Spirit of the Labrynth

[Protoaddict]

I'm guessing Graffdiggers cage gets cut down on maindeck because this works against a lot of the same lists on a different angle. But probably also Mind Censor just cause its the most costly of things you run.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I'm actually running it in a BGW Dark Times deck. I actually cut 3 null rods and some other stuff to add 2 vials and 4 of these guys.  The vials help me drop my critters, 13 of which cost 2 anyway, and circumvent the need for my scrublands/deathrites.  I have found the vials to be useful (which you can't play with rods), but mainly the Spirits are AWESOME.  They actually solve a lot of the same problems null rod does and more:

Null rod is good vs vault/key.  Spirit stops blue's draw.  Vault and Key are typically 1-ofs.  Yes, the blue decks use tezz, DT, vamp, tinker to find those pieces, but spirit can swing in and kill tezz after it has found vault - so they can't use tezz's untap ability or find key next turn.  If they can't ancestral, brainstorm, jacestorm, ponder, or preordain (the last 2 become terrible one-shot divining tops), it becomes much harder for them to dig for tutors.  With vials too, I get to get a massive tempo swing on a Jace or brainstorm freshly cast, as they basically just lose 2 cards and then I swing to kill jace on my turn.  In addition, being BGW I have qasali and decay (and needles), so I have answers to vault.

Null rod is decent vs shops. Spirit however is a 3/1 so it can trade with a golem or play "lodestone wall" all day.  Honestly, while shutting off moxen may slow shops a bit, hitting their non-workshop mana is not a big deal.  Golems are how they beat you to death while locking you down 9 times out of 10.  If I can stop their "aggro" then that buys much more time.  Also, having access to vials and my own mox mana which I lose to null rods is better than shutting off opposing moxen and watching golems overrun my 2/1s and smash my face. I prefer Spirit to Rod in this matchup.

Null rod is good vs Affinity decks.  Rod certainly is better, but spirit DOES stop skullclamp and thoughtcast, so it's not worthless.  It also can add extra blocks if needed.

Null rod is fairly dead vs fish or dredge. Spirit can stop bazaar digging and gitaxian probe if you get him down early.  Spirit also stops U-draw and Edric-type fish.  It also blocks.

Null rod is dead vs gush. Spirit OWNS gush.  They can't cast their signature spell as anything but a cantrip on your turn.  BS, ponder, preordain, jacestorm, ancestral all become dead.  Vialing one in also can result in big tempo swings as I said.  Also, Spirit can kill early tarmgoyfs if need be.

Null rod is decent vs storm/burning oath. While they can use moxen for storm and mana, they often need to draw massive amounts of cards to get the storm they need.  All their draw 7s are useless.  They mind twist both players but then you get the first draw and they have no blockers for your 3/1.  They can also oath, but then they can't use grisel other than as a body.  Decays/qasali again hurt the oath route, and I also run karakas so I can handle a grisel that can't draw cards.  But the spirit is AS good as null rod if not better vs the storm route.  They also can't dig for answers or an oath, and they may have main hurkyll's/sb shattering spree to wish for, but won't be playing any sorcery speed enchantment removal in the sb (is there even playable sorcery speed enchantment removal?).  Balance is still troubling, but they could just as easily cast spree if they are wasting a wish on a removal spell.

Rod is mostly useless vs landstill.  Rod is really only good for stopping EE, and the explosives ARE troublesome vs a deck with 13 2cc critters.  But, landstill also tends to run as much artifact removal as it does creature removal, and its namesake card becomes MUCH less threatening with a Spirit on board.  If I land a vial, it is also really bad news vs landstill which I can't run along with null rod.  Null rod is often run BY landstill because of how little it affects them.  While bolt, fire/ice, and EE get a target with Spirit, the ingot chewers, hurkylls, and sabotages lose a target.  I also run 4 pithing needles in my deck, so EE doesn't get away with much (they are mainly to stop wastes - then jace, vault, bazaar, etc.)

Null rod is bad against many random decks. A 3/1 beater is never dead.  It's also going to hit random draw spells as often as rod shuts off random artifacts.  in BGW, you obviously run 4x confidant as your "draw", so the effect is fairly one-sided, whereas rod hinders your own moxen/vials/equip.

