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MTGFan
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« on: December 19, 2013, 05:35:29 pm » |
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Here's a deck I've been playing for a while now. It is based on the premise that Trinket Mage is really good in Vintage with its ability to tutor for silver bullets that target nearly every opposing archetype.
Decklist
Land (18): 9 Island 3 Ancient Tomb 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 1 Tolarian Academy
Artifact Mana (8): 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mana Crypt 1 Sol Ring
Blue Auto-Includes (9): 4 Force of Will 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Time Walk 1 Thirst for Knowledge 1 Tinker 1 Tinker Bot (I prefer Inkwell Leviathan)
The Main Reason to Play this Deck in Vintage (4): 4 Chalice of the Void
Trinket Mage Utility Package (4-5): 1 Pithing Needle 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Grafdigger's Cage 1 AEther Spellbomb (1 Relic of Progenitus) (I play this as a 61st card because it is more useful in some situations than just Cage, and it cycles)
Creatures (15): 4 Phyrexian Revoker 4 Trinket Mage 3 Illusory Angel 2 Glen-Elendra Archmage 2 Vendilion Clique
More Mana Denial (2): 2 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage 1 Tormod's Crypt 1 Gremlin Mine 4 Energy Flux (or Steel Sabotage depending on what artifact hate you prefer) 2 Sower of Temptation 3 Dismember 1 Back to Basics
Notes
- Think of this deck as a Blue version of the Death 'n Taxes deck from Legacy. It is fundamentally a pure control deck at heart whose disruption pieces (many of them) attack for the win.
- The key to this deck is the fact that Trinket Mage is able to do so much in this format. He can fetch: Pithing Needle for Jace / KeyVault / Forgemaster / etc, Cage for Oath / Dredge / YawgWill, Explosives for most permanents you need to wipe out, and Chalice to stop the majority of the broken strategies.
- Illusory Angel is an underrated win condition in a deck that plays Ancient Tomb and lots of free artifacts. It's almost as efficient as Delver of Secrets in this deck, and obviously has more power and toughness. Angel is essentially a blue Tarmogoyf (that flies) in this deck.
- Glen-Elendra Archmage is superb against everything in Vintage that is not creature-based, and vs. creature heavy decks can simply be swapped for 3 Sowers from the board. The downside is its high casting cost, but playing artifact mana and Ancient Tombs mitigates this.
- 4 Energy Flux from the side + Gremlin Mine from the side fetchable by Trinket Mage + total of 4 Dismember post-board + potential Sower (for creature-heavy Shops builds) from sb gives this deck solid game vs any Workshop strategy.
- The combination of 4 Revokers and 4 Trinket Mages fetching Pithing Needles gives this deck the ability to easily fight any activated ability strategy, i.e. Jaces and Key-Vault, not to mention stuff like Kuldotha Forgemaster, Bazaar of Baghdad, Deathrite Shaman, etc.
- If it isn't obvious already, this deck can play a strong mana-denial game via the 4 Waste / 1 Strip package alongside fetchable Explosives (for 0) and/or Chalice for 0, AND Phyrexian Revoker naming artifact mana.
Matchups
vs. Non-Oath Storm Combo (70% favored):
Maindeck Chalice with four ways to tutor for it, Force of Will, Glen-Elandra Archmage, Vendilion Clique, and a non-trivial clock. If you want to mercilessly crush Vintage combo decks, this is the deck with which to do so.
vs. Oath Combo (60% favored):
Same concepts apply as above, but Oath is harder to lock out than a deck like Storm that is almost entirely cold to Chalice. Here, you have to find Grafdigger's Cage with Trinket Mage and rely on counter-magic. Chalice @ 2 is feasible, and post-board, you have 4 Cages with 4 Tutors for them.
vs. Aggro MUD (65% favored):
G1 can be a coin-flip but the combination of powerful artifact hate (Energy Flux and Gremlin Mine) and brutally effective anti-creature tactics (Dismember and Sower) that this deck brings in post-board virtually assures a match victory.
vs. Control MUD (60% favored):
The same applies here as above, but post-board Dismember and Sower are not as effective, so G2 and G3 hinge on the availability of Energy Flux. The maindeck is strong enough to weather most MUD disruption, as this deck plays lots of mana and permanents.
vs. Landstill (55% favored):
Spot removal from their end can be a problem, depending on their build. Landstill plays more spot removal than most decks in Vintage, and has maybe the best anti-artifact sideboard in the format. Illusory Angel is key here vs. the UR Landstill build, as Jace is the only answer. Additionally, Tinker for Inkwell Leviathan is the best play in this matchup, as it is generally unanswerable. Overall, a tough control mirror in which this deck is slightly favored.
