UB Ratstill

[fsecco]

I saw this decklist on TC Decks and started testing with it. I like the deck a lot. Pack Rat is very, very strong and can win games alone, with a fast clock, sometimes even a 3 turn clock. Ashiok also exceeded my expectations. There's a great number of creatures that get robbed by him and put to your side, even under Stanstill.

What do you think about it? I found it has a bad matchup against Oath, so it doesn't improve what is a bad matchup for UR Landstill. It also has less and clunkier creature removal (Hero's Downfall vs Lightning Bolt). Overall I like it though. I feel like it could use a 2nd Crucible of Worlds and a 3rd Jace, but don't know what to remove for it.

Creatures [3]
3 Pack Rat

Instants [17]
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Steel Sabotage
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Mental Misstep
2 Misdirection
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [3]
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Toxic Deluge

Enchantments [4]
4 Standstill

Planeswalkers [6]
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts [5]
1 Black Lotus
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

Lands [22]
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Energy Flux
1 Dismember
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Dimir Cutpurse
1 Nihil Spellbomb

[tito del monte]

I've been fascinated by this list as well, but not had a chance to test it yet. Ashiok and the Rat seem like a great way to keep threats coming after Standstill hits.

Shame about the removal - though you could try Disfigure as a cheap answer to annoying bears. How useful has the "destroy target planeswalker" part of Hero's Downfall been?

Could the second Misdirection be a cut for another Jace or Crucible?

I shall definitely give the list a try if I can before GP Paris. Looks so much fun!

[brianpk80]

Maybe a green splash for Abrupt Decay and Pernicious Deed could accomplish more than the Hero's Downfalls.  The Pack Rats, Tar Pit, and man lands should keep enemy Planeswalkers in check. 

[fsecco]

I like Hero's Downfall a LOT for it's destroying planeswalkers ability. The only problem is the cost. But I feel the deck is very weak against resolved planeswalkers. Since Mutavaults are not Factories and can't grow, it becomes kinda hard to kill planeswalkers by attacking. And since the deck doesn't have Lightning Bolts, Downfall is very important. People don't always realize this, but Bolts are creature AND planeswalker removal.

I though about going green for Decay, Deed and Deathrite, but the main strength of the deck is the basic manabase. Since the deck has a lot of colorless nonbasics already (Mutavault, Wasteland, LoA), having less colors is pretty important.

Also, tito del monte, I think the Misdirections are crucial. Not only for counterwars, but to protect your few creatures from removal. I even had a Bolt Misdirected from a Mutavault to an opposing Jace once.

Analysing the list I think the possible open slots are:
1 Pack Rat
1 Mana Drain (maybe)
2 Ashiok (I love him, but he could be replaced)
1 Mindbreak Trap

The last one is a metagame call. I'd keep it, unless you are really sure you won't be facing a lot of combo. Then you should move it to the sideboard. And I really like Mana Drain in this deck since it's easily converted into a Rat + Standstill early in the game.

Probably the "openest" slot in the deck is Ashiok. This could become 1 Crucible + 1 Jace. I'll test that.

So, I really don't know how to tweak the list (except sideboard). It's pretty solid the way it is.

[brianpk80]

Well, it's your playstyle that matters I suppose.  I would consider Vendilion Clique and the green splash before running Hero's Downfall.  I think I'd sooner splash red for Lightning Bolt itself than play that card because of its inefficiency and the fact that it seems dreadful against Workshop.  Thada Adel and the Cutpurses in the sideboard are interesting.  Good luck. 

[tito del monte]

Well, if you want to keep the deck two-colour and improve the removal suite, I wonder (tentatively) if Psionic Blast might actually be better than Hero's Downfall. Easier to cast, hits players, creatures and planewalkers - oh and pitches to FoW, that old chestnut!

[Grand Inquisitor]

If this deck really wants to play something before landstill and pack rats are really that good, why not four?  It's the perfect card to center a game plan on because you can never draw too many...you just discard them to other pack rats.

FWIW, Misdirection seems not worthwhile and I think most other traditional landstill lists have dropped it.

What is Liliana doing?  I think extra Jaces would be strictly better.

Hero's downfall isn't terrible, but it's clunky and probably tough to cast against stuff like BUG/Merfolk/Shops.  I think more EE or even something like Echoing Truth/Recoil would serve you better.

[fsecco]

As I said, this is a list copied from the net. I haven't fooled around with it yet in terms of deck building. I'll adress your questions one by one.

I like the idea of Psionic Blasts. Maybe they're better than the Hero's Downfall entirelly. Will test them.