I find Spirit to be a pretty good trade for Rod as a maindeck card actually, if you are looking for a swap-out spot.  I still run 2-3 rods/stony in the SB though as it is great vs bomberman and some other choice matchups where rods AND Spirit can be crushing.  Spirit is certainly valuable though and adds to any aggro plan while serving a similar role as null rod.  Most null rod-hated cards can also be answered with decay/needle or other "answer" cards.  Draw is MUCH harder to stop - even with duresses - since you can't answer them AFTER they are cast like you can with artifacts.

[msg67183]

I like the ideas u have here WhiteDragon, here is the White Trash list I have put together for my buddy since his other list was having problems with Creature decks:


White Trash!:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Relic Warder
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Dryad Militant
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth

3 Rest in Peace
3 Path to Exile

Mox Pearl
Black Lotus
8 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine

Sideboard:

3 Stony Silence
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Batterskull
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm pretty sure this list will get through the meta and unlike his other list, won't have troubles with creature decks.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I like that white trash list.  The only thing i'd suggest is moving some number of rips to the sb and adding in aether vials.  A vial @2 casts half your deck for free.  It also dodges chalice@2 which would wreck you.  I'd also suggest cutting some familiars for a 4th dryad (another reason rip is less important) and at least 3 on the vials.  Even with kitaki, a vial @2 cuts your mana investment by 1 every turn!  Oath (esp emrakul builds) look like a big problem for you, and the onlty spell they actually have to counter is warden.  With vials, you get a fast way to beat counters in oath and have an uncounterable way to remove oath.  You might also look at cages instead of RiP vs boath oath and dredge.  Also castable off your 9 non-white lands for half the price!

[xouman]

if oath is a problem, true believer is a solution. it also deals with gifts, intuition, tendrils (not big problems now), tgz and probably true name nemesis (i'm not sure about that)


PD: note that with 4 arbiters, SFM has to pay 2 in order to fetch the batterskull

[The Atog Lord]

Nemesis doesn't target the player. "As" abilities don't use the stack, and therefore, don't target.

[MaximumCDawg]

Is that true? 

(checks gatherer)

By golly, it is true!  What is it about targeting that makes it impossible to implement without using the stack, though?  Is there a reason why you can't have something that says, like, "As this enters the battlefield, destroy target creature."  Stopped by hexproof, can't be stifled, sort of interesting. 

[evouga]

Philosophically, the only reason to have a spell/ability target is so that your opponent knows what the spell/ability will do once it resolves, and can decide whether and how to respond to the spell/ability.

This is why only things that are on the stack (spells, activated and triggered abilities) have targets, and things that don't go on the stack, such as replacement effects, static abilities, etc, do not.

If they wanted to, they could get the functionality you want by phrasing the replacement effect, "As True-Name Nemesis enters the battlefield, choose a player without hexproof." But that's a bit silly IMO.

[The Atog Lord]

Because of this, it is interesting to note that Deathrite Shaman's ability is not actually a mana ability because it targets a land. Therefore, it would actually be stopped by Pithing Needle, and it can be countered by removing the targeted land in response.

[MaximumCDawg]

Philosophically, the only reason to have a spell/ability target is so that your opponent knows what the spell/ability will do once it resolves, and can decide whether and how to respond to the spell/ability.

This is why only things that are on the stack (spells, activated and triggered abilities) have targets, and things that don't go on the stack, such as replacement effects, static abilities, etc, do not.

If they wanted to, they could get the functionality you want by phrasing the replacement effect, "As True-Name Nemesis enters the battlefield, choose a player without hexproof." But that's a bit silly IMO.

Strange, yes, but with this wording I think TNN would actually have been a better card for Magic.  It would interact with Leyline of Sanctity, for example.

[Protoaddict]

TNN is designed not to interact, which seems highly intentional.
That being said I'm not sure how much more of a threat it poses to this list than any other creature based list in the format. Even mono white has answers for him, some of which have utility elsewhere.

One of the funnier ones: Holy Light. Also happens to be pretty baller against tokens. If you splash black you can use zealous persecution as well.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Well there were 2 GWB hate bear decks in the top 8 of Top Deck Games event today in NJ...One of the decks advanced to the top 4. Not sure how the event ended, but I'm pretty sure they were both packing some number of these guys...

[Guli]

Sounds very nice! I played with Spirit in Legacy and it is very good against Sneak Show Griselbrand. Also very good against all the Brainstorm and Ponder. But it also has applications against Elves, slows them down hard enough to find your out, and dredge. The card is very good with a Noble and Pridemage if you are racing.

