like collecting, shuffling, talking, bluffing and laughing more than playing the game itself.

If you're offering me to play the game online, charge me a $200 yearly fee, or sell me a DVD. The problem is that you want me to trade pixels in your fake market place, no thanks.

Saying that, it's great for Vintage and, since you're very greedy, I suppose we're getting one step closer from some P9 cardboard reprints one day.

[gkraigher]

Cockatrice is great for playtesting with friends.  For tournament play, Magic Online has always been better. 

The cost of a magic online account should be considered more like a deposit.  If you have to spend $1000 to play vintage in Magic Online, it would be pretty safe to say you will get most of it back when you try and sell it.  I've sold my Magic Online account 4 times, and each time I got something I considered very close to fair value on it.  There are a lot of great vendors who will give you a respectable quote on your collection. 

I think the difference between Magic Online and other online computer games with real economies is that the game of Magic stays the same.  Other games are constantly being improved upon, both graphics wise and game play wise.  Magic is immune to that. 

[tribet]

Why can't they offer these 2 options to players:
- Buy the virtual cards: trade, sell, play with your card pool only
- Pay a subscription fee (monthly or per event): no trade, no sale, you own nothing. Play with whole card pool for the duration of your subscription (or event)   

Magic is a game but now the money thing is all around and I blame Wizard first for that one. You can't even trade $2 cards anymore without people doing a price check.

[yugular]

Why can't they offer these 2 options to players:
- Buy the virtual cards: trade, sell, play with your card pool only
- Pay a subscription fee (monthly or per event): no trade, no sale, you own nothing. Play with whole card pool for the duration of your subscription (or event)

That would make running events harder. Obviously people with cards and subscription cannot be in the same events and price payouts have to be different etc. They would have to basically "double" the whole system if they added users that have different statuses. I cannot see that building two different ways to play mtgo would be sustainable.

[tribet]

My problem with the current model is that Wizards forces the players to trade, sell, speculate, steal, cheat, hack. For some, the MTG market place is a game within the Game. I'm only interested in the Magic game. I have no issue with giving my money to Wizards so I thought they should know.

The issue is clear: they created an economic bubble and players are hostages. I don't think it would be that hard to have 2 MTGO systems running in parallel but there would be smart ways to do a smooth transition into the one "Full Card Pool MTGO":
  Redeem your Tix = Receive cardboard cards as replacement
  Redeem your Tix = Get X months of free subscription to the new MTGO
  Redeem your Tix = Receive invites or byes to whichever event (Online, PT, GP, Champs...)
  Redeem your Tix = Unlock & play with the new sets a few weeks before the official release date
  Redeem your Tix = Get your cash back at a fixed rate


The secundary market is what will kill the Game (whether it is online or in real) but I think it is also about values and how Wizards/Hasbro see themselves.

[tito del monte]

Echoing everyone else so far - this is obviously a good step, even if it isn't right for everyone. I've been wanting to use MTGO for a while because I'm boring old git who doesn't want to trek across town to be able to draft now and again. The huge irritation for me is that there is no Mac version of the clinet (or Linux as someone pointed out earlier). That just seems painfully short-sighted in 2013.

One thing that someone pointed out MTG Salvation (maybe also a TMD user, I don't know), was that it might be possible post-Vintage Masters to explore the option of running "sanctioned proxy tournaments", where you could register your online Vintage deck to play a paper tournament with proxies. Hell, Wizards could even print something akin to the double-faced checklist card as an official proxy to allow this to happen. As far as I can see, that would be the best route to salvaging and growing the format (as a real, sanctioned and supported format), given the ongoing existence of the Reserved List.

In the meantime, see you all at BOM for the real deal!

[Pomaxx]

some more pros on playing online with virtual cards:

-no farkin shuffling it up and lets be honest, with all the tutors and fetchlands you do shuffle a bazillion times in Vintage

-beside the fact that you have to invest into your stuff again (this only occurs if you do own the stuff in RL) you may get your investments back by playing in some Daily events on a regular basis

-managing your collection and decks becomes a lot easier

-you will be able to test and compete at a pretty good level whenever you find time




"But dude...whats up with my collection once MTGO shuts down and noone plays that game anymore?" yeah! its almost as likely as RL Magic not seeing any more play and Hasbro decides to get rid of it. than your RL cards (which as a matter of fact do only have some value because some guys agree that hard paper and cardboard with some ink on it deserves a certain amaount of cash-comparable to digital objects to some point) will be worthless as well. both very unlikely, as MTGO is Wizards cash cow. they might try to ruin things a bt with crappy new clients and dumb chnages here and there, but that wont stop MTGO.

[DubDub]

They can't go subscription because 'getting the cards' is part of the reward system for participating in drafts and tournaments online.  I and I'm sure many others would be interested in a subscription service, but that's because it's a better deal for consumers, not for the company.

We may see many effects on paper Vintage from this:
-Current powered players may sell out of paper to go online only.
-Current paper players (powered or not) may complement their paper-play with online-play.
-Current online players may buy into online Vintage.  (Of whom some may go further and pursue paper power.)

