Thoughts on Eternal Weekend Top 8 Lists

[Soly]

This was originally going to be part of a bigger article for Eternal Central, but since I am back on TMD, I figured I'd post it here in order to get a discussion going.

Merfolk: Joel Lim
Like most, my assumption was to attribute the wins Joel was having on the East Coast to a good player playing a pet deck in a field that seems soft to a sea of men (pun intended).   However, in retrospect, this seems to be an absolute incorrect assessment, and actually I fell for the same thought pattern that others had for RUG Delver when I was having success with it last year.
 Moving forward as more players pilot this deck successfully, players will be forced to respect it with Sideboard and maybe even Maindeck cards.  

Storm – Reid Duke
Reid’s list would have greatly benefited from him actually upgrading the deck with more modern card considerations;  I don’t believe this list is a player as it currently exists.  There is no reason to play a storm deck without Oath of Druids right now as putting Griselbrand onto the battlefield is the most consistent thing you can be doing in Vintage to end the game right now. He admitted himself on his Star City Games article that he benefitted greatly by not playing against Workshop decks.  Also, I can’t imagine a non-Oath storm variant ever beating RUG Delver.

Blue Angels – Taylor Pratt  
I never really tested much against this deck or Bomberman, as I find that both these lists are inferior to basically every other deck in Vintage.  Whatever these decks are trying to do, there is SOMETHING out there that does that gameplan better, or so I thought.  What I didn’t realize is just how quickly this deck can switch gears from being a do-nothing deck, to applying serious pressure.   I had the pleasure (or rather, displeasure, since I lost) to play against Taylor in the Swiss.  In game 1 I was too cautious and allowed a Vendilion Clique to resolve, taking my Doomsday and leaving me full up on Gushes and Counterspells, but nowhere to really go with them.  In both games I lost, I went from 15+ life to dead incredibly quick.  3 Vendilion Clique is no laughing matter also with 4 Jace the Mindsculptor as backup.  I argue that Teferi or something else with Flash would be better than the Angel, and I could also see True-Name Nemesis replacing Angel in the deck.  I know the Angel has synergy with the other creatures of the deck, but I still feel that’s too ‘cute’.  I’d also want 2 Snapcaster Mages in the list somewhere.  I don’t see this being a major contender moving forward, but that’s more to the fact this list doesn’t really ‘do’ anything, and most vintage players won’t bother trying it.
Moving forward, I think the deck could be overhalled into Vintage stoneblade.  A couple Stoneforge Mystics, a Batterskull, a Jitte, and some TN-Nemesis along the Cliques would seem to be really good.  Of course, I don’t even own any Tundras, so test it if you feel the thought is a decent one.

RUG Delver:  AJ Grasso and Benamin Donais
Oh Man.  Everyone who knows me knows I could write in great detail about RUG Delver (and strangely enough, I HAVE!  See my signature for the RUG Primer) .  This was my deck of choice for at least 10 months in 2012, as well as being the one who developed the deck and the one who broke it out at Gencon last year.

Anyway, I digress.  One card I wouldn’t cut that AJ did though is Vendilion Clique.  The main thing though, is I think it’s peculiar both players cut the Forest and Mountain from the deck. I’d like to at some point hear both Ben and AJ’s reason for the cuts.   Funny thing is, when cutting the basics, you actually make your Merfolk matchup weaker, as you cannot fetch for non-islands to cast your best spells (Lightning Bolt and Tarmogoyf, or Young Pyromancer in AJ’s case).   The key to that matchup is to never advance beyond 2 Islands, so you can Gush in combat to turn off their Islandwalk.   I don’t think the matchup is unwinnable, but I definitely think you really need to play tight (and your opponent needs to not open with Black Lotus twice).  I completely disagree with running Spell Pierce, but that may be due to a personal distaste for the card, as it never does anything relevant after turn 2, and often times doesn’t do anything after turn 1.  I do like seeing Umezawa’s Jitte in AJ’s sideboard.  It’s a card I have contemplated but never had the opportunity to play.
Moving forward, I am almost certain I would play 2 Dismember in this deck’s sideboard. Another option I had contemplated last year was Rough//Tumble.