vs. Non-Standstill Blue Control (60% favored):
These are the traditional "good stuff" decks that play the best blue and black cards (alongside Mana Drain and Force), and rely on many tutors to find the best singletons, or rely on Dark Confidant to amass card advantage before assembling a Key+Vault combo or landing Jace. Typically speaking, these decks fall prey to tempo games very easily, and their many tutors are locked out by Chalice. The mana denial that this deck packs is highly effective vs. these decks and their situational answers are less effective vs. this deck than Landstill's are. Additionally, Faerie Stompy has many answers to this deck's few win conditions.
vs. Dredge (60% favored):
This deck has a Trinket Mage answer for the graveyard in G1, but in G2 and G3 you can make this as easy as you want it to be by adjusting the amount of extra Tormod's Crypt you play in the sideboard. As it is, in G2 and G3 you have 4 Cages, 1 Needle, 1 Crypt and 4 Tutors for all of this, and counter-magic to stop their answers to your answers.
vs. Delver (45% favored):
Delver is a arguably a better tempo deck than Faerie Stompy, and can often outrace it if you try to play the aggressive role. The answer is to control them with Chalice @ 1 and use sideboard creature answers to gain an edge in G2 and G3. However, their ability to apply pressure makes this rough, and if you don't land Chalice @ 1 this deck will struggle to win consistently vs. Delver strategies. But the overwhelming power of Chalice @ 1 if resolved and if it stays in play means that these matches will often fluctuate from blow-out to blow-out on both sides.
vs. Bomberman and other Trinket Mage strategies (40% favored):
Bomberman is maybe the worst or second worst matchup this deck has, depending on how much artifact hate they are playing. Initially, you would think that playing Chalices helps shut down Auriok Salvagers combo, and it does, but Bomberman can win with creatures *or* combo, which makes it tough to attack from a single angle. Glen-Elendra Archmage might be dead vs. a creature beatdown, and stuff like Dismember and Sower from the board might be dead if they are playing out other combos. If they are playing Hurykl's Recall, it can be devastating to this deck's strategy because unless you have Force of Will or Archmage in play, an EOT Hurykl's will bounce all chalices and let them go off in their turn. Depending on the list, this can vary from a really bad matchup to slightly less than even.
vs. Merfolk (35% favored):
Merfolk is this deck's worst matchup (of the major decks - I'm not counting weird fringe stuff with maindeck Ingot Chewers and Liquimetal Coating). The discussion is not even necessary as the matchup on paper is exactly how it usually plays out. Needless to say, a faster clock with Island-walking backed up by disruption is not what this deck wants to face. Potential silver bullet answer: Llawan, Cephalid Empress. But do you want to take up valuable sideboard space for one matchup? Probably not. You are favored vs. nearly everything in the format but a few aggro strategies, so this is an acceptable concession to make.
vs. Other Non-Delver, Non-Merfolk, Non-Bomberman Creature-Based Decks (65% favored):
Other creature strategies simply don't have the speed or power of Merfolk and Delver, or the versatility of Bomberman. Other creature strategies almost uniformly fold to Engineered Explosives, Illusory Angel, Tinker, Dismember, and Sower accompanied by better mana and more card advantage.
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« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 09:03:24 pm by MTGFan »
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A.-1.
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Posts: 828
Team RST
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 05:43:55 pm » |
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If you want to go more of the mana-denial plan, you could try Back to Basics.
In general, I'd probably cut the Angels for TNN and leave Clique in - maybe even run Riptide Lab. I'd also try to find room for some 2cc counters like Mana Leak.
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Please make an attempt to use proper grammar.
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fsecco
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 11:43:39 pm » |
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Why no Mystical Tutor? And why no Mana Drain? i think 2-3 Drains and a Tutor would fit nicelly here in place of Glen Elendra.
Also, how do you feel about CotV? Playing it for 1 or 2 seems to hurt you too. D you play 4 only for mana denial? How does that work on the draw?
Edit: Oh, and maybe you should consider Aether Spellbomb on the Trinket package (to deal with Blightsteel)
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MTGFan
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 11:23:08 am » |
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If you want to go more of the mana-denial plan, you could try Back to Basics.
In general, I'd probably cut the Angels for TNN and leave Clique in - maybe even run Riptide Lab. I'd also try to find room for some 2cc counters like Mana Leak.
