Spirit of the Labrynth

[Soly]

I'm really not excited about this card.  As a combo/Control player, I don't even really worry about this.   It's a 3/1 for IW which is pretty good, but it dies to so many things in the format.  I don't worry at all because any deck I play outside doomsday is designed to kill things on the battlefield.

[zeus-online]

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[Saya]

4 Spirit of the Labrynth
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 AEther Vial
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Mental Misstep
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
4 Scrubland
2 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
7 Plains
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Mox Jet

SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Abolish
SB: 3 Devout Witness
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Dismember

[Demagoguery]

I feel like while WB or mono-White are good with this, it might be better in a UW shell. Yes, blue often times wants to draw cards, but as we've listed there are plenty of ways around the draw back in blue, such as Fact or Fiction. Additionally Vandilion Clique works really well with it and you still get access to stuff like Snapcaster Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, and Trinket Mage to generate card advantage without having to actually draw cards. You can also run the big powerful spells, like Tinker and Time Vault, with Tezz (Another card that can create card advantage without actually drawing), to go over the top of other control decks.

This way you get access to the best counters to protect your guys from Toxic Deluge (and cards similar to it), still generate card advantage, get a Time Walk that is just brutal with a couple of 3/1s in play, get access to some silly things like Clique+Karakas, and even have access to things like Path and Swords to keep the enemy Bobs at bay.

Repeal is also not the worst thing with or against this card, since you'd still get the draw if you do it on the other players turn.

Oh, and oddly enough, Bloodbraid Elf actually works really well with this card. Maybe some kind of Naya Hate deck with BBE for card advantage?

This card is an example of why i wish wotc would just not print cards for eternal formats.

It's a fine card, very powerful....and extremely boring. It enhances some existing decks, hurts some existing decks but it creates no new ones (and it might actually slay a potential deck)

5/5 for usefulness and power
0/5 for design

Preemptive-edit: I don't think this will make or break anything btw, there are already way too many great 2 mana hatebears out there, what does one more matter?
2nd Preemptive-edit: Both Dark confidant, gifts ungiven and fact or fiction circumvents this card.

The problem is that it's easy to print hate cards, as the worst that they do is make an existing deck weaker, but printing enablers creates situations where they can spawn decks that are oppressive. Stoneforge was the most recent enabler printed and we saw what it did to many formats, but it's only now starting to see some real play in Vintage. Prior to Stoneforge we got an errata to Flash, which resulted in various restrictions as it was too oppressive in any format where the combo actually worked. Even Survival was a bit too dominant in Legacy once Vengevine was printed.

In short, enablers are cards that force them to be aware of every card they print afterwards that might interact too well with that enabler, so they tend to be very cautious with them, but hate cards don't really have that issue for the most part. I'd like it if they printed a few more enablers in special sets, since that would be cool, but they seem to not want to do that either :/.

[gkraigher]

Saya,

I'd run 4 ghost quarter in a deck with 4 leonin arbiters and feel really good about it.  9 main deck hate cards vs shops and dredge  that also tap for a colorless mana.

I'd also run 1 Brimaz in my 75. 

[zeus-online]

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[Demagoguery]

Impulse and Forbidden Alchemy also work with this card.

The problem is that it's easy to print hate cards, as the worst that they do is make an existing deck weaker, but printing enablers creates situations where they can spawn decks that are oppressive. Stoneforge was the most recent enabler printed and we saw what it did to many formats, but it's only now starting to see some real play in Vintage. Prior to Stoneforge we got an errata to Flash, which resulted in various restrictions as it was too oppressive in any format where the combo actually worked. Even Survival was a bit too dominant in Legacy once Vengevine was printed.

Cool story bro, tell that to trinisphere and lodestone golem. Hate can easily be oppressive as well.
Also "as the worst that they do is make an existing deck weaker" - Yeah, that is exactly the problem. I do not feel that the decks this would be used against are all that strong right now, weakening them takes away from the format, not add to it. (Not that i think this particular card will have enough impact to actually weaken anything)

It might be "easy", but that does not make it right. I feel like the format would be a lot better if they stopped printing cards like these.

