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Author Topic: Shop Depths  (Read 12982 times)
TheWhiteDragon
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« on: January 12, 2014, 07:59:30 pm »

Not entirely sure if this should be a new thread or not. It's a version of "Dark Times", but vastly different enough I think to warrant its own thread.  It is certainly "shops" enough to fit into a shop prison category.  Here's the deck, followed by the reasoning (disclaimer: this deck isn't 100% optimal, but tuned and tested in a small local circle).

// Lands
    4  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1  Ancient Tomb
    4  Wasteland
    4  Thespian's Stage
    4  Dark Depths
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Mishra's Factory (1)

// Creatures
    4  Vampire Hexmage
    4  Lodestone Golem

// Spells
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Mana Vault
    1 [JGC] Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    2  Thorn of Amethyst
    1  Pithing Needle
    4  Tangle Wire
    3  Grafdigger's Cage
    4  Expedition Map
    4  Chalice of the Void
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Black Lotus

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3  Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2  Smokestack
SB: 2  Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4  Null Rod
SB: 1  Nihil Spellbomb


The first thing I'm sure EVERYONE notices - only mox jet (no other colors).  Well, you don't need colors other than black.  You get a bit of speed off moxen, but more so off mana vault in this case.  Also, expedition map doesn't play well with null rod (so rods are relegated to the SB for MUST use them matchups like long.dec), and your opponent may try to bring in rods since 4x map is your best tutor.  Rods would not only stop the maps, but then hammer your own moxen so a rod would really hurt.  I find tombs add the extra speed and 4x urborg make your depths tap for mana and all lands give you the BB you need for black tutors or hexmages.  So...no need for extra moxen.  This also makes chalice @0 a fantastic turn 1 (or even later) play, since I cut off almost nothing while my opponent may lose 6, 7, or more 0cc spells.

Now, past that issue.  The deck actually has a GREAT consistency for black mana.  The 4 urborgs are good - and thanks to the new legend rule, I can tap for B, drop a second, sacing the first, for the second B for hexmage.  You never need more than BB at once.  Also, map can find urborg if you have hexmage and depths (or if your opponent has needle on stage for example).  The deck also has a lot of explosive mana - crypt, lotus, vault, sol ring, tomb, 4x workshop, tolarian - so you can make multimana plays often and can commonly play and crack a map immediately.  So I've been pretty happy with the manabase.  Also, 5 strips + 4 map + 2 crucible + DT/Vamp + chalice + spheres leads to a lot of mana locks on the opponent.

The deck has a very "shopsy" feel to it in that you will often play shop, mana artifact, chalice 0, golem...follow up with thorn or tangle and waste....and just beat down while your opponent twiddles their thumbs in a manaless world.  A golem + chalice turn 1 followed by a turn 2 tangle/strip can often go the distance.  There's a fair amount of aggro to the deck too with 4 golem, 4 hexmage (2/1 first strike for 2 is deceptively good), and 2 factories (with 2 crucibles and 6 tutors)  It's not an overwhelming force, but sizable bodies that are cheap - and golem is certainly a viable gameplan all on his own.  The factory/crucible combo also makes for an infinite wall against big aggro critters like goyf or opposing golems.  

The tough matchups (as with most shop decks) are oath, dredge, and fast tinker/BSC.  That makes 3 main cages a good play (and 2 black tutors offset the need for 4 main).  The nice thing with this deck is troublesome decks for shops like fish are less troublesome because a 20/20 flier trumps their artifact hate and aggro swarm (and chalice @1 stops repeal, plow, chain of vapor).  The 2/1 first strikers are pretty good vs fish too.  Tendrils decks are hindered enough by the spheres and chalices, but not given enough time to hurkyl's and win since a 20/20 is usually on the board by turn 3ish.  Counters and duresses are usually not too troubleing, because you have multiple paths to victory, a slew of redundancy, and lands that combo into a win.  Strip effects that hinder dark times aren't too bad since you have 5 strips of your own as well as 2 crucible, needle, 6 tutors, and a completely alternate path to victory with a golem-based attack.  You have enough shop-lock pieces to slow down faster, colored decks...enough aggro for the win or to power over or hinder other critter-based decks...workshop acceleration and strips to combat other shop decks (with a MUCH bigger threat)...and the speed in a highly brutal Marit Lage. Turn 3 Marit with disruption is very common.