Dredge - Erik Pentycofe
I mean no disrespect to Erik, congrats on the top 8, but Dredge doesn’t interest me, or the average vintage player, and hell, the average magic player, in the least bit.    
If you have a lot of dredge in your Metagame, Sideboard these 7 cards:  3 Trapmaker’s Snare, 4 Ravenous Trap.  All their hate is dedicated to permanents or 1 mana spells, so this sideboard is insanely good against them, as it makes it hard for them to EVER get anything going. Plus, it’s fun to watch them name the wrong card with Cabal Therapy, and frown when they read Trapmaker’s Snare (Which trust me, they’ll have to).

Oath of Druids - Greg Fenton
Greg has been on a tear with Oath of Druids.  Unfortunately, it’s a very straightforward deck, and as Greg even puts it he just “beep beep boop”s his opponents.  I don’t think there’s anything really innovative about the list, other than the fact no real ‘control’ based oath deck has Top 8ed a Champs event since 2008.

4CC – Kevin Chron
I refuse to call this deck Keeper.  It is a 4CC deck similar to what Thomas Dixon had been playing for a month or two.  Kevin did run Ancestral Recall, though.  The deck just takes all of the control and combo-control oriented cards that have been already proven to be good in vintage, and mashes a number between 1 and 4 of them in the deck, along with Deathrite Shamans.   Be prepared to face at least 3 Jace, and I could make an argument for 4.  Also note the number of each Counterspell will change from person to person.  For example, one person might not play ANY Spell Snares, and one person could play 3.  The customization of this deck is what will make it always unique, and somewhat difficult to play against.

[Commandant]

I shipped the UW Flash list to Taylor the night before the event. The fact of the matter is that the Drain-Jace control shell is something that has consistently performed over the past year. Whether it's UW with Auriok Salvagers/Restoration Angel or Josh Potucek's UR Landstill it's here to stay and I think underestimating it is a mistake.

[Samoht]

While it was great to see Kevin take my list and run with it, he made some key changes that should be noted. Moving to 3 City of Brass at the trade off 3 Wasteland was a wonderful hedge in the Shop light Metagame of Champs. This made it significantly easier to keep hands by ensuring that casting all of the spells in it was a higher possibility. My local metagame is significantly denser in regards to Mishra and I chose to play the 3 additional Wastes for those games, and mulliganed accordingly. He also made the move to the Divining Top, which I don't think is necessary but I understand. I prefer cards that have immediate impact and not simply filtering. Many have used the Top to great success and I feel it comes down to preference more than anything else. By cutting Steel Sabotage from the main he is a little weaker to Tinker -> BSC, but he gets to play more direct permission than I had been which makes resolving that significantly harder to do. His SB is interesting, with 8 cards for Dredge (plus the MD DRS) alone is very heavy. That's probably very smart considering how well Dredge has done in big events. I like playing divergent strategies (Remove w/ LotV and Turn Off with GDC). I had been playing only 2 removal cards and chose to run Nihil Spellbomb because of it's value in other match ups (Landstill, Espresso, Sui-Black) as a cantrip with an ability. Leyline is a card I would probably only run as a four of, which Kevin chose to do. I often like to add in Helm of Obedience when doing so as a Tinker target. I would like to see some amount of Flusterstorm in the list and certainly more Mindbreak Trap and Abrupt Decay. The last two cards are so powerful right now. Decay at stopping almost every game plan in its tracks and Mindbreak Trap for stopping Decay/Cavern - cards that are slowly pushing traditional blue decks into either playing them or losing to them.

[Samoht]

I shipped the UW Flash list to Taylor the night before the event. The fact of the matter is that the Drain-Jace control shell is something that has consistently performed over the past year. Whether it's UW with Auriok Salvagers/Restoration Angel or Josh Potucek's UR Landstill it's here to stay and I think underestimating it is a mistake.

UW Bomberman/Blue Angels is a very different beast from URg Landstill. I agree that underestimating either is a mistake though, both decks have very strong gameplans and require direct answers quickly before things get out of hand.

[cvarosky80]

I had never heard of Trapmaker's Snare until now. That's actually really clever.

[Soly]

Hmm just wondering out loud:
If you're on the trapmaker's tutor plan, wouldn't it also make sense to include 1-2 mindbreak traps in the sideboard to combat storm decks ? (Assuming that there are any storm decks where you play).