The thing about TNN and Clique is that the mana cost becomes burdensome if you play Ancient Tombs. 2U is so much easier to cast in this deck than 1UU. That's why I would even consider Serendib Efreet over Clique in its spot, but disruption is key. I've been kind of disappointed with TNN in Vintage. It seems as if in most games you want the extra power (4/4 vs 3/1) of something like Illusory Angel over the invincibility of TNN, because Angel is already immune to a single Lightning Bolt, so it usually lives unless opponent plays Jace or Abrupt Decay.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 11:26:28 am » |
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Why no Mystical Tutor? And why no Mana Drain? i think 2-3 Drains and a Tutor would fit nicelly here in place of Glen Elendra.
Mana Drain was something I tested but in a Tomb deck UU isn't as easy to come by. And I think this deck works better with the acceleration provided by Tomb (powering out easy Trinket Mages, Revokers, Angels) rather than the ability to trade 1-for-1 via a counterspell. I'd be hesitant to cut Archmage because against most non-creature decks, when it resolves, it's practically game-over. Two uncounterable Negates that can also attack... Also, how do you feel about CotV? Playing it for 1 or 2 seems to hurt you too. D you play 4 only for mana denial? How does that work on the draw?
Playing it for 1 only stops 1 Recall, 1 Sol Ring, 1 Cage, and 1 Needle. Not that big of a deal. Playing it for 2 is pretty rare except vs Oath. Edit: Oh, and maybe you should consider Aether Spellbomb on the Trinket package (to deal with Blightsteel)
That's a good suggestion. It's hard to deal with Tinker when it resolves, and you can't hedge against it easily just with Grafdigger's Cage because then they can assemble Vault-Key.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2013, 01:08:29 pm » |
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Why no Mystical Tutor? And why no Mana Drain? i think 2-3 Drains and a Tutor would fit nicelly here in place of Glen Elendra.
Mana Drain was something I tested but in a Tomb deck UU isn't as easy to come by. And I think this deck works better with the acceleration provided by Tomb (powering out easy Trinket Mages, Revokers, Angels) rather than the ability to trade 1-for-1 via a counterspell. I wonder if tomb is even worth it. Since your curve tops out mainly at 3, if you have even a single piece of artifact mana tomb becomes unnecessary. Cavern of souls seems like a big card for this deck allowing you play chalices more aggresively, and pushing your super powerful creatures, like glen elandra, through opposing counter magic. If you stick with this same mana base and UU is difficult to get clique and true-name should be reconsidered. No sensei's top or fetches seems like a mistake while running trinket mage since its the main trinket mage target against half the field. Top is such a great card with mage since it turns him into a serious card advantage engine. Without top or other card advantage, tinker-bot seem like rather poor card choices. You are just as likely to draw the bot as you are the tinker. Is the added variance really worth it? With the beatdown plan such a strong part of this deck's strategy I would also consider adding a tutorable equipment. Bonesplitter, Skullclamp, Sigil of Distinction, all come to mind as options. The sideboard needs some work. You should have a second EE for shops+creature decks, its pretty much your only tutor target in those match ups. Energy flux is kind of a nonbo when you are playing 14 main deck artifacts, and even more in the board. Is gremlin mine really good enough? The only thing it kills that trinket mage doesn't trade with is lodestone. Overall its a very cool deck that brings back memories of ones from long long ago.
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Oath of Happy
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2013, 05:27:01 pm » |
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I would add Mox Sapphire, Brainstorm, Thirst for Knowledge, and fetchlands.
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Protoaddict
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2013, 10:46:49 pm » |
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Repeal seems like a good card for this list. - It can cantrip if you need it quickly off a mox - It can help you play spels to enable angels cheap - It can bounce an opponents moxen before you chalice for 0
May be worth a shot. Also if your running all these trinket mages a singleton Seat of the synod could be a good target for mana fixing.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2013, 12:38:51 pm » |
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I would add Mox Sapphire, Brainstorm, Thirst for Knowledge, and fetchlands.
Haha. When I was copy pasting the list I somehow left off Sapphire, which is obviously in the list. Thirst for Knowledge seems like a really good thing to test. I'm opposed to fetchlands just to make a singleton Brainstorm work, though. The life loss really adds up with Ancient Tomb and Dismember, and I feel as if 4 Ancient Tomb, 2 Dismember MD / 2 Dismember SB offer alot more to the pilot of this deck than a singleton Brainstorm does., especially in an aggro list full of mostly redundant threats. And obviously, in a mono colored deck fetchlands offer nothing outside of Brainstorm enablers. I'm not a big proponent of the marginal "deck thinning" effect either, or its benefit vs. downside of life-loss of fetches.