Kind of, not really. Neither Trinisphere nor Lodestone are oppressive in themselves, and both don't see more than marginal play in Legacy where both are legal, it's their enabler, the dreaded Mishra's Workshop that allows them to be oppressive. More so, Lodestone Golem isn't particularly oppressive, as it hasn't been dominating Vintage for a while now.

I agree, Blue control isn't amazing right now and making a deck that's not overly dominant weaker doesn't help. Though I don't think they printed this with Eternal in mind exactly, as right now Sphinx's Revelation, is a deck in itself when it comes to Standard, Read the Bones/Underworld Connections/Erabos/etc see plenty of play in Standard too, and Modern has its fair share of similar cards that draw a bunch. It's probably no coincidence that pseudo-Bob comes out with this card too.

I really can't say if it would be better or worse, why do you believe it would be better?

[zeus-online]

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[Smmenen]

*Wow*  

Thank god Necro and Bob don't "draw" cards.  

[MTGFan]

Yay. Another 2-mana hatebear. This time it has *three* power. They're getting creative!

I mean - what a sterling example of innovative design. These guys should open up their own design consulting firm and give speeches at Apple and Google.

[Guli]

Because they are fun and give the designer of creatue based decks more options. I call them love bears by the way. This new love bear is decent overall, especially against the brainstorm ability of JTMS and the draw 7 of Griselbrand. It allows your Karakas to become even more powerfull against Griselbrand and kinda forces JTMS to use bounce tactics.

It doesn't have to be a Human with that mana cost guys, white is one of the main colors anyway because you want Karakas around these days anyway.

Also, the splash of Spirits (from a Humans perspective) is perfectly viable and possible (mana base wise and powerlevel) for cards like Kataki and Geist Saint Traft. Three different spirits is enough of a splash anyway.

I don't see why someone would actually try to make a case against love bears.... It is for some of us the reason why we play magic, it is fun. If you do not like it, don't play them. It is absurd to think they are 'hurting' the format or limiting deck design.

[EpsilonMinus]

If this guy was a 1U 3/1 creature that read "When this enters the battlefield, you may search your library for a instant or sorcery card with a converted mana cost of 1 or less" people would be going apeshit and talking about what an awesome card it was and how they can't wait to jam four of them in their decks.  Just saying...

/blue control bias

EDIT: OK, that's a little drive-by and snarky, but the reality is that Wizards isn't going to print an Ancestral/Necropotence power level type card.

[MTGFan]

Because they are fun and give the designer of creatue based decks more options. I call them love bears by the way. This new love bear is decent overall, especially against the brainstorm ability of JTMS and the draw 7 of Griselbrand. It allows your Karakas to become even more powerfull against Griselbrand and kinda forces JTMS to use bounce tactics.

It doesn't have to be a Human with that mana cost guys, white is one of the main colors anyway because you want Karakas around these days anyway.

Also, the splash of Spirits (from a Humans perspective) is perfectly viable and possible (mana base wise and powerlevel) for cards like Kataki and Geist Saint Traft. Three different spirits is enough of a splash anyway.

I don't see why someone would actually try to make a case against love bears.... It is for some of us the reason why we play magic, it is fun. If you do not like it, don't play them. It is absurd to think they are 'hurting' the format or limiting deck design.

I fully support anyone who wishes to play hate bear decks in the eternal formats. I myself play Thalia in Legacy and various fish-like decks in Vintage.

I merely dislike the design of most of these creatures. It's very transparent, inelegant, and blunt. More nuance would be welcome.

[MrGlantz]

I'm very excited to see where this card fits in my white trash list. It dies to literally anything in the format, but has a very powerful effect. I'm not sure why people are upset. Every single deck has a way to deal with it. It's just something that some people may have to familiarize themselves with.

It may seem boring, but Guli is right when he points out there there are those of us who enjoy these cards. I love playing awful decks like White Trash and having my opponents roll their eyes when I play standard legal cards.

[Stormanimagus]

Because they are fun and give the designer of creatue based decks more options. I call them love bears by the way. This new love bear is decent overall, especially against the brainstorm ability of JTMS and the draw 7 of Griselbrand. It allows your Karakas to become even more powerfull against Griselbrand and kinda forces JTMS to use bounce tactics.