Generally, my Sideboard would be:

3 Trapmaker's Snare
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Mindbreak Trap

Whenever I played the deck.  Against storm, I used to board in +1 Snare, +2 Mindbreak, +1 Ravenous; this of course is before Giselbrand, when the deck's only real way to win games was Yawgmoth's Willenium.

[Soly]

The field is definitely much different than it was when the Traps originally came out.   It also depends on if your deck is soft to Oath or not, as the card is a player in two major decks.

[jlim17]

Thanks for the quick rundown of your insightful thoughts on these decks, Soly, and welcome back to TMD!

As far as the Blue Angel's deck, which Craig Berry initially crashed our scene with this year, the deck's strength really seems to be its ability to fluently move between roles. It packs just about as much control as landstill to give combo fits, but is able to survive against early creature rushes. An expert with this deck can be able to outplay the other blue control decks as well, especially with the inevitability of cavern of souls-powered flying creatures. I think adding stoneforge to this mana base is something that could be successful but would inherently change the deck into something else, as it would have to tap mana on its own turn.

For the Traps against dredge, my thought was always that you run the risk of them just therapy'ing these cards out of your hand before you can use them effectively. If they miss with the first, they can just flash it back. And therapy never gets sided out, so its always a risk. If you use permanent hate, they have to draw their anti-hate and then resolve it before you land more. They also run the risk of not having the right anti-hate cards at the right time. Since this is the current trend, dredgers are now packing all the anti-permanent hate like you mention so its curious to think if that means we should go back to some non-permanent hate.

As far as RUG Delver goes, as AJ admitted, you can change the slots to increase your Merfolk odds but this will hurt your other matchups. For instance, Snapcaster (over Pyromancer?) is good against Merfolk, but may be too ineffective against other blue decks. The deck obviously has a solid base (thanks to you), so the pilot will just have to make decisions on the expected field, while considering personal preferences, for the slots in question. Off the bat in the US, I would expect/assume that we'll see an influx of more fair decks, maybe even the Stoneforge build you mention. Combo should then start seeing more solid finishes, then the more pure control decks like landstill and shops should start popping up again, leading to more fair/creature decks after that. Overall, this probably just forces one to build for a diverse field. Or, practically speaking, NOTHING may change and Merfolk can still be the best deck in the format (...BOOOM!!!)   

[Twiedel]

First of all, big congratulations from Germany as well to all the top 8 players and Joel Lim especially. Well done!!
What I wrote below is just an expression of my current feelings to the decks and their position in the meta, so please don't take any offense from that.
Now, to get a bit into detail about my feelings on the decks:

Merfolk: Joel Lim
Eye-opening for me as well, Soly described it pretty good. Most of us thought that this stuff is pet-deck shenanigans and nothing to worry about, but it turns out, while slowing down more and more and more to fight the Jace fights, other guys still attack in Vintage, and having some uncounterable, unblockable guys IS pretty solid. I'm gonna playtest the hell out of this to find it's weak spots, but it seems it just eats blue decks alive.

Blue Angels – Taylor Pratt
To keep it short - I was never impressed with that Angel unless we are talking casual stuff like highlander (and even there I cut it btw). I think in this field, the deck was well positioned, no question, but for me this is not a direction that the format is going. I think most of the power that is in this deck, is just way more streamlined in the delver deck or the straight on merfolk deck. For me this has the same problem as any blue control deck at the moment: Too slow. By far.

Dredge - Erik Pentycofe
It's Dredge, deal with it or die. That's the whole story here, apart from one tiny thing: Whenever people were complaining about dredge decks in my area, I always responded "At least it is keeping the crappy creature decks out of Vintage". I guess that is over now...

Oath of Druids - Greg Fenton
As most people know, I don't fully appreciate Oaht of Druids as an archetype. I can get behind using it as some backup plan, but even that is hard for me to justify. Since 4 Brainstorms have not been an option lately, I think running more dead cards than the average Vintage deck (0-2) feels pretty bad for me. With that many creatures around, it might be worth a try, but whenever I gave it a try in the past, it just felt pretty bad in the long run. I think Oath will always be played, and always be around to some degree (if only by the sheer number of people playing it), but I hope we won't see so many creature decks that this becomes our #1 strategy.