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Protoaddict
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« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2013, 03:21:06 pm » |
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Well if not brainstorm (and i agree with you, not worth adding fetchs) Ponder could also be a candidate as it needs no extra help.
You also have enough artifacts that you may want to consider mox opal.
I almost think you have too many threats right now though. I think you may find yourself having games where some of your stuff comes up just a bit too often. I would think you probably only need to hit angel once in tandem with all that other stuff you have in the list so that 4 may be too much.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2014, 06:19:36 pm » |
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Updated to reflect latest list.
I feel as if this deck-list is almost perfectly set at this point. The 3/3 split of Dismember/Sower (alongside maindeck Explosives and Spellbomb) in the sideboard is enough to handle most aggro decks, and the main deck now has little to nothing that is dead vs. non-creature decks.
This has been a very high performing deck for me in my (albeit limited, as I'm more of a Modern/Legacy player than a Vintage player) testing vs several archetypes: Landstill, Delver, Shops (both traditional and Genesis Chamber), Dredge, Oath, etc.
In the hands of a skilled pilot, this deck has the capability to beat anything the format can throw at it, and often with ease.
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« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 06:27:18 pm by MTGFan »
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serracollector
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 09:19:37 pm » |
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I agree that some number of cavern of souls should be in there since you only run the four force of wills as counters. you pretty much use glen as your other counters so make it uncounterable. esperzoa is another alternative beat stick but can be bolted and prone to artifact hate. one seat of synod is interesting as well.
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serracollector
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2014, 09:22:49 pm » |
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Merge these please doing this from my phone. i also believe top should be somewhere in that seventy five. and why not try key vault yourself? with tinker and four mage and key plus top is a great draw engine. my advice. good luck i like it.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2014, 07:56:10 am » |
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Singleton Seat of the Synod is not bad as a mana target when you, say, already have chalice @ 0 out... but it does give the opponent another Wasteland target.
I am strongly opposed to Sensei's Divining Top in any deck that doesn't also play Counterbalance. Sensei's Divining Top is most definitely *not* a draw engine of any kind. It produces card disadvantage - -1 CA for the Top itself, and then it merely filters and doesn't draw until you replace the -1 CA with the tap ability, and then it just breaks even.
I would love to play some Cavern of Souls but then you run into the problem where you can't activate Glen Elandra Archmage, or play a Time Walk, or play an Ancestrall Recall, because Caverns don't produce blue. That having been said, I think playing 2 Caverns gives this deck an added element of power. +2 Cavern of Souls, -2 Island for the time being... Uncounterability for 9 creatures (if naming Wizard) in the deck is huge.
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« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 09:54:29 am by MTGFan »
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2014, 11:30:37 am » |
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I find myself running SDT less and less, but I think you may underestimate its utility. It's not a draw engine or CA, but it is like DT or vamp in that it gets you to your bombs and answers faster. It is also excellent with Bob and can provide virtual CA. Example, it is mid game and you have 5 mana in play. Your largest spell costs 4. Your next two draws are lands and the 3rd card deep is an oath, tinker, critter, or some substantial threat (or maybe a decay to deal with a resolved threat). You just dodged 2 dead draws to get business because of SDT in that case. You avoided a virtual -2 CA. With ample shufflers, top only gets better, and when you have misstep, fow, or other free or cheap counters, it acts as a virtual counterspell that you can bury to avoid duress until you need it. Lastly, it also breaks jacelock where you are being fatesealed to death.
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"I know to whom I owe the most loyalty, and I see him in the mirror every day." - Starke of Rath
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MTGFan
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2014, 12:46:03 pm » |
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I find myself running SDT less and less, but I think you may underestimate its utility. It's not a draw engine or CA, but it is like DT or vamp in that it gets you to your bombs and answers faster. It is also excellent with Bob and can provide virtual CA. Example, it is mid game and you have 5 mana in play. Your largest spell costs 4. Your next two draws are lands and the 3rd card deep is an oath, tinker, critter, or some substantial threat (or maybe a decay to deal with a resolved threat). You just dodged 2 dead draws to get business because of SDT in that case. You avoided a virtual -2 CA. With ample shufflers, top only gets better, and when you have misstep, fow, or other free or cheap counters, it acts as a virtual counterspell that you can bury to avoid duress until you need it. Lastly, it also breaks jacelock where you are being fatesealed to death.