SB rounds out the cages, adds extra needles to stop jace and other problems, nihil for random grave strategies, and additional lock pieces to go more shops-prison style where appropriate (usually pulling out the maps as they seem first to get yanked).  Most strategies that hurt shops have nothing on depths, and vice versa, so this deck becomes very tough to board against.  It has the speed to win that most shops decks don't have and enough disruption against dredge, oath and combo that most dark depths decks don't have.  It really has been the best of both worlds.  There are a FEW games where you'll draw multiple stages/hexmages and not hit your depths or a tutor (but you have TEN copies, so that's crazy rare).  SOMETIMES you just don't get the right pieces together, but it's not often and actually feels LESS often than a straight MUD deck drawing mana and thorns and no threats or an oath deck drawing everything but tutors or oath.  The "bad" hands seem to come very seldom since the pieces of the deck synergize so well and you can play into either strategy or a bit of both.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 02:50:57 pm by TheWhiteDragon » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2014, 09:23:28 pm »

Have you considered a Bojuka Bog since you are running 4 x Maps?
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2014, 10:23:12 pm »

Bog seems like a decent sb card.  The nihil seems a bit better since it doesn't cost a land drop, negates card disadvantage with the draw, and can just sit and wait to be popped on opposing turns as opposed to in your main phase.  But, a bog in place of a card in the main or sb wouldn't be terrible and can add to grave hate redundancy.  With spheres and 3 needle (on bazaar), 4 cage, 1 nihil, and 5 wastes (with all the land tutors) I just haven't found the need for bog, but it certainly would be a nice card to add in a dredge/snapcaster/will heavy meta.  I feel fairly strong on the grave hate already, but very nice option.  I think maze (vs BSC) or tabernacle (vs fish/BUG when comboed with the strips) could be decent side options too.  But I found smokestack and other shop-prison pieces to be more universally useful in the sb.  Wurmcoil is another option I considered in sb vs aggro.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 01:26:17 am by TheWhiteDragon » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2014, 01:24:59 pm »

Anybody testing this?  I figured this deck was different enough to at least draw discussion...maybe not?  It seems to offer the best of DT combo with the basis of shop aggro strategy.  Any suggested improvements? Critiques? Bashings?
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2014, 05:40:06 pm »

I`d like to see an Academy ruins in the deck as a way of reusing map.
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2014, 07:21:54 pm »

Doesn't running 4 x thespian stages and 4 x dark depths and 4 x urborg flood hands with cards that are weak on their own or in multiples? I would drop 3 stages, and 3 depths, the hexmages, and the urborgs and run a set of welders and dark confidants and a full set crucibles and smokestacks and some measure of bazaars for a more classic welder bazaar list. This new list would be BR and run dark confidants and black tutors. The Stage Depths combo would be assembled via expedition map, black tutor, or bazaar/crucible. And you could run other toolkit lands like barbarian ring and bojuka bog.

I guess it comes down to whether you want to soft lock the opponent and assemble a combo without casting many spells (as in your version) or lay down a lot of pressure and have the dark depths combo be one way to finish among many (as in my version).
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2014, 10:48:27 pm »

Academy ruins would be great...but there's no way to get blue mana reliably.  As a singleton, you'd be using map to find ruins, then another to find the blue source.  It's much better to just find the combo.  Also, if the goal is mainly to recur map, then looking at the deck, you'll see why it's not necessary.  With 4 depths, 4 stage, you almost always start with 1.  That means you need to only use map once.  With 4 map, dt, and vamp, you are also more likely to just play 2 tutor effects without needing the work of recurring a tutor effect with non-combo cards.