"Keeper" - Kevin Cron
I must admit, I feel a bit like Soly when it comes down to calling this deck "Keeper". But even if we don't see too many cards shared with the old-fashioned Keeper we have in mind, this is what Keeper has always been about. Playing the control role, with cards that fit the metagame. I loved to see a deck like this in the top 8, and though it seems a bit underpowered compared to the other decks, Kevin surely had a good read on the meta here! Verdict: Will be around forever, and good whenever someone hits the spot with metagaming.

RUG Delver:  AJ Grasso and Benamin Donais
A deck that has proven it's right to be part of the top decks, and I must admit, if I needed to pick one creature deck which I liked best, it would be this one. So much interaction, has the best colour in Magic, plays Gush, what's not to love? No, seriously, I think this is a pretty solid deck in an environment that basically wants to do something broken, cast artifacts or kill the opponent with creatures. It has good measures to foil all that plans, either in disabling the opponent or racing them. Will be intersting to see where this is going in the future.

Storm – Reid Duke
I might be a bit biased. My favourite deck of all time. SO let's try to be completely objective: It's freaking awesome!!
Now that we have that out of the way, on a serious note, my opinion is exactly opposite to that of Mr. Solymossy. I think this deck is going to be a major player in the months to come. Right now I am thinking about writing some article on Eternal Central about my reasoning behind this, so I'll keep it short for now: When all decks are slowing down and messing around with creatures, why not just try to win? Of course, I'd update the list here and there, but in general, I think Dark Ritual has been absent for too long. Doomsday is a good substitute, but nothing beats the real Tendrils feeling.

And to give Soly what he's been waiting for probably:

Also, I can’t imagine a non-Oath storm variant ever beating RUG Delver.

Looking forward to proving you wrong. Getting ready on MODO, but as that thing has no power right now, this is an official challenge for cockatrice play!

[vaughnbros]

UW Bomberman/Blue Angels is a very different beast from URg Landstill. I agree that underestimating either is a mistake though, both decks have very strong gameplans and require direct answers quickly before things get out of hand.

I disagree.  Both decks are very similar.  My success with a fusion of the two lists earlier this year should show that.  Both play the heavy control route of sitting behind counter magic until they can turn the corner and beat you with creatures, while still holding counter magic.  The only major difference is what card advantage engine they want to build around, one chooses trinket mage and the other standstill.

Blue Angels – Taylor Pratt
To keep it short - I was never impressed with that Angel unless we are talking casual stuff like highlander (and even there I cut it btw). I think in this field, the deck was well positioned, no question, but for me this is not a direction that the format is going. I think most of the power that is in this deck, is just way more streamlined in the delver deck or the straight on merfolk deck. For me this has the same problem as any blue control deck at the moment: Too slow. By far.

This is one of those decks that you not only need to see it, but you need to play it to believe it.  There's nothing impressive about the list until you realize how streamlined it is.  There is never dead cards, like drawing BSC, vault without key, drawing bob when low on life, ect.  The deck doesn't need a specific "field" to perform well because of this fact.  This summer at an 80+ man tournament in NY,  UW Angels it had 2 top 8's along with 2 top 8's of the similar UR landstill, totalling 4 pure control decks in the top 8 that I assume all fall under the "Too slow. By far.".  I'm fairly convinced the only reason we didn't see an even larger top 8 appearance of these pure control decks at worlds is because they were a very low percentage of the field.  Personally I'd take landstill or angels with a board sweeper in the sideboard over any other deck if I'm looking to beat merfolk and delver.

Blue Angels – Taylor Pratt  
I never really tested much against this deck or Bomberman, as I find that both these lists are inferior to basically every other deck in Vintage.  Whatever these decks are trying to do, there is SOMETHING out there that does that gameplan better, or so I thought.  What I didn’t realize is just how quickly this deck can switch gears from being a do-nothing deck, to applying serious pressure.  I don’t see this being a major contender moving forward, but that’s more to the fact this list doesn’t really ‘do’ anything, and most vintage players won’t bother trying it.