It doesn't have to be a Human with that mana cost guys, white is one of the main colors anyway because you want Karakas around these days anyway.

Also, the splash of Spirits (from a Humans perspective) is perfectly viable and possible (mana base wise and powerlevel) for cards like Kataki and Geist Saint Traft. Three different spirits is enough of a splash anyway.

I don't see why someone would actually try to make a case against love bears.... It is for some of us the reason why we play magic, it is fun. If you do not like it, don't play them. It is absurd to think they are 'hurting' the format or limiting deck design.

I fully support anyone who wishes to play hate bear decks in the eternal formats. I myself play Thalia in Legacy and various fish-like decks in Vintage.

I merely dislike the design of most of these creatures. It's very transparent, inelegant, and blunt. More nuance would be welcome.

See you and I differ on the definition of the word "elegant." To me, elegant is a rules text that is only one simple sentence. This card definitely qualifies on those grounds for my definition of "elegance."

-Storm

[zeus-online]

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[MrGlantz]

I bet that your "awful white trash" deck could easily be build to destroy "The storm menace". These creatures are not cute and cuddly anymore.

I am not upset about the card itself, since i don't see it making a big splash (Unless something like brainstorm gets unrestricted), but the fact that wotc keeps printing more and more cards that hate on spell based decks without giving them much to defend themselves with.

I know! It's like they didn't just print Toxic Deluge or something...

[Protoaddict]

See you and I differ on the definition of the word "elegant." To me, elegant is a rules text that is only one simple sentence. This card definitely qualifies on those grounds for my definition of "elegance."

-Storm

I agree, this card is honestly really elegant.

It is first and foremost simple. Simple does not mean elegant but it does not have extraneous abilities and wording to make it viable, which is the mark of inelegant design. It is not unnecessarily a legend or some other random thing. I would make the argument that a lot of cards in vintage, both new and old, are not at all elegant. Jace is not elegant. Sylvan Library is not elegant. BSC is not elegant.

Secondly, it fits into a deck that does not need to draw extra cards. It does not contradict itself or it's own strategy.

Third, decks that are weak to it need to get rid of it quickly, and therefore it protects itself as it prevents digging for answers to it to an extent. This is very similar to Thalia/lodestone/spheres in that she makes most removal that would target her cost more in the first place.

Fourth, it is viable against many deck for different reasons. It's good against blue (and elves I guess) because it hurts draw, its playable against shops because it can trade with lodestone, its good against dredge because it can punish weak dredge hands with bazaar, its good against fish because 3 power helps you race.

Lastly, it is properly costed to be viable but not pushed. If this was a 2/1 for W these forums would explode in anger, 3 it would be unplayable unless it was 3/3 or better, and even then maybe not.

[zeus-online]

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[MrGlantz]

I bet that your "awful white trash" deck could easily be build to destroy "The storm menace". These creatures are not cute and cuddly anymore.
I am not upset about the card itself, since i don't see it making a big splash (Unless something like brainstorm gets unrestricted), but the fact that wotc keeps printing more and more cards that hate on spell based decks without giving them much to defend themselves with.

I know! It's like they didn't just print Toxic Deluge or something...

Which is really tearing up the place, right?

It is ironic though, that the creatures that really *are* tearing up the place are those without restrictive abilities (Delver, Goyf, Confidant and so on)

My mistake. You are certainly right there's no efficient ways to deal with creatures at all, especially nothing recent. Arguments are certainly stronger when you just completely ignore evidence to the contrary.

[xouman]

Hate cards are played because there are real cards/decks that get hated. Blue decks get most of that hate because they are probably the most played archetype. I played myself Viashino heretic  (2 or 3) in the main in 2012, and while some people were surprised and few complained, the big amount of mud made that viable. Before that, while playing faeries (with 18 permission cards) blue players complained too, saying that decks made "fun" and "real magic" decks unplayable.

This card does not make blue decks unplayable, just add more cards to the vintage pool. Do you like to draw tons of cards and this card is unfun? well, I like to attack with small creatures and find tinker and toxic deluge unfun. Luckily nowadays are answers to most real threats, and this new spirit seems an answer or solution, not a problem.