The depths/stages/urborgs really aren't so bad in multiples.  They're not ideal to draw all 4 depths and no tutors or stages or hexmages (but that's rare to not draw 1 of 14 cards), but it happens I suppose.  It's by far the worst card in the deck to draw multiples of, but urborg offset's it's otherwise uselessness, and with 4 hex/4 stage, you DO want to draw a depths eventually (depending on tutors to find it cuts of your ability to chalice@1 and opens you up to getting steamrolled by counters).  Stage isn't really so bad on its own.  It taps for 1, and the majority of the deck is artifact.  It also copies good lands.  It can become additional factories or workshops or wastes.  The main reason for 4 depths/stages is that you just want to draw them sometimes, not tutor for them.  Nothing in magic stops you from drawing and playing lands, so it's the safest play.  You want tutors to speed the odds and get the combo, but it's so much easier to draw 1 and tutor for 1 rather than needing to resolve 2 tutors because you only run 2 copies of each land.  In a deck like monoblack or BG dark times, you have disruption to push through a tutor and can cheat on lesser numbers of lands.  In a deck that can't duress or counter opposing counters, you do better with sheer numbers - in tutors and the lands themselves.  4 urborg is actually the card I really enjoy as a 4-of.  There are 6 black spells, and only 4 urborgs, jet, and lotus.  If I drop chalice @0 (almost always), then you have ONLY 4 urborg for black.  It would be terrible to have a couple hexmages and a DT and no black mana...and need to waste a map on an urborg just to play out your hand.  Sometimes it's what you have to do, but it's not ideal.  Urborg is one of the cards I almost always want to start with in hand or draw quickly.  Urborg is also one of the few unrestricted cards in the deck that result in a turn 2 EoT Marit (depths, urborg, hexmage).  Also, due to the new legend rule, you can tap urborg, then sac it to a freshly played one for BB if you need mana otherwise from the other lands or they get tapped down by tangle.  While the deck is mostly colorless, black is a color I'm never sad to see, but hate to waste a tutor to find (though sometimes you need to).

I tried welders at one point, but found the ability to find red was just to tough unless you used maps to find it, or to find bazaar, which then found the red.  But if your tutoring for a card to help you find the combo, it seemed better to just find the combo from the start.  The -3/-3/-4 revision you suggest is basically playing a straight welder Mud deck with a singleton depths/stage combo.  I tried a singleton of each copy in my aggro welder deck - similar to yours, but with trike/wurmcoil instead of smokestax - and it was very underwhelming.  I rarely got the combo and most times just had a worthless depths on the table all alone.  If I had bazaar, i could kill with welder recurring wurmcoils long before I could dig up the land combo.  Even maps, while welder fodder, were a costly and clunky way to find useful lands, and I often wanted to find lands that weren't part of the combo since I'd almost always need to double tutor to find the combo.  In general, I've found any deck using depths needs to A) be dedicated to the combo in a substantial way, or B) add it in as an afterthought in a deck that ALREADY has lots of synergy (example, if a deck had 4 hexmages to begin with).  Dark Times examples A, and noblefish decks with knight of reliquary are the closest I've seen to B.  When just added in as singletons to an otherwise tuned deck, you just detract from that decks power rather than adding by introducing a different win-con.

If anything, I think a 3rd crucible might be decent...maybe revokers...but space is tight.  I like bazaar as a singleton land for filtering to fix hands that are exceptionally flooded with multiples of 1 card, though that's really rare.
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2014, 09:27:38 am »

I didn't want to make a new topic, because there was already a thread for this combo.

I really like the idea of dark depths in a prison deck. Lock down opponent, and finish with a single swing from a 20/20 flying indestructable.

I don't think that adding black to a shop deck is the way to go. One of MUD's strong sides are, that it doesn't manascrew on colors.
I think that Vampire Hexmage is redundant, since we have thespian's stage and the same goes for demonic-vampiric tutor because of the 4 expedition map.