Which is fine in decks that plays lots of 1-of bombs. This deck is more of an aggro-control deck that plays mostly redundant threats and only a few of the singletons that every blue deck is predisposed to play in Vintage - Walk, Tinker, Recall, Thirst - and of these, only Tinker or Recall are bombs in a vacuum. Based on my extensive experience in both Legacy and Vintage I've come to the conclusion that SDT is only valuable in a deck that can build synergy with the Top with something else - i.e. Counterbalance, or Terminus, or Dark Confidant. On its own, in a deck with mostly redundant threats, it is basically just a waste of tempo.
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serracollector
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2014, 04:49:00 pm » |
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That is why i asked about playing time vault and voltaic key. key works with top to provide actual draws for two mana every turn. both can be fetched by trinket mage. and you have tinker and ancestral to help find the time vault.
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Ten-Ten
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Posts: 473
Shalom Aleichem
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« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2014, 11:42:42 am » |
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I find myself running SDT less and less, but I think you may underestimate its utility. It's not a draw engine or CA, but it is like DT or vamp in that it gets you to your bombs and answers faster. It is also excellent with Bob and can provide virtual CA. Example, it is mid game and you have 5 mana in play. Your largest spell costs 4. Your next two draws are lands and the 3rd card deep is an oath, tinker, critter, or some substantial threat (or maybe a decay to deal with a resolved threat). You just dodged 2 dead draws to get business because of SDT in that case. You avoided a virtual -2 CA. With ample shufflers, top only gets better, and when you have misstep, fow, or other free or cheap counters, it acts as a virtual counterspell that you can bury to avoid duress until you need it. Lastly, it also breaks jacelock where you are being fatesealed to death.
Which is fine in decks that plays lots of 1-of bombs. This deck is more of an aggro-control deck that plays mostly redundant threats and only a few of the singletons that every blue deck is predisposed to play in Vintage - Walk, Tinker, Recall, Thirst - and of these, only Tinker or Recall are bombs in a vacuum. Based on my extensive experience in both Legacy and Vintage I've come to the conclusion that SDT is only valuable in a deck that can build synergy with the Top with something else - i.e. Counterbalance, or Terminus, or Dark Confidant. On its own, in a deck with mostly redundant threats, it is basically just a waste of tempo. In an earlier post by MTGfan: I feel as if this deck-list is almost perfectly set at this point. The 3/3 split of Dismember/Sower (alongside maindeck Explosives and Spellbomb) in the sideboard is enough to handle most aggro decks, and the main deck now has little to nothing that is dead vs. non-creature decks.
This has been a very high performing deck for me in my (albeit limited, as I'm more of a Modern/Legacy player than a Vintage player) testing vs several archetypes: Landstill, Delver, Shops (both traditional and Genesis Chamber), Dredge, Oath, etc.
In the hands of a skilled pilot, this deck has the capability to beat anything the format can throw at it, and often with ease. When you talk about SdT, looks like your Only experience is in Legacy. You say it does not belong in this deck but with so many dead draws mid to late game, I find it difficult to believe. I had put together a deck similar to yours back before Zendikar was released. It ran Esperzoa, Chalice and such but no trinket mage. Which, by the way, is a great idea on your part. Instead I ran Etherium sculptor. Post Zendikar, I added Loadstone golem. Havent picked up the project since. So, as much as I would like to see this brew succeed, I do not think it can stand up to the major players of the Vintage format. Also, what does your meta look like? What are the stats against combo, shops, and control?..at least so far.
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Colossians 2:2,3 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, both of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2014, 04:25:11 pm » |
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I find myself running SDT less and less, but I think you may underestimate its utility. It's not a draw engine or CA, but it is like DT or vamp in that it gets you to your bombs and answers faster. It is also excellent with Bob and can provide virtual CA. Example, it is mid game and you have 5 mana in play. Your largest spell costs 4. Your next two draws are lands and the 3rd card deep is an oath, tinker, critter, or some substantial threat (or maybe a decay to deal with a resolved threat). You just dodged 2 dead draws to get business because of SDT in that case. You avoided a virtual -2 CA. With ample shufflers, top only gets better, and when you have misstep, fow, or other free or cheap counters, it acts as a virtual counterspell that you can bury to avoid duress until you need it. Lastly, it also breaks jacelock where you are being fatesealed to death.
