Kiora, the Crashing Wave

[gkraigher]

This is an interesting card that could be played in decks like RUG Delver, and is especially good in the mirror match.  While its not as good at stopping threats as Jace, it does provide answers to the board while growing.  It stops Blightsteel in its tracks and partially negates Griselbrand.  

Playing an additional land is a good effect in gush decks.  

It's probably not good, but at least we finally have a green/blue walker.  The last one left is green/white.  

[Demagoguery]

I'm pretty mixed on this girl, she's actually not that bad seeing as she does stop Blightsteel like you said. Not only that but she does do an ok job of providing you some serious card and board advantage with a couple free explores, maybe something in the form of Landstill that not only plays extra lands but can basically use that extra land drop to put out more damage or disrupt mana more?

She's also pretty good against all of the creature decks that are becoming popular, especially when you consider that even though their guy doesn't take damage, you can still swing in with your x/1 dudes into their Goyf that can't swing back. She also stops man lands.

The low loyalty count is pretty brutal though, since Bolt is good, so using her plus ability doesn't stop that. Though Mental Misstep does, and it's not bad against the Delver lists that are becoming big now.

Her ultimate pretty much says you win the game, but it takes 4 turns to activate, though you do get the token on the fourth turn.

As a whole I don't think she's good enough, but I'm sure someone will place running her at some point. I really wish she had more loyalty or was cheaper.

[JarofFortune]

This is an interesting card that could be played in decks like RUG Delver, and is especially good in the mirror match.  While its not as good at stopping threats as Jace, it does provide answers to board while growing.  It stops Blightsteel in its tracks and partially negates Griselbrand.  

Playing an additional land is a good effect in

 While this card is very cute, and I love the idea of some sort of turboland gush deck with this card and horn of greed, I don't think this will really make the cut in the current metagame. It will probably appear in one or two top eights, there aren't really any decks that this card fits into right now. Rug delver doesn't want to play cards that cost 4. In Gush combo decks, the most obvious home for this card, it is usually better to just tutor for fastbond. In addition, Jace(The obvious staple to compare this card to) appears to be the much better 4 mana walker. While both walkers are very similar in that they can immediately protect themselves or draw draw cards, jace can brainstorm indefinitely, and with 3 real abilities is much more versatile, and resilient to lightning bolt. The tactic of creature decks just jamming as many threats as possible is also very effective due to the low loyalty. Even if Rug could run it and get to four mana reliably, it is because of this reason that it would not break the mirror open. In everything else that runs Jace, Jace will be better for the same reasons, not to mention that Kiora has a green in its cost.

 Maybe I'm completely wrong and this will see some play, I just don't think that this card solves any of the problems of decks in the current metagame. I'd be very happy if someone uses it successfully and proves me wrong.

[Protoaddict]

It's not good enough. I know people want it to be good and it might have a place in modern or as a 1 of in some legacy super friends deck, and certainly standard will enjoy it (or maybe not considering standard is so mono color right now,) but it does not do nearly enough.

- 2 Loyalty with no +2 ability. It gets bolted and dies regardless of what you do the turn it hits play.
- 4 mana is the top end of what you would pay for a walker, and looking at the other 4 mana walkers I don't see this being worth the effort. 4 mana gets you Jace TMS, Garruk (the first 2), Ral Zerek, etc. All of them do much more than this and have more loyalty.
- The +1 ability does not do enough. It can stop a blightsteel if they didn't timewalk and kill you after playing it, but it also makes it a blocker that cannot be killed by your blightsteel.
- Playing an extra land each turn is not so great in vintage. Green already has fastbond and explore if it wanted that ability. To play her in the first place you needed like 4 mana so how many extra land drops will you be hitting.
- Being 2 colors isnt really an advantage unless you have green pitch cards or are playing some sort of devotion strategy, but this is vintage and you are not doing that.
- The ultimate will win you the game, but in a super slow and laborious fashion. Most other walkers will win you faster.