The great thing about the combo is, that it can't be countered, only by stifle, trickbind, which are a very rare sight in vintage meta. of course wasteland can interfere with our plan, but this is were crucible of worlds become an important piece of the deck.

marit lage can be bounced by repeal, chain of vapor, echoing truth & other cards, that doesn't see much plays these days. jace tms obs isn't a problem since it's ability is sorcery.
Snuff out and abrupt decay can't deal with the big monster either, this leaves a pretty good matchup vs. BUG.

I believe that the control elements are the way to go combined with the dark depths/thespian stage combo.
You can put a lot of pressure on your opponent and slow him down with sphere's, wire, smoke, golem, wastelands and then when time is right put in the land combo.

This is the list i will run at one of the Bazaar of Moxen trials.

4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Expedition Map
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Tangle Wire
3 Dark Depths
4 Smokestack
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Duplicant

SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Dismember
SB: 2 Duplicant
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus

Also cards in consideration are phyrexian tower, karakas and high market vs. oath decks, but i think the deck is already favored there.

There are really many lines of play, which can be done with a lot of different hands, this gives great variety and allows you to maybe keep some questnable hands, where you can just top deck and win out of the blue.

Marit lage can win games for the stax deck, that would be very tight, hopeless or just straight up a bad matchup.

The thing, which all of you keen shop players will notice immediatly, is that this list is missing 4 very important cards for a prison deck.

Exactly, chalice of the void is what your're thinking of. Chalice can be broken and shut of many decks, if you hit the right amount of counters on it.

Often I will go for 1 cmc, and this will ruin my combo, if i draw Map in the following turn, of course if i have map in hand at the same time, i can play it first.

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated, or any suggestion or advice, maybe for some cards to exchange. Smile
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 09:30:20 am by Thiim » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 11:15:24 pm »

I like the more-prison build that you have, but I think it does open itself up to some of the common anti-shop plays from the opponent.  The reason I had hexmage is because it is a backup plan to stage when they have needle (a common sb card).  Also, turn 1 depths, turn 2 urborg, hexmage is usually GG and it isn't really that hard to get with 4x each in the deck.  I guess I played my version as more of a depths deck first, shops deck second - whereas you have the opposite approach.  I went with speed and resilience with additional disrupting threats (tangle/golem/chalice) as opposed to sphereing them out of the game and then happening to win in 1 shot (because at that point, you could when with a phyrexian revoker swinging).  Overall, I think the speed angle is the better angle to go with this build.  If you go heavy shop-lock, you slow down your other spells like map and you end up A) losing before you win, or B) being in a position where ANY card will do as a finisher.

Also, I see chalice as an always 4x of.  It's one of the best cards in the game.  If you run hexmage, you also don't care so much about locking out your maps.
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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2014, 06:27:41 am »

I have tested it a bit more and tuned this deck, since my last post. Here is how the list looks now:

4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Expedition Map
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Tangle Wire
2 Dark Depths
4 Smokestack
1 Buried Ruin
4 Chalice of the Void
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karn, Silver Golem

SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Dismember
SB: 2 Duplicant
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus

I moved tabernacle to the main, because it's seems good in many matchup's.

I've added buried ruin to the main, because it's really nice combo with crucible of worlds.

Then i cutted 1 dark depths, since they don't produce mana and i only need 1 to win. But i want an xtra in case of Dr.Shaman remove it from my graveyard.

I must admit that i can't do without CotV. i need them against so many broken cards.
To make room for them, i've cutted 2 metamorphs & 2 thorn of amethyst(because they are not good against all decks)
Also Duplicant was cutted from the main, because i think it's to heavy on 6cmc.