Which is fine in decks that plays lots of 1-of bombs. This deck is more of an aggro-control deck that plays mostly redundant threats and only a few of the singletons that every blue deck is predisposed to play in Vintage - Walk, Tinker, Recall, Thirst - and of these, only Tinker or Recall are bombs in a vacuum. Based on my extensive experience in both Legacy and Vintage I've come to the conclusion that SDT is only valuable in a deck that can build synergy with the Top with something else - i.e. Counterbalance, or Terminus, or Dark Confidant. On its own, in a deck with mostly redundant threats, it is basically just a waste of tempo. In an earlier post by MTGfan: I feel as if this deck-list is almost perfectly set at this point. The 3/3 split of Dismember/Sower (alongside maindeck Explosives and Spellbomb) in the sideboard is enough to handle most aggro decks, and the main deck now has little to nothing that is dead vs. non-creature decks.
This has been a very high performing deck for me in my (albeit limited, as I'm more of a Modern/Legacy player than a Vintage player) testing vs several archetypes: Landstill, Delver, Shops (both traditional and Genesis Chamber), Dredge, Oath, etc.
In the hands of a skilled pilot, this deck has the capability to beat anything the format can throw at it, and often with ease. When you talk about SdT, looks like your Only experience is in Legacy. You say it does not belong in this deck but with so many dead draws mid to late game, I find it difficult to believe. I had put together a deck similar to yours back before Zendikar was released. It ran Esperzoa, Chalice and such but no trinket mage. Which, by the way, is a great idea on your part. Instead I ran Etherium sculptor. Post Zendikar, I added Loadstone golem. Havent picked up the project since. So, as much as I would like to see this brew succeed, I do not think it can stand up to the major players of the Vintage format. Also, what does your meta look like? What are the stats against combo, shops, and control?..at least so far. I have extensive Vintage experience on Cockatrice, but not in person. I also am a very good judge of card quality. Simply put, SDT is only good if it has synergy with some other kind of strategy. In Vintage, the only reason to run it is if you play a deck loaded with bombs, which this deck is not. Top increases card quality at the expense of card advantage. It is -1 CA to put into play and does nothing on its own except filter the top 3 cards of your library. In this respect, it is virtually useless if your deck is built upon mostly 4-of redundant threats that in and of themselves do not represent bomb plays. Also, I have tested this deck pretty heavily against nearly every Vintage archetype and based on testing against competent opponents, this deck is only unfavored against faster aggro-control decks (RUG Delver and Merfolk). It basically has no problem dispatching Shop decks, Dredge decks, Oath decks, Confidant/Jace control decks, Storm combo decks and the other major players in Vintage.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2014, 05:19:33 pm » |
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I have extensive Vintage experience on Cockatrice, but not in person. I also am a very good judge of card quality. Simply put, SDT is only good if it has synergy with some other kind of strategy. In Vintage, the only reason to run it is if you play a deck loaded with bombs, which this deck is not. Top increases card quality at the expense of card advantage. It is -1 CA to put into play and does nothing on its own except filter the top 3 cards of your library. In this respect, it is virtually useless if your deck is built upon mostly 4-of redundant threats that in and of themselves do not represent bomb plays.
This analysis of Sensei's top is completely incorrect. Top is not -1 CA since it can tap to draw a card and replace itself. If you have a fetch you have the option of getting rid of it permanently. Top is actually mana for card quality. The most powerful deck to abuse it, bomberman, actually runs a large majority of 4-ofs including drain, jace, trinket mage, and other cards. It doesn't need bombs to be effective it just needs shuffle effects. Also, I have tested this deck pretty heavily against nearly every Vintage archetype and based on testing against competent opponents, this deck is only unfavored against faster aggro-control decks (RUG Delver and Merfolk). It basically has no problem dispatching Shop decks, Dredge decks, Oath decks, Confidant/Jace control decks, Storm combo decks and the other major players in Vintage.
If you really can beat all of those decks easily I don't see why you would be considering changing your deck list at all. RUG delver and merfolk don't take up that much of the metagame.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2014, 05:47:26 pm » |
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I have extensive Vintage experience on Cockatrice, but not in person. I also am a very good judge of card quality. Simply put, SDT is only good if it has synergy with some other kind of strategy. In Vintage, the only reason to run it is if you play a deck loaded with bombs, which this deck is not. Top increases card quality at the expense of card advantage. It is -1 CA to put into play and does nothing on its own except filter the top 3 cards of your library. In this respect, it is virtually useless if your deck is built upon mostly 4-of redundant threats that in and of themselves do not represent bomb plays.