[boggyb]

Well, the -1 is pretty nuts with Gush -- +3 cards and +2 mana. A mini-gushbond, for zero life. Jacestorming post-Gush seems about as good, though, as does getting a Talrand token. Then you'd have a Jace or a Talrand. I don't see how you can justify ramping to this card over either of those two.

The +1 seems bad because it relies on your opponent to be good -- i.e. it's good if they have one thing out you want to stop (and superb if that thing is Griselbrand or Blightsteel), so-so if they have more than one thing, and bad if they have nothing out. Relying on your opponent to provide value is in general bad. And I don't know why it says "opponent" in there. Might've been nice to have had the option to protect your own dude.

The -5 is very, very good, but the +1 is so sloppy that I don't see how it's worth it. Takes the same number of activations to get there as it does with Liliana, and her +1 is a heckuva lot better, and she costs less.

Overall seems worse than Ral-Zarek, who has seen only cute/fringe play. Frown.

[boggyb]

The art is totally rad, though. She looks like a Merfolk but provides no synergy with that strategy. Very odd -- her picture makes her look like she should be a like UU1 Merfolk lord planeswalker, like Nissa Revane for fish.

[Samoht]

Costs 4 mana, split colors, isn't Jace, has no starting loyalty, and does almost nothing immediately. Moving right along.

[Smmenen]

Unreal with Lotus Cobra

[Commandant]

Unreal with Lotus Cobra

It's unreal people play Lotus Cobra in Vintage.

[Samoht]

Unreal with Lotus Cobra

It's unreal people play Lotus Cobra in Vintage.

It's better than Dark Ritual in a Gush Storm deck.

[Commandant]

Unreal with Lotus Cobra

It's unreal people play Lotus Cobra in Vintage.

It's better than Dark Ritual in a Gush Storm deck.

True. If only Gush had relevance outside of 3/2 flying dudes.

Still waiting for Young Pyromancer to take over the format.

[vaughnbros]

While fog on a permanent and explore are fairly relevant abilities.  Costing 4 mana, a starting loyalty of only 2, and a bad ultimate make the card a pretty inefficient option.

[gkraigher]

The lightning bolt argument is the reason why jace consistently wins out over all the other walkers.  If this card was a +2, -1, -7 it would be a lot better than what it is.  I wish wizards would take that more into consideration when making these planewalkers.  

[Samoht]

Unreal with Lotus Cobra

It's unreal people play Lotus Cobra in Vintage.

It's better than Dark Ritual in a Gush Storm deck.

True. If only Gush had relevance outside of 3/2 flying dudes.

Still waiting for Young Pyromancer to take over the format.

Vito t16'd w/ Cobra Gush

[MaximumCDawg]

Gawd, what is with you folks and making threads out of unplayable cards lately?  We're on some sort of bender in the Theros block it seems.

There is no need for this.
-Godder

Alright, so Kiora.  For four mana, you can fog a Blightsteel Collosus.  For that same four mana, you would be removing him with Jace.  For four mana, you accelerate your mana and draw a card.  For the same four mana, you would be Brainstorming with Jace.  You wouldn't be dropping an extra land, but you don't need an extra land, because you have four mana and you have nothing you're accelerating into.  The ultimate wins the game three turns after it resolves.

Whatever interest Kiora might have in a vacuum, she's competing with Jace who does everything she does better.  She's not playable.  

[Protoaddict]

Gawd, what is with you folks and making threads out of unplayable cards lately?  We're on some sort of bender in the Theros block it seems.

There is no need for this.
-Godder

Alright, so Kiora.  For four mana, you can fog a Blightsteel Collosus.  For that same four mana, you would be removing him with Jace.  For four mana, you accelerate your mana and draw a card.  For the same four mana, you would be Brainstorming with Jace.  You wouldn't be dropping an extra land, but you don't need an extra land, because you have four mana and you have nothing you're accelerating into.  The ultimate wins the game three turns after it resolves.

Whatever interest Kiora might have in a vacuum, she's competing with Jace who does everything she does better.  She's not playable.  

Got to agree. Every 4 mana planeswalker that sees play and even some who don't provide more compelling reasons to play them.