I considered Clique, but I find the deck doesn't need this effect. I wouldn't put it there just for the sake of it and specially in the place of a removal.

The Pack Rats I really think the right number is 3. Since you draw a lot of cards in the deck, you always end up drawing one of them, and one is all you need. I wouldn't reduce to 2 though, since you need them soon. But 4 maybe is too much, specially since I wouldn't know what to take out for it.

Misdirection and Lilianas I would understand cutting. The thing is planeswalkers are really strong here. And Liliana kills creatures very well. Maybe 4 Jaces and 0 Lilianas is a way to go. I'll test it. Or maybe even 3 Jace 1 Crucible 0 Liliana. Liliana doesn't play that well with Rats. Maybe you're right.

Misdirection I don't know. The deck has almost no removal because it depends on counters a lot. I know most people go to Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce to win counter wars, but this deck is very light on mana. But maybe I'm biased because I once stole an opposing Ancestral Recall and never felt better about Misdirection.

Now, I think a 3-color Landstill sounds dreadfull no matter what. The manabase must be strong, since the deck packs few "colored" lands. If I wanted something from red or white I'd go with UW or UR versions. I don't think it's exactly a play style question, but I want to keep the deck UB, so I'll ignore suggestions of cards in other colors.

Feel free, however, to point out why this version is inferior to UW or UR.

So, maybe I'd do this:
-2 Hero's Downfall
+2 Psionic Blast

-2 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Jace TMS
+1 Crucible of Worlds

[vaughnbros]

I think the idea of putting pack rat into landstill has promise, but I don't really follow why doing that means you have to also play a bunch of suboptimal cards just because you are UB instead of UR/UW.  The UR/UW versions don't really play any other main deck non blue non artifact spells other than a 1 mana removal spell, dismember works wonderfully to fill this role.  I don't think ashiok or liliana fit well with what you want to do in landstill and by running them you are giving up space to cards that you really do need.  For example 4 Jaces and 4 Drains are a must in any landstill deck.  The cards are just too good in the deck to play any less than the maximum number.  Pack rat creates creature dominance for you so even though mutavault combos well with him, its unnecessary.  Compared with mishra's, mutavault is just strictly inferior, it doesn't block as a 3/3 making it die to the plethora of 2 power creatures in vintage, and it loses in a fight to lodestone golem.  Basic swamp, and cabal pit are both good lands to add to your mana base, I'd cut 1 sea and go to 23 lands.

Feel free, however, to point out why this version is inferior to UW or UR.

UR has lightning bolt (efficient creature removal), ingot chewer (efficient artifact removal), and REB (efficient blue hate).

[John Jones]

I feel as if you'll be tapping out a lot which is what a landstill deck can't do. When that happens it gives the opponent the best opportunity to resolve spells. Ie, if you're going against a doomsday deck and you tap out they will be able to beat you're 1-2 FOW. I don't understand the point of liliana in the deck. I think 2x counter/removal spells would be better in it's place.

The way I see it is that this is not a landstill deck. It is a deck with pack rat and standstill to regain parity. Therefore it will not follow the same deckbuilding constraints as landstill would. Going underthis assumption, I think this is how I would build the deck.

1. Cut standstill all together
2. Build around pack rat
3. Maximize internal synergies to gain card advantage
4. Be the beatdown and provide sufficient threats

4 Dark Confidant (To come back after pack rat makes you discard your hand, btw I dont think the rat has really good synergy w/ standstill)
1 Deep Analysis (synergy with pack rat, force pitch, synergy with loam, maybe cut after testing but it could potentially be really good)
1 Life from the Loam (synergy - btw claiming tech right now cause this card is the tits in BUG fish)
1 Vampiric Tutor (I think its needed, might honestly be better as a spellsnare/pierce/fluster/dismember)
1 Ancestral Recall (Assumed)
1 Brainstorm (Assumed)
1 Timewalk (Assumed)
-10-
3 Pack Rat (ehh... I wouldn't personally run this card in vintage but I like deck building constraints. It also provides a unique threat in that it if unanswered will inevitably win the game. So +3 threat density argubly this could easily become 2 truename 1 vclique)
3 Mental Misstep (3-4... you're going to be doing a lot of t1 deathrite/therapies so this is needed)
4 Force of Will (Assumed)
-20-
2 Misdirection (bumped this up to two for the savagery experienced by tom dixon... this is really good at yoinking recalls esp if you already blew one of them to force, a 2nd is completely unexpected. It's good at winning the force war, can stop lbolts to your creatures of interest, can redirect thoughtseizes, etc etc... test 2 then make cuts)
3 Cabal Therapy (I suppose this works with the overall theme of the deck but could be thoughtseize)
2 Snapcaster Mage (I like this in this type of deck and I think 2 is good)
4 Deathrite Shaman (assumed)
1 Hurkyls Recall (assumed, need this md to have a chacne aginst shops/tinker)
1 Demonic Tutor (late inclusion, but this is solid, might be better as a removal spell like trygon as its blue helps in shops/oath sometimes, flies, and is a body)
2 Dismember (needed might be a 4 of md)
-35-