This analysis of Sensei's top is completely incorrect. Top is not -1 CA since it can tap to draw a card and replace itself. If you have a fetch you have the option of getting rid of it permanently. Top is actually mana for card quality. The most powerful deck to abuse it, bomberman, actually runs a large majority of 4-ofs including drain, jace, trinket mage, and other cards. It doesn't need bombs to be effective it just needs shuffle effects. Operative word: "can". When you pay 1 mana for SDT and put it into play, it is -1 CA. When you tap SDT that is in play and then put it on top of your library, it is +1 CA so you are then back to +0 CA. An active top is negative card advantage in the sense that it has zero board presence for you. A creature you play may be -1 CA from your hand but +1 card advantage on your board, for example, but Top has no board presence so it is card disadvantage as its only reason for existence is to filter your library and provide card quality. I feel as if any deck in Vintage like Bomberman that runs SDT as a tutor target is an inefficient build of the deck and would be better if it cut SDT for something with more impact, like, say, a Pithing Needle tutor target or something.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2014, 06:02:14 pm » |
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you are then back to +0 CA.
Yes 0 CA, aka not card disadvantage. I feel as if any deck in Vintage like Bomberman that runs SDT as a tutor target is an inefficient build of the deck and would be better if it cut SDT for something with more impact, like, say, a Pithing Needle tutor target or something.
Its amazing how many tournaments such inefficient bomberman decks can win. Statements like this will prevent people from taking you seriously.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2014, 06:29:22 pm » |
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you are then back to +0 CA.
Yes 0 CA, aka not card disadvantage. You are only at 0 CA when the Top is sitting on the top of your library doing absolutely nothing. When it is in play - i.e. the reason you even have it in your library - it is card disadvantage. I feel as if any deck in Vintage like Bomberman that runs SDT as a tutor target is an inefficient build of the deck and would be better if it cut SDT for something with more impact, like, say, a Pithing Needle tutor target or something.
Its amazing how many tournaments such inefficient bomberman decks can win. Statements like this will prevent people from taking you seriously. If you actually broke down those matches, I'm sure you'd find that these decks are probably winning in spite of the Top and not because of it. And even if a top activation helped find a card that won a game or two, you have to remember, again, that Bomberman is at heart a COMBO deck. SDT is somewhat useful searching for combo pieces but completely terrible in a non-combo deck unless paired with something like Counterbalance or Terminus.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2014, 06:54:14 pm » |
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If you actually broke down those matches, I'm sure you'd find that these decks are probably winning in spite of the Top and not because of it. And even if a top activation helped find a card that won a game or two, you have to remember, again, that Bomberman is at heart a COMBO deck. SDT is somewhat useful searching for combo pieces but completely terrible in a non-combo deck unless paired with something like Counterbalance or Terminus.
As someone who has played Bomberman in quite a few tournaments to good results, Bomberman is not a combo deck and Sensei's Divining Top is one of the most powerful cards in the deck. The list I am familiar with is the one that Justin Kohler recently used to take down two of Top Deck Games 1K tournaments. His list runs 2 Sensei's Divining Tops in the main, cutting Brainstorm from a deck with 6 fetch lands and 4 Trinket Mages for shuffle effects. The reason Top is so powerful is that Bomberman is primarily a control deck, with Jace as the typical "win condition". Many of the games play out with the Bomberman pilot getting incremental advantage from Trinket Mage, V. Clique, and Top, then sticking a Jace and taking over the game. The deck is normally not fast and Auriok Salvagers is not required to win many of the games. Some decks have even cut Salvagers from their list -- see Blue Angels or Josh Potucek's UR Wizards list. That said, the OP's deck lacks fetch lands and does not seem to be designed to grind out games. Top would be pretty suboptimal in this list. Have you considered Jitte in the deck as a colorless mana sink, way to recoup life lost from Tombs, and trump in the creature match ups?
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"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"
"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"
"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"
Random conversations...
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Ten-Ten
Basic User
 
Posts: 473
Shalom Aleichem
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2014, 07:26:07 pm » |
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Cant help but just want to pick up either Vintage Champ's Merfolk or JKohler's Bomberman instead of this deck. They both accomplish what this deck tries to do but much better.
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Colossians 2:2,3 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, both of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
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Protoaddict
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2014, 09:33:50 pm » |
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Top is never really -1CA. I think an argument could be made to say it is in some cases -VCA, as there are some matchups where it can be less than stellar, but that can be said of many cards.