In Vintage the card seems nice too, especially with Aven Mindcensor and Gaddock Teeg. You really want to take away their tutor capabilities on top of their draw capabilities. You also want to deny key spells with Gaddock. I can see Thoughtseize work as well in this context.

[StanleyAugust]

While Spirit in theory complements Gaddock well, I think they in fact compete for the same spot as they hit some of the same cards (most notably Jace and Gush) and most importantly, playing both severely hurts your Workshop matchup.

If you play all of Spirit, Gaddock, Aven, Revoker and Thalia maindeck, I have a feeling your Workshop game isn't very good.

I'm not yet totally convinced which card is better, Spirit or Gaddock. Brian DeMars stated that Spirit is way better, but I'm not so certain. Let's look at the pros and cons of each.

Spirit:

- Is reactive. Slows down a Jace already on the table.
- Stops Ancestral, Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, AK, LoA and slows down Griselbrand which isn't irrelevant.
- Easier to cast than Gaddock.
- 3/1 body is definitely better than 2/2 and is really important against Mud.

Gaddock:

- Is proactive. Doesn't do anything about a Jace already on the table.
- Stops FoW, Misdirection, Smokestack, Chalice of the Void (!), Engineered Explosives, Tezzeret and some more fringe cards.

I think it's close. Stopping FoW is sometimes a bit overrated and other than that, Gaddock actually doesn't do much against Blue. On the other hand, how much does Spirit actually do against Grixis for instance?

Gaddock's ability is a million times better against Mud, but Spirit's 3/1 body is way better. I think the verdict is still out.

[Guli]

I don't think Spirit competes with Gaddock, it is obvious the theme is not mana denial. Thalia is mana denial. So Spirit would compete with Thalia.

[tribet]

Gaddock and Thalia are both Legendary. Spirit isn't.

Thalia and Spirit both impact the early game massively. Gaddock is probably more midgame.

Thalia and Spirit are both above-average beaters: 1st Strike & 3Power. Gaddock is just a bear that gets blocked by... everything and when /if it matters is a very poor chumblocker.

[Guli]

What I am trying to explain is that Thalia is not a must for a deck to be competitive. There are enough options in the 1, 2 and 3 cc card pool (for creatures) that you can try all sorts of configurations.

When I look at a card like Spirit, I see a card that disrupts mulligan decisions. Some decks rely on those cantrips and a lot on tutoring. If you make the effort to disrupt their draw, I find it logical to disrupt the tutoring as well so they can not search or dig. These two effects stack up nicely, better than mana denial plus any of the two. Gaddock Teeg and Thoughtseize could provide for the additional disruption for what they would naturally draw or have in their hand.

[MaximumCDawg]

Another thought:  what about Food Chain / Griffin combo?  

Step 1 - Assemble favor + merrow
Step 2 - Mill to Food Chain, draw it.
Step 3 - If you already milled away Griffin, good.  If not, go do that.
Step 4 - Cast food chain, make a bagillion mana.  Next turn, mill to Emrakul and cast him ftw.

This still requires passing the turn before the win, and a big win condition package to ensure you can hit them in the right order - you need a Food Chain and a Griffin above your Emrakul.  Is there a way to make this faste

EDIT: WHOOPS!  This is supposed to be in the Karmetra's favor thread.  Can  mod correct my embarrassing mistake?

[Smmenen]

While Spirit in theory complements Gaddock well, I think they in fact compete for the same spot as they hit some of the same cards (most notably Jace and Gush) and most importantly, playing both severely hurts your Workshop matchup.

If you play all of Spirit, Gaddock, Aven, Revoker and Thalia maindeck, I have a feeling your Workshop game isn't very good.

I'm not yet totally convinced which card is better, Spirit or Gaddock. Brian DeMars stated that Spirit is way better, but I'm not so certain. Let's look at the pros and cons of each.

Spirit:

- Is reactive. Slows down a Jace already on the table.
- Stops Ancestral, Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, AK, LoA and slows down Griselbrand which isn't irrelevant.
- Easier to cast than Gaddock.
- 3/1 body is definitely better than 2/2 and is really important against Mud.

Those aren't the only pros though.  Spirit has lots of broken synergies like Mikokoro and many, many others. 

[Protoaddict]

What I am trying to explain is that Thalia is not a must for a deck to be competitive. There are enough options in the 1, 2 and 3 cc card pool (for creatures) that you can try all sorts of configurations.