3 Wasteland (I think 3 should be plenty i'm sure you can bump it up though)
1 Stripmine (assumed)
4 UBG Moxen & Black Lotus(assumed)
1 Bayou (I personally like having the ability to fetch black/green)
1 Forest (for deathrite and not losing to shops)
-45-
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacomb (gets basics)
-55-
4 Mutavault (maybe -1 this +1 waste... idk if this should even be in the deck maybe +2 misty, +1 Waste +1 cycleland/bazaar/horizon canopy)
1 Swamp (have plenty of blue, deathrites, nothing is heavy blue)
-60-

SB
4 Graffdiggers Cage (dredge, Oath)
2 Yixilid Jailer (dredge, fish)
2 Pithing Needle (dredge, planeswalkers/kuldotha/tezz)
2 Flusterstorm (Blue Control, Oath (most), Doomsday, Random Storm)
1 Hurkyls Recall (Shops, Tezz)
1 Dismember (Shops, Fish)
2 Natures Claim (Shops, Oath)
1 Metaslot (I personally think this would be either another natures claim/echoing truth for shops/oath/tinker/(dredge (et)) matchup)
 

So this deck is obviously not really like landstill it's actually more like bug fish but I think you get more out of your pack rat? maybe not? Idk it just seems bad to discard cards in a landstill based deck when the object of that game is to play like shops in a way and have so many cards and counterspells/removals spells available that it is inevitable that you will win the game with a factory or a jace. Pack rat forces you to play a creature for no reason, makes you run less EE's/deluge/counterspells by taking up space, and forces you to tap out at end of turn leaving you vulnerable to EOT cliques, that human guy no one really plays thtat top 8d that one tournament in bloomsburg, mindscensor which is like a 1-2 of in some decks, restoration angels, etc. eot guys w/f lash is what im getting at. You also lose pretty hard to a resolved deluge/EE on 0. Declare attacks response echoching truth seems bad cause they oyu're like ohh noo blow my counterspells wait ive been discarding... ohh noo they untap and I lose.... good thing no one really runs etruth but me.

You will need at least 24-25 lands in a traditional landstill deck. Idk what those guys are saying but 23 is way too low. Your turns should litreally be draw, play a land, pass. Counterspell/removal spell. Rinse repeat until you can safely cast standstill or have to cast standstill. Rinse repeat until beat down w/ factory or Fateseal with jace occurs. GG. If at anytime, the opponent has more cards than you... you're probably in a bad situation.

Idk good luck with the deck. It seems interesting but I think is strictly inferior to current landstill builds and doesn't really bring anything to the table that benefits the deck in a significant way. Ie, does nothing in the dredge matchup which is bad for landstill. It argubly helps against shops if you resolve it and still have 3 mana and can still deal with their threats and they don't have a smoke stack or kuldotha-->titan or revoker or needle or steel hellkite... like idk seems a little weak there. It doesn't help in the oath matchup as it's a creature that makes more creatures and it only marginally helps in fish type matches as merfok will just race, W/x decks will have all their paths/stps, R/x will have their bolts floating in their hand, and you will eventually be forced to tap out/or a good player will force you to tap out at  a really bad time.

[fsecco]

I think you guys should just play the deck. It plays different from tradicional landstill in the sense that it can be more agressive if it wants. But that's it. I win a lot with Jace's or Ashiok's ultimates, and Mutavault is strictly worse than Factory, but not here. It pumps the rats in a way that it's very easy to deal 10 damage per turn. If you're playing Pack Rats, Mutavaults are a must.

I agree on the Lilianas, they're not that good in there. But Pack Rats have an amazing synergy with Landstill. It's a very fast clock that will deny your opponent the luxury of not breaking Standstill. You can discard extra stuff to them (if Crucible is on you can discard lands easily) and they're kinda immune to spot removal.

As far as I understand, EE at 0 doesn't kill the Rat's tokens, since they're copies and thus have a CC of 2. Am I wrong?