Garruk 1 - Can win without going ultimate on the back of token generation, plus provides acceleration. Higher starting loyalty and cheaper ultimate. Only one colored mana required. Can be faster than Jace but more of an aggro or combo card than control
Tezzeret 2 - Card advantage, multi faceted win conditions, arguably more versatile. Will sometimes get the nod over jace because he can win in one turn as opposed to multiple in artifact heavy lists.
Ral zerek - Protection, removal, acceleration, instant win with resolved time vault
Elspeth 1 - Protection, token generation, ability to go over the top with creatures.


The list goes on. While I realize she is new and her ability combinations are new, they do not seem to be new in a way that vintage needed them and not powerful enough to spawn her own lists like Cavern of souls or Jace have been in recent times.

[A.-1.]

Her ultimate pretty much says you win the game, but it takes 4 turns to activate, though you do get the token on the fourth turn.

The ultimate wins the game three turns after it resolves.

I don't see how a vanilla 9/9 wins the game against any relevant deck in Vintage even if you do get a steady stream of them. Am I missing something?

[Shock Wave]

I doubt anyone would be racking their brain to find a way to make this card playable if the art had not been awesome.

Somebody else summed it up though --- this card just doesn't compete with Jace. Even is you do live the dream with Lotus Cobra, I would still rather be resolving Jace than this thing.

[brianpk80]

I agree with all the comments that indicate the card is unplayable.  It wouldn't surprise me if this is the standout card in the set, given how abysmal Theros was and how it continued a worsening design trend that began with Gatecrash.  It's at the point now where the amount of playable cards in the remaining sets of this block may end up being zero exactly. 

[Smmenen]

I disagree that this card is unplayable.  I'm not predicting it will see play or not (for that you'll have to wait until our set review podcast), but I would be careful to rule out any cards that produce novel effects or produce them in novel combinations or for unusual costs. The specific and simultaneous combination of card and mana advantage is unique for a planeswalker.   Jace doesn't create additional land drops.  It remains to be seen whether that extra feature can be leveraged into enough other forms of advantage to make it either a complement or competitor to Jace (the former seems more plausible -- one could envision a 4jace/1Kiora or 3/2 split between the two).

Cobra has proven itself playable in the Vintage format in recent years, and more synergistic printings, such as this one, could help make it a stronger choice/structural support.  

Jace takes the two lands returned with Gush and turns the Brainstorm ability into a virtual Ancestral Recall.   In reality, though, you usually want to keep at least one of the lands to replay.  Here, Kiora allows you to replay both plays immediately.  The obvious sequence with Kiora is going to be Gush into it, -1, and then next turn, -1.  If that can be leveraged into a game winning sequence, Kiora could well be worth running.  That depends on many other factors, of course.  

The standards for planeswalker playability are very high, but lots of blue planeswalkers have seen Vintage Top 8 play (Jace 2, Tezzeret, Tezzeret 2, among others). This generates card advantage (which is the threshold condition for playability), but does something the others don't, which is make additional land drops.  The specific synergy with Gush is non-trivial, and as such, I think, rules out broadly drawn conclusions about unplayability.   A fairer assessment would be to say that this is an unlikely playable, but I wouldn't go further than that.  

On the contrary to Brian, I see this card as a promising start rather than a dire foreshadowing to what Born of the Gods may hold.

[MTGFan]

I disagree that this card is unplayable.  I'm not predicting it will see play or not (for that you'll have to wait until our set review podcast), but I would be careful to rule out any cards that produce novel effects or produce them in novel combinations or for unusual costs. The specific and simultaneous combination of card and mana advantage is unique for a planeswalker.   Jace doesn't create additional land drops.  It remains to be seen whether that extra feature can be leveraged into enough other forms of advantage to make it either a complement or competitor to Jace (the former seems more plausible -- one could envision a 4jace/1Kiora or 3/2 split between the two).