The question really is does it do nothing or does it do everything?  Looking at Kohler's Bomberman its capable of functioning as a control deck, aggro deck, and combo deck and do them all fairly efficiently.  UW Angels forgoes the combo plan for a stronger control/aggro plan.

If you have a lot of dredge in your Metagame, Sideboard these 7 cards:  3 Trapmaker’s Snare, 4 Ravenous Trap.  All their hate is dedicated to permanents or 1 mana spells, so this sideboard is insanely good against them, as it makes it hard for them to EVER get anything going. Plus, it’s fun to watch them name the wrong card with Cabal Therapy, and frown when they read Trapmaker’s Snare (Which trust me, they’ll have to).

There are two major issues with this game plan.  1. I only need one piece of permanent based hate to win against dredge, whereas I may need 2-4 traps in order to win.  2. Grafdigger's cage doubles as oath hate if you choose not to run it you weaken yourself against it.

[Samoht]

UW Bomberman/Blue Angels is a very different beast from URg Landstill. I agree that underestimating either is a mistake though, both decks have very strong gameplans and require direct answers quickly before things get out of hand.

I disagree.  Both decks are very similar.  My success with a fusion of the two lists earlier this year should show that.  Both play the heavy control route of sitting behind counter magic until they can turn the corner and beat you with creatures, while still holding counter magic.  The only major difference is what card advantage engine they want to build around, one chooses trinket mage and the other standstill.

I disagree that Josh's Landstill deck is going to beat you with creatures (because it plays none, manlands are very different). It is probably the purest version of a control deck that the format has seen. It really can't shift roles at all. Bomberman, and even more so Blue Angels, can shift roles very fluidly. Sure, you can hybridize them together - but that doesn't mean they are the same. In fact, it's the differences that make the hybridization of the two potentially successful, no?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

While we are talking about bomberman/angels/landstill...yes bomberman/angels can play an aggro role better then landstill, but some games landstill does the same. Not nearly as often but I happens. A hand with 2-3 manlands can put pressure on certain matchups sometimes. And I agree landstill is definitely more of a pure control deck in comparison.

[Samoht]

While we are talking about bomberman/angels/landstill...yes bomberman/angels can play an aggro role better then landstill, but some games landstill does the same. Not nearly as often but I happens. A hand with 2-3 manlands can put pressure on certain matchups sometimes. And I agree landstill is definitely more of a pure control deck in comparison.

A hand with 2-3 manlands is probably going to fold to anything in the format that isn't Shop + Spheres/Chalice without an actual threat though, right? We have 4-5 other cards but can't use any of them sans FoW/MM/Misd because all we have is factories.

Also, I never said that Landstill can't ever be aggressive or use the combat step - but you yourself even admit that the UW control decks are significantly more adept at doing that. I feel in most cases the role of the Landstill pilot is going to be control. Landstill is more adept at preventing things from ever being a problem, that is it's strength. The UW decks are much more adept at shifting gears when presented with a deck that can be more controlling - namely Landstill. Their ability to Cavern out Restoration Angel puts huge pressure on Landstill. There isn't a card that Landstill has that can do the same to them. To put them under the same umbrella of game plans is to me a mis-classification of what the decks are doing and where you need to fight them in order to win.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I agree... I was just saying I have won games based on the combat step combined with some mana denial and a couple counters. But in general I agree Samoht!

[Smmenen]

UW Bomberman/Blue Angels is a very different beast from URg Landstill. I agree that underestimating either is a mistake though, both decks have very strong gameplans and require direct answers quickly before things get out of hand.

I disagree.  Both decks are very similar.  My success with a fusion of the two lists earlier this year should show that.  Both play the heavy control route of sitting behind counter magic until they can turn the corner and beat you with creatures, while still holding counter magic.  The only major difference is what card advantage engine they want to build around, one chooses trinket mage and the other standstill.

I disagree that Josh's Landstill deck is going to beat you with creatures (because it plays none, manlands are very different). It is probably the purest version of a control deck that the format has seen. It really can't shift roles at all. Bomberman, and even more so Blue Angels, can shift roles very fluidly. Sure, you can hybridize them together - but that doesn't mean they are the same. In fact, it's the differences that make the hybridization of the two potentially successful, no?