I've found that this list works well, maybe it's not as fast as the Vampire Hexmage version, with turn 2 eot Marit Lage, but for me, it doesn't matter if I win on turn 1 or turn 16, as long as I win i'm at ease.
The important thing for me, is that the deck is efficient and works consisstent every time.
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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2014, 02:51:42 pm »

The other thing to consider is that 1) urborg makes depths/tombs tap for mana pain free, so they aren't wasted, and 2) hexmage is a HOUSE vs aggro and planeswalkers.  Demonic and vampiric are more speed than necessary, but null rod effects turn off map - which means you are now a pure shop deck with a rare "oops, I win" combo.  The tutors dodge rod, and the 4 of each land + 4 hemage mean you just straight up draw your combo more often than not.  Mishra's factory is also great at killing opposing golems, beating most aggro with crucible, slipping under a standstill, and adding to a weenie-beats clock (sometimes factory/hex can go the distance alone with wastes, spheres, and tangles blocking your opponent).
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2014, 10:03:26 pm »

Very cool idea, thanks for posting it!  I've sleeved up the Dark Times list (don't own power so a couple proxies) and have been enjoying it, but the deck as it used to exist didn't have much interaction and so was soft to early beats or force/drain/misstep decks.

One of the things I've enjoyed about the old Dark Times list is one of its alt-win cons.  It can win with Marit Lage, Hexmage and Bob beats, or with Leyline/Helm combo.  I see your list runs 3 G-Cage main.  Any thoughts to main decking 4x Leyline of the Void instead and adding one or two Helm of Obedience?  Or do you think your list doesn't need the additional win-con?
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2014, 11:51:45 am »

Why is demonic consultation not in your deck? With so many four ofs that are all combo i would easily include it over both demonic and vampiric.
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2014, 12:22:51 pm »

Why is demonic consultation not in your deck? With so many four ofs that are all combo i would easily include it over both demonic and vampiric.
I wouldn't go so far as to say "over" but in addition to has merit.  I think the mono-black Dark Times list runs it (I do), but he's also got 4x Expedition Map here which is another great tutor for the combo pieces.
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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2014, 02:48:00 pm »

Consultation is a great card.  The trouble is what to cut to fit it.  I wouldn't be opposed to using it.  I could actually see it over the 3rd cage or the needle.  The maindeck cages are to hit dredge/oath which seem to always be the toughest of decks no matter what meta (imho).  It also shuts off half of burning oath, and spheres cut off the other half.  Leyline/helm is okay, but I found I'd often draw extra leylines, or helm with no leyline.  Leyline is a card you really want to mull into, and if I'm holding a decent tutor/combo piece hand, i won't mull.  A cage is fine as a topdeck, and also hits oath which is the clincher for me.  With a cage and chalice @1, Dredge can't win reliably.  Oath can just do stupid things like mox, land, oath....and then I need some answer (unless I just get the thespian/depths combo and EoT a Marit).  When they get orchard, I really need an answer and leyline doesn't cut it.  Also, Null rod/silence is fairly common, and then they get bonus hits over just moxen and maps.  

I really enjoy the redundancy of the deck.  The golems really complement the hex beats plan.  There are so many ways to quickly make a Marit, it's great.  Locking out answers with spheres, tangle, chalice is also a great thing.  I always liked needle as an answer to opposing wastes, but with crucibles, it is fine if they have wastes as I just replay the combo.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 03:04:48 pm by TheWhiteDragon » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2014, 05:58:11 pm »

makes sense re: cage over leyline/helm

re: Consultation, perhaps it can replace 1 of the 4 Expedition Maps?  They're redundant pieces in that they can both find parts of the Marit combo, and all 3 pieces are run in multiples, but Consultation has the upside of being able to find an answer card in a pinch.
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2014, 11:56:55 pm »

I like the idea of a consult.  I'm not sure about over map, but it's possible.  The difference being that consult require B, whereas map requires 3.  The manabase of the deck seems more able to hit 3 than it is B, but not by much.  It does dodge rod effects, which is nice.  I can see this trade being good.
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2014, 12:55:25 pm »

Question about the spheres...is SoR better than thorn in this list?  I have 8 critters, but it the threat of any fish critter enough to add sphere over thorn?
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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2014, 11:22:18 am »

Sphere of resistence is definitely better than thorn of amethyst. This Mapstack deck doesnt want to see Shaman(gorilla/deathrite) welder, Bob, revoker, goyf, vendilion, stoneforge, trinket mage etc.