When I look at a card like Spirit, I see a card that disrupts mulligan decisions. Some decks rely on those cantrips and a lot on tutoring. If you make the effort to disrupt their draw, I find it logical to disrupt the tutoring as well so they can not search or dig. These two effects stack up nicely, better than mana denial plus any of the two. Gaddock Teeg and Thoughtseize could provide for the additional disruption for what they would naturally draw or have in their hand.

Spirit and Gaddock both serve the roles of cutting you off answers you may be looking to cast in order to deal with your other threats like Thalia.

Spirit with Rest in peace means Dredge cannot dig for answers and must play off top decks
Spirit with Thalia means your opponent cannot try to cantrip into lands/moxes to get out from behind a sphere
Spirit with Arbiter means not only can you not draw cards to get answers, you also cannot tutor for them

In all cases what spirit does is enforce a soft lock (if not a lock itself) but turning off specific cards, much like teeg. Thalia is more general in that her effect globally hits many more cards, so i would say that it is more comparable to teeg / fits the same role. Spirit by and large does not affect the same cards teeg does however, with the exception of things like gush, but I think it probably hits many more relevant ones than teeg in the format (not to mention allowing mono color). Ideally you want all 3 out, but tere is nothing preventing that is there?

[Guli]

I think in Vintage you can better go for Thalia because the best draw spells are restricted and Thalia hits Gush hard (if they don't have a fastbond). If you do have open slots for more hatebears, you can run a couple spirits on top I guess.

In Legacy, there is Death and Taxes, a deck that goes for heavy mana denial. Thalia would be the better choice there. The list is tight and you don't want less than 3 Spirits.

So in Legacy, I have been running a Human deck focused on Board control and spell denial (without a mana denial theme). I went for Spirit and cut Thallia! Another factor to consider is the meta game, specifically True-Name Nemesis and all the answers that people run. If the meta is loaded with -1/-1 effects, it would not be a good idea to run too many X/1 creatures. (for example I cut thalia, and used canonist, teeg and spirit)

Thalia means nothing in Vintage if you don't supplement her with Stony Silence (or Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman, Sydri, Galvanic Genius). People will outplay you in no time, especially the new Human TPS decks (see Brian Kelly's deck lists). In that regard, I believe Thalia is no longer a card that just needs 4 slots, but much like Stoneforge needs 6-7 slots, Thalia needs even more to become adequately disruptive.

My guess is that people will run both, because they think they can. But I try to think my choices through and not just trow in disruptive creatures randomly in a deck. In Vintage, I don't see Spirit being all that hot honestly. I think it is probably better in Legacy. But like I said in my earlier posts, if Spirit is going to work, you probably want a deck that also cuts off further deck manipulation and disrupts the opponents hand.

[Soly]

I am going to blow your mind (And probably not in the good way) with the decklist I am about to present.  I would play it at Xtreme Games if I wasn't on a Magical Card Hiatus:

14 Plains
 1 Karakas  
 3 Nykthos
 1 Mikokoru, Center of the Sea
 1 Mox Pearl
 1 Sol Ring
 1 Black Lotus
22 Mana Sources

 4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
 3 Aven Mindscensor
 3 Weathered Wayfarer
 3 Kataki, War's Rage
13 Creatures

 2 Rest in Peace
 3 Suppression Field
 4 Leyline of Sanctity
 1 Moat
 2 Aura of Silence
 1 Ghostly Prison
 1 Endless Horizons
 1 Greater Auramancy
 1 Luminarch Ascension
 3 Soul Snare
19 Enchantments

 4 Enlightened Tutor
 1 Helm of Obediance
 1 Balance  
6 Misc. Spells

 4 Swords to Plowshares
 4 Abolish  
 2 Greater Auramancy
 2 Rest in Peace
 3 Stony Silence
15 Sideboard

[Stormanimagus]

@Soly - I'm not sure I see how you're beating turn 1 Lodestone Golems without having either:

1. More Moxen

or

2. Aether Vial

Just pointing out a potential weakness to that card.

-Storm

[Soly]

I never said the deck was good, hense the "blow your mind in a bad way".

It looks like a TON of fun though.

[MTGFan]

Mind = blown.

The only way my mind could have been more blown is if you managed to stuff Balance and Land Tax in there.

[Soly]

Mind = blown.

The only way my mind could have been more blown is if you managed to stuff Balance and Land Tax in there.