I agree with this.
I call Landstill a pure Control deck, and Blue Angels as "Control-Aggro" deck (rather than Aggro-Control), to illustrate that its primary mode is Control, but it can shift easily to Aggro. 

[brianpk80]

I really dont see anything particularly "fair" about these decks. The finals that you won was completely one sided, AJ didnt stand a chance. I watched several Delver matches that where just as one sided.

"Unfair" is thought of as referring to decks containing the most busted & abusive cards ever printed, although the more things play out, it seems they're more unfair to their pilots than opponents, flipping Colossi, Oathing entire graveyards into the library without recourse, and generally just losing out to an ill timed Null Rod or Wasteland.  High reward but high risk.  Gambler decks. 

[brianpk80]

Why do people always assume that i do not know the magic slang of fair/unfair whenever i bring this up?

I didn't assume anything of the sort; I was making a completely different point. 

[vaughnbros]

I disagree that Josh's Landstill deck is going to beat you with creatures (because it plays none, manlands are very different). It is probably the purest version of a control deck that the format has seen. It really can't shift roles at all. Bomberman, and even more so Blue Angels, can shift roles very fluidly.

Even with Josh's landstill the deck does shift gears at some point in the match it starts to attack with its man lands or fateseal with Jace.  I mean the deck has to win the game at some point and attacking with 2 or 3 man lands late in the game or fatesealing when your opponent's in top deck mode is a potent clock.

Sure, you can hybridize them together - but that doesn't mean they are the same. In fact, it's the differences that make the hybridization of the two potentially successful, no?

The reason the hybrid works is the same reason that Bob and Gush work together.  A vast majority of the cards in each deck are the same when they are used separately.  When combined the two feed off each other to create an even more potent card advantage engine.

I call Landstill a pure Control deck, and Blue Angels as "Control-Aggro" deck (rather than Aggro-Control), to illustrate that its primary mode is Control, but it can shift easily to Aggro.  

They are both pure control decks.  If you are playing the aggro role with blue angels in any match up you are doing it wrong.  When you use the term Control-Aggro it suggests you are usually the control deck and sometimes the aggro, but blue angels is ALWAYS the control deck even when playing the mirror or landstill.  The same is true for landstill.

[Smmenen]

I disagree that Josh's Landstill deck is going to beat you with creatures (because it plays none, manlands are very different). It is probably the purest version of a control deck that the format has seen. It really can't shift roles at all. Bomberman, and even more so Blue Angels, can shift roles very fluidly.

Even with Josh's landstill the deck does shift gears at some point in the match it starts to attack with its man lands or fateseal with Jace.  I mean the deck has to win the game at some point and attacking with 2 or 3 man lands late in the game or fatesealing when your opponents in top deck mode is a potent clock.

But that's true of all slow control decks.   Even The Deck had to eventually start attacking with Serra Angels.  That doesn't make it any less of a pure control deck, from an archetype perspective. 

[vaughnbros]

I disagree that Josh's Landstill deck is going to beat you with creatures (because it plays none, manlands are very different). It is probably the purest version of a control deck that the format has seen. It really can't shift roles at all. Bomberman, and even more so Blue Angels, can shift roles very fluidly.

Even with Josh's landstill the deck does shift gears at some point in the match it starts to attack with its man lands or fateseal with Jace.  I mean the deck has to win the game at some point and attacking with 2 or 3 man lands late in the game or fatesealing when your opponents in top deck mode is a potent clock.

But that's true of all slow control decks.   Even The Deck had to eventually start attacking with Serra Angels.  That doesn't make it any less of a pure control deck, from an archetype perspective.  

You are agreeing with me so I'm not sure why the but is there.  I using that same logic to show that bomberman/blue angels are also a pure control deck.  You and Tom disagreed with me on that point.

[Smmenen]

I disagree that Josh's Landstill deck is going to beat you with creatures (because it plays none, manlands are very different). It is probably the purest version of a control deck that the format has seen. It really can't shift roles at all. Bomberman, and even more so Blue Angels, can shift roles very fluidly.

Even with Josh's landstill the deck does shift gears at some point in the match it starts to attack with its man lands or fateseal with Jace.  I mean the deck has to win the game at some point and attacking with 2 or 3 man lands late in the game or fatesealing when your opponents in top deck mode is a potent clock.