As i wrote ealier, we need to lock down opponent as fast possible to prevent them from disturbing our combo tricks Smile

Also i wouldn't recommend adding more black(consultation) to deck, but of course i like my list better(and i haven't tested the other) so that's just my view on things.

I can't really bring anything new to this topic at this point, but i will report back about how the trial went in France if you wish me to?
I expect there to be 50+ players.
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2014, 01:22:33 pm »

Yes, a report would be great!  (Also, try testing out my black version before you make a final decision.)

I also expect the hexmage version will be even better when Dack Fayden starts filling out the metagame.
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2014, 02:08:35 pm »

So I promised to write a little about my experience in the bom trial in annecy Smile

Unfortunately, i can't really brag about a great statistic down there, but i got some very good and close matches. First day in 5 rounds of swiss i went 2-3.

I cut a single map, so i only played 3 and added an extra Karn. I won my 2 matches on locking out my opponent, and only 1 game with marit lage Sad

though people seemed really surprised by the combo, even though it's not a new one, i guess in stax it is..

2'nd day I played winther oath with dark depths going 3-2. I really think that it fits a lot better in that build.

3'rd day I played powder stacks also going 3-2.

At the main Event I decided to play Terra Nova and went 5 wins, 1 draw & 3 losses in 9 rounds of swiss and ended up number 50 with 16 points.

My conclusion is that it's a very fun deck too pilot when it works with no interference, but other MUD decks are just better. I wouldn't mind playing it in a small local tournament  though Very Happy
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2014, 10:03:38 pm »

Try it as I built it, not the "stax with depths combo" build.  I think you find it to be much more consistent and killing with Marit far more often.
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« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2015, 06:36:15 pm »

*necro*

Since Shops are not always on Chalice@1 anymore, I guess for brewing, the best is to start with cmc 1 cards (Torpor Orb and Dreadnought combo would be a possibility too). First thing that came to me was Hex Parasite, which is good in killing Planenswalkers, and could catch some point in the mirror against Hangarback Walker.

First sketch which seemed playable so far:


4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Smokestack
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
1 Chalice of the Void

1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Hex Parasite

I am not a fan of Expedition Map, but it could be an addition. Besides killing stuff with counters, Parasite synergieses with Dark Depths, and Smokestack. Thespian's Stage and Depths are just a throw in, to give more comboish options for Parasite.

Thoughts?
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gkraigher
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« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2015, 06:59:02 pm »

creative deck, you need to add 1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth and 1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale to the main. 
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« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2015, 02:02:20 am »

Now that chalice is restricted, I looked back at my original list.  I also reread the posts.  I think there's now easily space for tabernacle, consultation, +1 other card.  I'd think a sphere would be good.  I think oath and dredge will be even bigger now that shops is weakened, so the main cages seem even more important to me.

I see a lot of the different takes on my build keep leaning towards a shop deck that just jams in the depths combo.  The last version posted at least runs 4 of each land and 4 maps, but with no urborgs the depths will be a tougher play on mana.  Hex Parasite is insanely slow.  Vampire is way better for speed, attacking power, and killing planeswalkers in one shot.  Parasite requires mana and a lot of life to kill things.  It also costs 1 which is blocked by misstep or chalice - just like map.  Varying mana cost is good, and adding speed to the combo and a solid threat in one card is good.

This deck really has to be a combo deck first and use workshop and shop soft-lock/clock pieces as a compliment...NOT shops as the main strategy.  As I said, and have found in testing, and others have found in testing as they reported, making this a mostly shops deck with the combo stuck in as an afterthought will lose.  It will be inconsistent at getting the combo and just worse than a dedicated shops deck.  But running 4 maps, 3 black tutors, 4 depths, 4 vampire, 4 stages....that's a LOT towards getting the combo.  The spheres and golems and chalice and tangles are all just tools to buy you time and offer you wins with golem/wire that need to be combatted in a totally different way than the depths combo.  That's one of the main reasons I took this approach.  Depths hate is mainly worthless vs shops, and shops hate sucks vs depths.  Plow is the only card that hurt both (golem and marit) and that's what the 4 chalice were for.  We still have 1 chalice and enough threat density that a single plow won't stop you...and also enough combo redundancy that you could poop out a Marit every turn or two.