If this guy was a 1U 3/1 creature that read "When this enters the battlefield, you may search your library for a instant or sorcery card with a converted mana cost of 1 or less" people would be going apeshit and talking about what an awesome card it was and how they can't wait to jam four of them in their decks.  Just saying...

That would be a bit too much. There are similar cards (trinket mage or augur of bolas), but worse. You are speaking about a non conditional card advantage creature, and even better, since it would tutor lots of things (not only ancestral or vampiric, but pacts, missteps, bolts, swords...)

[KrauserKrauser]

Rules Manager Matt Tabak on Twitter said that the Spirit shuts down Dredge via Bazaar (well, the 2nd on your opponent's turn at least.

Since there is no ability to draw a card, there is no draw to replace.

Makes it even better as Dredge hate.

[gkraigher]

that ruling on dredge seems wrong, since dredge is a replacement effect.  that would be like saying helm of obedience and rest in piece don't work for the same reason.  with this, you never drew a card so you should continue to get an opportunity to draw your first card. 

[KrauserKrauser]

But since you can't draw a card, there is no draw to replace.  The draw has to be valid for Dredge to trigger.  The draw comes before the dredge and since this blocks the draw, there can be no dredge.

[gkraigher]

ok, i bazaar on your turn.  i replace the first draw with a dredge.  why could i not replace the my next draw with another dredge or draw the card because i haven't drawn a single card this turn?


this thing stops you from bazaaring if you have drawn a card this turn, but if you have not drawn a card i don't see how you cannot keep replacing your FIRST draw again and again with dredge.  

we already have a ruling similar for chains of mephistopheles, if you replace a draw from bazaar with dredge you do not discard a card from chains.  if you dredge once and draw once, you only discard one card (not two) for chains.  His ruling is in direct contradiction to historic rulings, shows no parallelism, and honestly makes absolutely no sense to me.  

does underworld dreams do damage to me if i dredge?  NO because I have not drawn a card.

[WhiteLotus]

But since you can't draw a card, there is no draw to replace.  The draw has to be valid for Dredge to trigger.  The draw comes before the dredge and since this blocks the draw, there can be no dredge.

If you use dredge to replace each card you would draw, you're never actually drawing a card. So the "Each player can't draw more than one card each turn" never comes into account, since all the draws you would take are legal but never actually happen. Or am I missing something ?

[gkraigher]

Matt Tabak ‏@TabakRules 12h

Under Spirit of the Labyrinth, you can't use draw replacements like dredge after drawing a card. You can't replace an impossible action.

Matt Tabak ‏@TabakRules 12h

Conversely, you can dredge multiple times if you haven't drawn a card under SotL. It checks what you've actually done that turn.

these make sense to me. 

[Protoaddict]

So it works exactly as we thought. If you draw instead of dredging you cannot use a bazaar for dredging (till your opponents turn) BUT if you never draw a card, including the draw step, you are free to dredge away.

It's really not great against dredge until you pair it with Rest in Peace, at which point it becomes amazing. Since they have to answer rest in peace they likely will have to dig, and this will stop them and make them have to play a fair game by casting spells. Your dudes will be bigger and mana base is better and you will win with that.

Now I'm really crossing my fingers that some other good enchantments/enchantment creatures come out in this set so i can find a use for my Serra Sanctums

[vaughnbros]

It's really not great against dredge until you pair it with Rest in Peace, at which point it becomes amazing. Since they have to answer rest in peace they likely will have to dig, and this will stop them and make them have to play a fair game by casting spells. Your dudes will be bigger and mana base is better and you will win with that.

Lol.  Rest in peace and ANYTHING wins against dredge... I don't think this card is affecting that match up.  If it ever becomes a problem for the dredge player, they can kill it with darkblast.

[davidasmatthews]

the biggest thing this card does in the dredge match up is have a 3 power. I've played white trash against dredge a bunch. While the rest in peace T1 or T2 is nice, what happens more often is my opponent plays a bazaar, activates it once, I waste it, and then he slow plays. Having a 3 power allows a much faster clock than another 2/2 hatebear with no effect on dredge.