On Ashiok, I still don't know about him. Every time I got to activate him 2-3 times, he was awesome (2 times digging, 1 time playing a creature). And his ultimate can win the game easily. I could cut him, no problem, but I'm sticking with him a little bit more for testing reasons.

Dark Confidant is kind of a bad idea, since the deck wins slowly sometimes. Could be tested though, since the card is so powerful.

I think the only great loss from this to UR is Ingot Chewer...

EDIT: as I said before, this deck is not my brew, I'm just trying it out.
The way I see it, this is probably built by an active Standard player, since there are a lot of Standard cards in it.

[fsecco]

Thada Adel and the Cutpurses in the sideboard are interesting.  Good luck. 

I think I don't know how to proper use the Cutpurses. Against what do you put them in?

[tito del monte]

So, I really liked the look of this deck (admittedly because I like off-beat card choices) and ran it at the GP Paris side event over the weekend. Fsecco helped me settle on the following list, which went 3-3 in the 50-something person event. More on match-ups and card choices after the list:

Land (x 23)
1 x Library of Alexandria
1 x Swamp
4 x Polluted Delta
1 x Creeping Tar Pit
4 x Wasteland
4 x Mutavault
4 x underground Sea
3 x Island
1 x Strip Mine

1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Black Lotus

4 x Force of Will
3 x Mana Drain
2 x Mental Misstep
2 x Spell Pierce
1 x Steel Sabotage
1 x Misdirection
1 x Flusterstorm

4 x Standstill

2 x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 x Jace, the Mindsculptor

3 x Pack Rat

1 x Engineered Explosives
1 x Crucible of Worlds
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Time Walk
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Toxic Deluge
1 x Echoing truth
2 x Psionic Blasts

Sideboard:
3 x Grafdigger's Cage
2 x Ravenous Trap
2 x Energy Flux
1 x Crucible of Worlds
1 x Hurkyl's Recall
1 x Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 x Toxic Deluge
1 x Dismember
1 x Vendillion Clique
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Nihil Spellbomb

Card choices:
For the maindeck, I decided I really needed to go up a land from the original list. With only 22 lands - and 10 of them colourless - I was getting screwed too easily, which just didn't make any sense to me. I stuck in a basic swamp and felt much more comfortable with the land base overall, hitting land drops more regularly and giving myself resilience against opposing wastelands.

For the same reasons, I cut all the double black cards - namely Lilliana of the Veil and Hero's Downfall. The deck definitely doesn't like to see big threats landed quickly (be it a fattie, planeswalker or Vault-key) and the most versatile answer I could come up with for that was to compensate with an Echoing Truth main, alongside the two Psionic Blasts, which were actually pretty decent all day long.

Ashiok was a lot of fun to play with - and certainly, given the amount of creatures in the format right now, not unplayable. I particularly enjoyed stealing a Spirit of the Labyrinth from a White Trash player and Cliquing him on his draw step, thanks to Ashiok, so can't complain. Probably a bit cute, but honestly, I just enjoyed playing the card.

Pack Rat was immensely satisfying to play and really beats face quickly, particularly with Mutavaults in play. I didn't go wild discarding stuff to the Rat, but it can be a pretty quick clock and very difficult to remove. I didn't get to play any Workshop matchups, but he's definitely decent here if you can land him and keep making beaters/blockers whilst ignoring their spheres. Would play again!

I'm unsure of the value of Crucible, as I didn't see it enough and didn't get to play to Workshops. It probably belongs, but maybe the second in the side could be something else.

Sideboard: An attempt to hedge against some of the horrendous match-ups like Oath and Dredge. I wonder if a pair of Thoughtseize might be nice to bring in on the play agains very quick combo-ish decks like Oath and Turbo-Tezz builds.

Some notes on matchups:
I lost to Merfolk, some weird Hulk-Flash brew and Burning Oath. Merfolk was a very tough match-up, as with Caverns and the possibility of Mutavault, it's hard to create a situation where you can advantageously land a Standstill. Caverns makes tons of your cards dead. And damn, the deck can beat you down pretty fast. I made a few mis-plays certainly, but it still felt like a tricky match-up.

The two combo decks really both should have been beaten, but due to inexperience against them, I countered the wrong the stuff - or rather sat on counters, when I should have been countering threats I didn't evaluate properly. Lesson learned.