Lets also not forget that it adds to your Academy Mana, can be sac'ed for Tinker, Can be tapped as a permanent for Tangle wire, turn on metalcraft for opal, and counts for affinity (if that comes to the forefront). If it eats a misstep it was a 1 for 1.
So if you want to make the argument that in some cases its less than great, that's a fine argument. That is also what the sideboard is for.
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WhiteLotus
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2014, 10:33:09 pm » |
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For a deck to be playable in vintage it must a) have a strong gameplan and limit opponent's interaction b) interact with the opponent and limit their gameplan. Your list looks like it does none of those things very well.
You claim that your deck "basically has no problem dispatching Shop decks, Dredge decks, Oath decks, Confidant/Jace control decks, Storm combo decks and the other major players in Vintage." but how does it do that with only 4 fows and inferior win conditions ? Every aggro based strategy in the format is usually a deck that impedes broken decks ability to win very strongly (Bug Fish, hatebears) or uses interaction to create tempo while they use a fast clock to win (delver, merfolk)
Also SDT has a lot of synergies in vintage such as fetchlands, dark confidant, repeal, topdeck tutors, voltaic key, cheap counterspells, tinker, Thirst for knowledge, tolarian academy,... There even used to be a combo deck that could draw it's entire library and generate infinite storm with it.
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"Your first mistake was thinking I would let you live long enough to make a second."
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brianpk80
2015 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
   
Posts: 1333
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2014, 11:23:57 pm » |
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I've played against people running this deck before and it's not bad. While the claims of "[easily dispatching Top decks]" could be stated a bit less sensationally, I'm inclined to believe it can put up a respectable fight. The reasoning is that Chalice of the Void is the most unfair lock piece in the game aside from Trinisphere, singlehandedly winning games on the play @ 0, crippling an opponent on the draw @ 1, and forcing very difficult mulligan decisions. It's bad enough in Shops but the deck here effectively has 8 of them which is the core strength. It's obnoxious trying to play against a Shops-esque deck with 8 Chalices whose creatures don't all bounce to Hurkyl's. The Glen Elendras, Illusory Angels, and Tinker-bot are iffy and could eventually be calibrated in several different directions but Trinket Mage -> Chalice of the Void/Wasteland/Revoker is a strong foundation. I would test a black splash for Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas.
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"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards. And then the clouds divide... something is revealed in the skies."
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Ten-Ten
Basic User
 
Posts: 473
Shalom Aleichem
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« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2014, 03:42:02 am » |
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Here is an example of a black splash, check out Daniel Proulx's "Blue Danube Waltz": http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45054.0;wap2
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Colossians 2:2,3 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, both of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2014, 08:34:59 pm » |
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Cant help but just want to pick up either Vintage Champ's Merfolk or JKohler's Bomberman instead of this deck. They both accomplish what this deck tries to do but much better.
This deck is most similar to Merfolk in that it wants to play disruption and attack with creatures to deplete the opponent's life total. It plays Force of Will, Wastelands, and Strip Mine just like the Merfolk deck. However, instead of soft counters like Mental Misstep and Daze, this deck plays Chalice of the Void as its early disruption. Chalice has its pluses and minuses, but in most cases it is superior to Misstep/Daze. It can lock the opponent out of the game whereas Misstep and Daze are highly conditional, easily played-around, and generally dead against some decks and many situations. And while the Merfolk deck plays Null Rod as extra disruption, this deck plays more artifact mana, which makes it faster than the Merfolk deck, and hopes to replicate some of that disruption with access to Chalice. Instead of 1/1 and 2/2 Merfolk that only become bigger when other Merfolk are cast and stay in play, this deck plays stand-alone creatures that have more individual value than any single Merfolk (aside from maybe TNN). Illusory Angel is a 4/4 flier that comes out faster in this deck than any Merfolk enters play in that deck. Trinket Mage is 2/2 body with supreme utility. Glen Elandra Archmage is a "win now" button vs. non-creature decks. Phyrexian Revoker can shut down an opponent's win condition on its own. Vendillion Clique can pluck the best card from your opponent's hand. And Tinker is just Tinker, one of the most broken creatures in Vintage, which Merfolk can't play. Etc. No single Merfolk (except TNN, which is mostly just a mediocre beatstick - worse than Illusory Angel - against most non-creature decks) can come close to the power of any individual creature in this deck. So in alot of ways, Merfolk and Faerie Stompy are similar in philosophy and execution, but due to some critical differences described above, I feel that Faerie Stompy actually plays the "aggro-control" role more effectively in most situations.
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