Except that Jace generates chunks of card quality and card advantage simultaneously over the long run. Brainstorm has proven to be more valuable in a vacuum (taking into consideration individual Vintage card power) than Explore or even Time Walk. In theory this planeswalker can generate card advantage as well but a.) its draw ability is tethered to a negative loyalty cost, which is far less tenable as a repeat option compared to Jace's +0 cost and b.) its ability to draw cards does not involve improvement of card quality at all as does Jace's Brainstorm effect.

In any format, but Vintage particularly, the ability to generate card advantage *and* card quality holds far more import than the ability to accelerate one's mana curve by exactly one land drop. Unless, of course, that ability is completely free and only costs the player a card draw that would probably otherwise be a land, as in the case of Moxen and Lotus.

Cobra has proven itself playable in the Vintage format in recent years, and more synergistic printings, such as this one, could help make it a stronger choice/structural support.  

Jace takes the two lands returned with Gush and turns the Brainstorm ability into a virtual Ancestral Recall.   In reality, though, you usually want to keep at least one of the lands to replay.  Here, Kiora allows you to replay both plays immediately.  The obvious sequence with Kiora is going to be Gush into it, -1, and then next turn, -1.  If that can be leveraged into a game winning sequence, Kiora could well be worth running.  That depends on many other factors, of course.  

The standards for planeswalker playability are very high, but lots of blue planeswalkers have seen Vintage Top 8 play (Jace 2, Tezzeret, Tezzeret 2, among others). This generates card advantage (which is the threshold condition for playability), but does something the others don't, which is make additional land drops.  The specific synergy with Gush is non-trivial, and as such, I think, rules out broadly drawn conclusions about unplayability.   A fairer assessment would be to say that this is an unlikely playable, but I wouldn't go further than that.  

On the contrary to Brian, I see this card as a promising start rather than a dire foreshadowing to what Born of the Gods may hold.

I would consider this playable had the Explore ability not been made a negative loyalty activation cost. As it stands, competing with Jace and his +0 Brainstorm effect is simply impossible for this planeswalker due to the greater value of Brainstorm (card quality) than Explore in Vintage, and the inability of this planeswalker to repeat its Explore effect (which does not affect Jace when Brainstorming) without depleting its loyalty counters.

And of course, the other two abilities seem to be mostly irrelevant in 98% of Vintage situations. Compare that to Jace's other abilities, which hold significant relevance in a typical Vintage board state.

[Samoht]

I disagree that this card is unplayable.  I'm not predicting it will see play or not (for that you'll have to wait until our set review podcast), but I would be careful to rule out any cards that produce novel effects or produce them in novel combinations or for unusual costs. The specific and simultaneous combination of card and mana advantage is unique for a planeswalker.   Jace doesn't create additional land drops.  It remains to be seen whether that extra feature can be leveraged into enough other forms of advantage to make it either a complement or competitor to Jace (the former seems more plausible -- one could envision a 4jace/1Kiora or 3/2 split between the two).

Except that Jace generates chunks of card quality and card advantage simultaneously over the long run. Brainstorm has proven to be more valuable in a vacuum (taking into consideration individual Vintage card power) than Explore or even Time Walk. In theory this planeswalker can generate card advantage as well but a.) its draw ability is tethered to a negative loyalty cost, which is far less tenable as a repeat option compared to Jace's +0 cost and b.) its ability to draw cards does not involve improvement of card quality at all as does Jace's Brainstorm effect.

In any format, but Vintage particularly, the ability to generate card advantage *and* card quality holds far more import than the ability to accelerate one's mana curve by exactly one land drop. Unless, of course, that ability is completely free and only costs the player a card draw that would probably otherwise be a land, as in the case of Moxen and Lotus.

Cobra has proven itself playable in the Vintage format in recent years, and more synergistic printings, such as this one, could help make it a stronger choice/structural support.  

Jace takes the two lands returned with Gush and turns the Brainstorm ability into a virtual Ancestral Recall.   In reality, though, you usually want to keep at least one of the lands to replay.  Here, Kiora allows you to replay both plays immediately.  The obvious sequence with Kiora is going to be Gush into it, -1, and then next turn, -1.  If that can be leveraged into a game winning sequence, Kiora could well be worth running.  That depends on many other factors, of course.  