Whichever build you try, remember to go combo first and shops second, not the other way around - it won't work.
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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2015, 05:46:19 am »

This is a list one of the locals has been playing for about 3 years. Since the restrictions it will need some work, but it is a proven platform:
4
8) Josh Archer – Dirty MUD
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Dark Depths
1 Buried Ruin
1 Wasteland
3 Thespian Stage
1 Strip Mine

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

3 Expedition Map
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Coercive Portal
3 Staff of Nin
1 Batterskull

4 Lodestone Golem
2 Karn, Silver Golem

Sideboard:
2 Defence Grid
1 Batterskull
1 The Tabernacle at Pendral Vale
2 Dismember
2 Portcullis
1 Karakas1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Grafdiggers Cage
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« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2015, 09:35:50 am »

Hex Parasite is insanely slow

It is slow when you are referring to it as a way to get dark depths online.  But the card is actually much better than it used to be, not only are planeswalkers targets but it nullifies cards in MUD like Arcbound Ravager and Hangarback Walker. 

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« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2015, 11:36:49 pm »

Hex Parasite is insanely slow

It is slow when you are referring to it as a way to get dark depths online.  But the card is actually much better than it used to be, not only are planeswalkers targets but it nullifies cards in MUD like Arcbound Ravager and Hangarback Walker. 



Parasite probably has more usability long term, but it requires mana.  A turn 1 jace could bury you before you hit 5 mana.  Hexmage kills it immediately.  Parasite also gets hit by misstep (which I expect to see MORE play) and chalice @1 should you land your single chalice - which ALSO hits map.  Hexmage varies the mana costs for getting the combo.  Hexmage is also a nice creature as a 2/1 first strike, where Parasite can pump, but dies to any creature.  I think it is a matter of long game vs short game.  Again, if you are playing shops first, long game may be okay and parasite is just another control card.  But in my experience, shops first loses much more often than combo first.  A dedicated shops deck is better than a hybrid shops deck.  But a dedicated combo deck is not necessarily better than a combo deck with a shops splash.  I think the key way to look at this deck is combo with a shops splash, not the other way around. 

Granted, it is fun to play either way, but as a shops-first deck, you are basically running bad lands with an occasional "oops I win", and will often draw useless things like map or depths when you need a golem or sphere or tangle.  Running less than 4x each of depths and stage means you almost always need to tutor for both halves, which is way too slow and disruptible.  However, if you are dedicated to the combo, every other card you draw buys you time (golem, tangle, sphere) and you many times will just draw into the combo or only need to tutor for one piece.  It makes it much faster and less vulnerable to hate/counters/disruption.

Whichever way you go, have fun.  But for the best results, I have extensively played both versions and the combo=first approach was far better, faster, and more consistent.
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« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2015, 10:24:17 pm »

So just out of curiosity, is Nether Void that bad of a card in this deck?  It doesn't affect your combo and you can pay for your artifacts with Mishra's Workshop.  I could see at least one in the sideboard being a card that ends games.
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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2015, 11:05:32 pm »

So just out of curiosity, is Nether Void that bad of a card in this deck?  It doesn't affect your combo and you can pay for your artifacts with Mishra's Workshop.  I could see at least one in the sideboard being a card that ends games.

Can you? It looks like the oracle text says counter it unless they pay 3, which to me sounds different than "add 3 mana to the CMC of the card when casting it". So for example, you'd be paying 2 colorless for Phyrexian Revoker and 3 for Nether Void, rather than 5 mana for the Revoker. It looks more similar to the wording on Spell Pierce than a sphere effect
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 11:35:07 pm by Minkar » Logged
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