Balance is in there.

[Twaun007]

Mind = blown.

The only way my mind could have been more blown is if you managed to stuff Balance and Land Tax in there.

Balance is in there.

[msg67183]

I like the ideas u have here WhiteDragon, here is the White Trash list I have put together for my buddy since his other list was having problems with Creature decks:


White Trash!:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Relic Warder
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Dryad Militant
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth

3 Rest in Peace
3 Path to Exile

Mox Pearl
Black Lotus
8 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine

Sideboard:

3 Stony Silence
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Batterskull
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm pretty sure this list will get through the meta and unlike his other list, won't have troubles with creature decks.

Made some updates to the list, these changes should make it better overall against the meta:

Also have a sideboard plan, I was wondering if anyone thinks different cards should come out / go in?

White Trash!:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Relic Warder
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Dryad Militant
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth

3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Path to Exile

Mox Pearl
Black Lotus
8 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine

Sideboard:

3 Stony Silence
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Sideboard Plan:

Dredge:

-4 Leonin Relic Warder
-4 Leonin Arbiter
-3 Kataki War's Wage
-1 Phyrexian Revoker

+3 Stoneforge Mystic
+2 Rest in Peace
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Batterskull
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Path to Exile

Workshops:

-3 Grafdigger's Cage
-3 Judge's Familiar
-4 Leonin Arbiter

+3 Stoneforge Mystic
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Stony Silence
+1 Batterskull
+1 Path to Exile

Fish:

-2 Leonin Relic Warder
-3 Leonin Arbiter
-3 Grafdigger's Cage

+3 Stoneforge Mystic
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Batterskull
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Path to Exile

Oath:

-3 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Dryad Militant
-1 Kataki, War's Wage

+3 Stony Silence
+2 Ethersworn Canonist

Landstill:

-3 Grafdigger's Cage
-3 Path to Exile
-1 Kataki, War's Wage

+3 Stony Silence
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Rest in Peace

Grixis Control (with Bob):

-3 Kataki, War's Wage

+3 Stony Silence

Grixis Control (without Bob):

-3 Path to Exile

+3 Stony Silence

Bomberman:

-3 Grafdigger's Cage
-3 Dryad Militant

+3 Stony Silence
+2 Rest in Peace
+1 Ethersworn Canonist

[StanleyAugust]

Some thoughts:

You could probably use some more acceleration. Having only Mox Pearl and Black Lotus as accelerants isn't a lot. Sure you play Judge's Familiar as a decent one drop, but I would certainly consider more acceleration anyway.

No Stony Silence maindeck is a mistake in my opinion. I'm usually an advocate for Grafdigger's Cage maindeck but with 4 Arbiter, 2 Mindcensors and Dryad Militant maindeck, I'm not sure it's that important. I would probably try cutting the 3 Cage's for 3 Stony.

This leads me to the next point: Dryad Militant or Rest in Peace maindeck? There are pros and cons to both, and I must admit that I haven't tested Militant that much. How has it been working out?

Other than that, I think the list looks very solid.

[msg67183]

Some thoughts:

You could probably use some more acceleration. Having only Mox Pearl and Black Lotus as accelerants isn't a lot. Sure you play Judge's Familiar as a decent one drop, but I would certainly consider more acceleration anyway.

No Stony Silence maindeck is a mistake in my opinion. I'm usually an advocate for Grafdigger's Cage maindeck but with 4 Arbiter, 2 Mindcensors and Dryad Militant maindeck, I'm not sure it's that important. I would probably try cutting the 3 Cage's for 3 Stony.

This leads me to the next point: Dryad Militant or Rest in Peace maindeck? There are pros and cons to both, and I must admit that I haven't tested Militant that much. How has it been working out?

Other than that, I think the list looks very solid.

I have not played White Trash since mid 2011-2012 when I originally top 4'd with it, this list is my buddy's. I think the deck seems much better than the list I used to play, and that had Full Moxen, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt! This deck doesn't need that much Accel. You might not always have a turn one play, so what? The 2 drops are so good that it makes up for it. I'm liking the main deck Cages, as an out to Yawgmoth's Win, Tinker and Oath, as well as Dredge. Stony Silence was moved to the board because you only want it against the most broken decks, which don't make up too much of our meta. Thank you for your questions and other thoughts, that is why I posted the list and Sideboard Plan, to have a discussion about the deck, especially now that Spirit of the Labyrinth exists.