Ultimately my guess is that in the medium term 1-2 years after release this will cause a net-transfer of paper power from players to collectors along with a slight decrease in prices for non-Legacy eternal cards.  I think probably over the five years after release sanctioned paper tournaments will continue to decline, probably if they choose to hold separate online and paper Vintage World Championships in the first five years the online tourney will be larger than the in-person tourney (if not even right away).

If they allow online-ownership to equal permitted-to-use-paper-proxy (which I highly doubt) then my guesses may change.  But why would they do that instead of reprinting Reserve List cards and making money twice?

[gkraigher]

2) What's up with the horrible art on those power cards?

With the exception of the black lotus, these alt arts are from the Vintage World Championships.  

The reason why wizards does this is because they don't own the old art on cards.  The art is still owned, or has been transferred to someone else, by the original artist.  Wizards changed that policy long ago (not sure on the date) so they could reprint the art on cards without paying royalties.  

If they allow online-ownership to equal permitted-to-use-paper-proxy (which I highly doubt) then my guesses may change.  But why would they do that instead of reprinting Reserve List cards and making money twice?

This won't happen.  The digital and the physical versions of cards are separate.  And will never be inter-connected, with the exception being redemption of newer sets.  Like Modern Masters, Masters Editions 1-4, all the From the Vaults, commander decks, etc. Vintage Masters is not redeemable for physicals cards.  Or proxies. 

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I've played a bit of modern on mtgo, which was fun. So I have bits and pieces of vintage playables. That being said, I do not plan dumping the huge pile of cash in any time soon unless the price for fow goes down an insane amount.

I'm also not keen on the prices of pretty much every rare that sees legacy play when compared to the price of the cardboard.

However, it would be really nice to be able to find more consistent games an up my skill. My play has gotten pretty loose over the years of the decline of vintage.

[The Wolf]

I'm actually expecting a FoW reprint in this set as well as a few other cards.  Vamp is a perfect example of a card that is insanely inflated online just because so few of them were opened. 
This being the only option for me to play vintage unless i want to get on a plane, I'm very excited. 

[Eastman]

Have to think this will increase the amount of attention paid to the vintage format by R&D and DC I,  which is only a good thing.

[AmbivalentDuck]

than your RL cards (which as a matter of fact do only have some value because some guys agree that hard paper and cardboard with some ink on it deserves a certain amaount of cash-comparable to digital objects to some point) will be worthless as well.

Already addressed:

If MtGO ends, it's because it's unprofitable and there's nobody to sell your account to because demand has died and everyone knows MtGO is closing down. Compare this to crappy old collectibles that nobody cares about. Ie. The Decipher Star Wars, Middle Earth, or V:tES cards. Those still have value even though they completely lack official support or tourney support. In fact, the most sought after cards (equivalent to Ancestral Recall) from those games (Lord Vader, Lidless Eye, etc) retain about half their peak values.

Cardboard retains value after official support ends as evidenced by the value of unsupported cardboard from other games. Digital information simply vanishes without an official maintainer. Or worse, an unofficial maintainer gives everyone 4x everything.

[Smmenen]

than your RL cards (which as a matter of fact do only have some value because some guys agree that hard paper and cardboard with some ink on it deserves a certain amaount of cash-comparable to digital objects to some point) will be worthless as well.

Already addressed:

If MtGO ends, it's because it's unprofitable and there's nobody to sell your account to because demand has died and everyone knows MtGO is closing down. Compare this to crappy old collectibles that nobody cares about. Ie. The Decipher Star Wars, Middle Earth, or V:tES cards. Those still have value even though they completely lack official support or tourney support. In fact, the most sought after cards (equivalent to Ancestral Recall) from those games (Lord Vader, Lidless Eye, etc) retain about half their peak values.

Cardboard retains value after official support ends as evidenced by the value of unsupported cardboard from other games. Digital information simply vanishes without an official maintainer. Or worse, an unofficial maintainer gives everyone 4x everything.

Eh, there are limits to this argument that undercut its validity.  Yes, cards may retain value, but it may be such a small fraction of the original value as to make your argument true, but unpersuasive.  People have often speculated that wizards would reprint high value cards if Magic were dying anyway. 

Also, when the copyright on some cards expires sometime around 2080, cards can be reprinted anyway.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Not sure what you want here, Steve. Here's a complete set from a MECCG expansion clearing $400. Want to talk singles instead?  Lord Vader from the Decipher Star Wars TCG used to be reliably $50, here it is selling for $20.

Can we find anecdotes of dead games where the cards are literally worthless? Sure. But that's not every game. And to put things in perspective, Mirage and the Lideless Eye expansion came out right around the same time. That set of mirage isn't quite $100 despite LED, Dreadnought, and the topdeck tutors.

[vaughnbros]

As a vintage and limited player, I personally am extremely excited about a format that combines these two things.  If only it wasn't a long 8 month wait.  I look forward to first seeing what wizards decides to put into the vintage masters set.

[Smmenen]

Not sure what you want here, Steve.

I'm not asking for data.  I'm simply illustrating the logical limits and therefore relevance of your point.