But that's true of all slow control decks.   Even The Deck had to eventually start attacking with Serra Angels.  That doesn't make it any less of a pure control deck, from an archetype perspective.  

You are agreeing with me so I'm not sure why the but is there.  I using that same logic to show that bomberman/blue angels are also a pure control deck.  You and Tom disagreed with me on that point.

It depends how decks generally use their finishers.  Bomber man and Blue Angels don't use their creatures as finishers once they have complete control.  They shift to an Aggro mode much sooner.  That's why I don't think they are pure control decks. 

[Samoht]

I disagree that Josh's Landstill deck is going to beat you with creatures (because it plays none, manlands are very different). It is probably the purest version of a control deck that the format has seen. It really can't shift roles at all. Bomberman, and even more so Blue Angels, can shift roles very fluidly.

Even with Josh's landstill the deck does shift gears at some point in the match it starts to attack with its man lands or fateseal with Jace.  I mean the deck has to win the game at some point and attacking with 2 or 3 man lands late in the game or fatesealing when your opponents in top deck mode is a potent clock.

But that's true of all slow control decks.   Even The Deck had to eventually start attacking with Serra Angels.  That doesn't make it any less of a pure control deck, from an archetype perspective.  

You are agreeing with me so I'm not sure why the but is there.  I using that same logic to show that bomberman/blue angels are also a pure control deck.  You and Tom disagreed with me on that point.

I think we're having a breakdown in communication, not necessarily a disagreement. There are hands that Blue Angels are presented with that are both eminently keepable and very aggressive. I've seen T1 Clique into T2 Resto Angel, then Time Walk into Snapcaster. Landstill CAN'T do that.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

T1 crucible, T2 Jace, T3 strip mine...Fuck the world lol

[Samoht]

T1 crucible, T2 Jace, T3 strip mine...Fuck the world lol

So our opponent has 2-3 lands in play, any number of moxes, and has been completely unfettered by us. We're down at least 6 of our 10 cards(if we're on the draw) to do all of this. That's nowhere near as aggressive as two Clique triggers and dead.

[vaughnbros]

I disagree that Josh's Landstill deck is going to beat you with creatures (because it plays none, manlands are very different). It is probably the purest version of a control deck that the format has seen. It really can't shift roles at all. Bomberman, and even more so Blue Angels, can shift roles very fluidly.

Even with Josh's landstill the deck does shift gears at some point in the match it starts to attack with its man lands or fateseal with Jace.  I mean the deck has to win the game at some point and attacking with 2 or 3 man lands late in the game or fatesealing when your opponents in top deck mode is a potent clock.

But that's true of all slow control decks.   Even The Deck had to eventually start attacking with Serra Angels.  That doesn't make it any less of a pure control deck, from an archetype perspective.  

You are agreeing with me so I'm not sure why the but is there.  I using that same logic to show that bomberman/blue angels are also a pure control deck.  You and Tom disagreed with me on that point.

It depends how decks generally use their finishers.  Bomber man and Blue Angels don't use their creatures as finishers once they have complete control.  They shift to an Aggro mode much sooner.  That's why I don't think they are pure control decks. 

This depends on play style and the state of the game.  I won't always have complete control over the board before I start attacking with landstill either nor does blue angels.  When my clock is significantly greater than your clock the attacks with man lands/angels begin.  They shift sooner than landstill because a bunch of 3 power fliers can create a greater disparity in clock speed than a 2 power man land.  Both decks need to play the control role at some point during every game to get to this point though and thats what makes them pure control decks.  You won't see trinket mage into lotus into trinket mage on turn 1 win any games without some serious control back up.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

T1 crucible, T2 Jace, T3 strip mine...Fuck the world lol

So our opponent has 2-3 lands in play, any number of moxes, and has been completely unfettered by us. We're down at least 6 of our 10 cards(if we're on the draw) to do all of this. That's nowhere near as aggressive as two Clique triggers and dead.

well fine mister I bolted your clique and countered time walk. Bounced your angel and stripped lands and ee'd moxen! I'm having fun here haha :-p

[Samoht]

T1 crucible, T2 Jace, T3 strip mine...Fuck the world lol

So our opponent has 2-3 lands in play, any number of moxes, and has been completely unfettered by us. We're down at least 6 of our 10 cards(if we're on the draw) to do all of this. That's nowhere near as aggressive as two Clique triggers and dead.

well fine mister I bolted your clique and countered time walk. Bounced your angel and stripped lands and ee'd moxen! I'm having fun here haha :-p

Haha, I'm sure I wouldn't have used the Clique to strip your hand away at all. Nope :p It's always insane to have the 10 card opener too Josh!  Also, I'll Mindbreak Trap your hand.