The standards for planeswalker playability are very high, but lots of blue planeswalkers have seen Vintage Top 8 play (Jace 2, Tezzeret, Tezzeret 2, among others). This generates card advantage (which is the threshold condition for playability), but does something the others don't, which is make additional land drops.  The specific synergy with Gush is non-trivial, and as such, I think, rules out broadly drawn conclusions about unplayability.   A fairer assessment would be to say that this is an unlikely playable, but I wouldn't go further than that.  

On the contrary to Brian, I see this card as a promising start rather than a dire foreshadowing to what Born of the Gods may hold.

I would consider this playable had the Explore ability not been made a negative loyalty activation cost. As it stands, competing with Jace and his +0 Brainstorm effect is simply impossible for this planeswalker due to the greater value of Brainstorm (card quality) than Explore in Vintage, and the inability of this planeswalker to repeat its Explore effect (which does not affect Jace when Brainstorming) without depleting its loyalty counters.

And of course, the other two abilities seem to be mostly irrelevant in 98% of Vintage situations. Compare that to Jace's other abilities, which hold significant relevance in a typical Vintage board state.

QFT. I think you sum up the cards failing very well.

[MaximumCDawg]

I agree with Brian, too.  Steve is correct that a repeatable second land drop is rare - but it is not unique.  Exploration, fastbond, burgeoning, and gaea's touch all provide that effect at a far lower cost.  I think we can determine that, right now today, nothing interacts with kiora's ability strongly enough to justify playing her over Jace.  Hence, unplayable.  Could a future printing change that?  Yes, but that is no different from any other unplayable card.

[nedleeds]

I think we all agree this card isn't good in eternal, what I can't understand is how is this not 1UG? Is standard not equipped to deal with such savagery? I play a bit of Modern and even a CMC 3 this thing wouldn't be great, because of it's awful loyalty.

[Protoaddict]

3 CMC would probably make it too strong a drop on turn 1 in modern. I could easily see people playing a deathrite into this and double exploring into another one and just playing the control game all day.

Most 2-3 CMC walkers are limited to very specific decklists in order to limit how good they are at that CMC.

Ajani is pretty useless outside of White Weenie, Ashiok is useless in general, Domir Rade basically only works in a deck with 4 of him, 20 lands, and 36 red green creatures, Jace 1 is best in turbofog though he used to be good before JTMS, and Liliana is the best of them all and is still only great in something that generates card advantage like Jund or something specific like Pox.

This walker, while bad, is also more general in her abilities and can be used in more deck styles, hence why I think shes 4 cmc.

[MTGFan]

This is still strong in non-Eternal formats due to the absence of Jace.

In Standard and Modern, this is basically Jace-lite for control decks of those formats. It will see quite a bit of play as a control finisher there.

[Random Noob]

[dreamland]Time Walk is blue Explore. +1 Explore? +1 Time Walk?[/dreamland]

[fsecco]

[dreamland]Time Walk is blue Explore. +1 Explore? +1 Time Walk?[/dreamland]

I know people say Time Walk is blue's Explore as a joke, but well, if Explore read " Draw a card. Untap all your lands. You may play an additional land this turn." it would be pretty awesome.

[Samoht]

[dreamland]Time Walk is blue Explore. +1 Explore? +1 Time Walk?[/dreamland]

I know people say Time Walk is blue's Explore as a joke, but well, if Explore read " Draw a card. Untap all your lands. You may play an additional land this turn." it would be pretty awesome.

If it read that, people would play it.

[Soly]

I think of my planeswalkers like this.

If I can resolve it on Turn 1, will it win the game quickly with it's effect, and is it in colors that can be supported (AKA is it blue or can it be in a blue-based shell)?  IF yes, I believe it's playable.  IF No, I deem it unplayable.


Tezzeret AOB,  Jace TMS, and Tezzeret TS are playable.  Lilianna OTV is borderline.   I'm not convinced any other plainswalker is.  This one is not either.