I disagree that Josh's Landstill deck is going to beat you with creatures (because it plays none, manlands are very different). It is probably the purest version of a control deck that the format has seen. It really can't shift roles at all. Bomberman, and even more so Blue Angels, can shift roles very fluidly.

Even with Josh's landstill the deck does shift gears at some point in the match it starts to attack with its man lands or fateseal with Jace.  I mean the deck has to win the game at some point and attacking with 2 or 3 man lands late in the game or fatesealing when your opponents in top deck mode is a potent clock.

But that's true of all slow control decks.   Even The Deck had to eventually start attacking with Serra Angels.  That doesn't make it any less of a pure control deck, from an archetype perspective.  

You are agreeing with me so I'm not sure why the but is there.  I using that same logic to show that bomberman/blue angels are also a pure control deck.  You and Tom disagreed with me on that point.

It depends how decks generally use their finishers.  Bomber man and Blue Angels don't use their creatures as finishers once they have complete control.  They shift to an Aggro mode much sooner.  That's why I don't think they are pure control decks. 

This depends on play style and the state of the game.  I won't always have complete control over the board before I start attacking with landstill either nor does blue angels.  When my clock is significantly greater than your clock the attacks with man lands/angels begin.  They shift sooner than landstill because a bunch of 3 power fliers can create a greater disparity in clock speed than a 2 power man land.  Both decks need to play the control role at some point during every game to get to this point though and thats what makes them pure control decks.  You won't see trinket mage into lotus into trinket mage on turn 1 win any games without some serious control back up.

I agree that both decks should be more aggressive than are often played, at precisely the point which you mention. I think you've proven the point yourself though - a bevy of uncounterable 3 power Flash Flyers are much better at clocking opponents than lands with 2 power. This means that the point at which one clock beats the other is much faster for the UW decks and thus make them substantially more aggressive.

[Soly]

This is hilarious coming from me .   Guys, I love the discussion my thread brought, but before it gets out of hand, remember... play nice

[Varal]

I must point out that I haven't played against the Merfolk deck before or, sadly, during the tournament but when I play tested RUG Delver I disliked them as they can't be Gushed. This deck doesn't play many lands and I found it difficult to get the 3 colors of mana at the right time. You often only have 1 or 2 lands in your hand and fetching the basic Island means you might not get your third color for quite some time. In the third game of the quarterfinals, I was stuck with only an Island and a Mox Sapphire and was facing at least 6 creatures by the time I drew a fetchland. I fear that more basic lands will make it too hard on the manabase.

I agree that Spell Pierce is not always good and sometimes a bad topdeck but I found it to be better later than turn 2 and it only starts to be bad turn 4 or later. It was still useful in some late game counter wars; 2 is a lot to pay for someone who hardcast Force of Will. Also it's blue so it's never completely dead.

I think the metagame will change now that everyone knows that creature decks aren't pet decks but strong decks. I'm sure people will be more prepared both for RUG Delver and other Fish decks but sideboard space is tight with both Dredge and Workshop needing to be kept in check.

I think you underestimate Dredge, I don't know about Erik path to top 8 but I'm sure he played against a ton of hate and still won against it. It's also one of the cheapest deck, any deck that lets more people plays vintage is a good thing when we see how hard it is to have tournaments.

[vaughnbros]

Landstill and blue angels want to do the same thing in every match up, which is why they are similar decks.  It doesn't matter whether it's killing on turn 7 or turn 30.  That part is irrelevant because either way it's still slower than every other deck in the format and needs to control in order to win.  The point from my first post to take from this is that this is a legitimate strategy.