Sooo.... I think the deck is better than the 3-3 I played it too and certainly a lot of fun to pilot. I have never played Landstill before, so can't tell you how this compares to UR and UW builds, but can say, that as someone who has played aggro-control mostly, I enjoyed the ability to go for the throat now and again in this deck, switching up roles by landing a Pack Rat. I'm no expert deck-builder, so I'm sure the list can be greatly improved - and I wonder if overall my removal deals me too much damage. With creatures swarming all over the metagame, I wonder if something like Jace, Architect of Thought now has a merit as 1-one in some lists?

Anyway, had a fantastic time playing Vintage as always at BoM events. The European Vintage guys are always great to hang out with and you always see tons of friendly faces. Makes a big difference - and it definitely an incentive to travel to these things. Thanks to Fsecco for help tuning my list, too. Give it a whirl - it honestly doesn't suck!

[fsecco]

Nice that you played the deck!

I think that combo decks, especially Oath, are your worst matchups by far. And I really don't know how to adress that. Spell Snare? EE?

But Merfolks should be a hard match. You take out a few counters, add creature removal and a 2nd Crucible from the side. Ashiok is pretty big too if it can survive 1 turn: taking a Lord from them, with Mutavault, should help stopping the combo a LOT. Toxic Deluge, EE, Ashiok and Pack Rats should be able to handle Merfolks. SHOULD hehe. Also, maybe a second Engineered Explosives on the side could be good (against both matchups).

I don't know why you added a basic swamp if you were gonna take all the double black cards out. Probably an island would be better. But I never got mana screwed with the deck, since it has a very low casting cost over all. I'd take that land out for a spell hehe.

What about your wins? What were them against?

[tito del monte]

I admittedly added the swamp before I ditched the double-black cards, but I was still happy to fetch for basics - France always seems to re-unite a pretty aggro meta. I mean, BUG Fish won the last two BoMs. And in this (albeit small) tournament, I ended up beating BUG Fish x2 and a White Trash list.

Ashiok was OK v Merfolk - but I was too far behind when I got him online in the deciding game. Still, I've ever played against Merfolk in any format, so I'm happy to concede I could have almost certainly played the match-up better.

I really couldn't get anywhere with the original list featuring so much black. I have no idea how you're doing it!

[fsecco]

I don't like that much black too. Single black cards are ok, but double black are a problem. The issue with having one Swamp in the deck is that I would never ever want it in my initial hand. The deck has many colorless lands, and a Swamp in the initial hand is a just like a colorless land. Increasing the odds that I'd have to mulligan with because of a single Swamp feels terrible to me.

That's the reason I'd cut the 2 Hero's Downfall. Although I'd think more about the Lilianas because she's awesome and can lock opponents out of the game, specially vs aggro (after a board swipe or if you manage to contain the beatdown enough to have a Liliana and a Jace online, your aggro opponent normally would have few, or none, cards in hand).

That's when Crucible shines, also. I like how Liliana "combos" with Crucible for extreme advantage. Sure, you have to resolve both and be in a stale board state, but it happens quite a lot with Landstill.

I think the only changes to the MD I'd do if I had to play the deck today would be:
-2 Hero's Downfall
+2 Psionic Blast

-1 Mindbreak Trap (i don't like this MD)
+1 Spell Pierce/Crucible/Jace

[WhiteLotus]

I toyed around with your list and was quite surprised. It's very good at what it does and while no reliant on the rat, it is nice to be able to schift gears for a "quick win" (by landstill standards)
Although I think the deck needs a few tweaks it is pretty strong.

Here is how I chose to build it:

4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Library of Alexandria

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Pack Rat

4 Standstill

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Steel Sabotage
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Misdirection

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Toxic Deluge

SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Steel Sabotage
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap

You've got to remember that this is a Landstill deck before a pack rat deck so it needs 4 jaces and 4 mana drains and doesn't want Time walk, subpar pwalkers or hero's downfall
The deck also doesn't want 2 black manas in it's mana costs, two blue are already not always a given to cast your drain or jace.
Psionic blast is pretty expensive in mana, Dismember seems more efficient and can take care of bigger creatures like fat goyfs, Kuldotha or hellkite. Although psionic blast can get rid of Pwalkers or finish an almost dead opponent.

[fsecco]

I agree with you WhiteLotus, except on the Dismembers. The thing is without Hero's Downfall/Psionic Blast, you can't deal with a resolver planeswalker. I know Pack Rat is supposed to do that, but it's not that simple. I'd go with at least 1 Dismember + 1 Psionic Blast (but I don't like running 1-of's in this deck...)

About the Drains, I felt I always had trouble having 2 blue mana to cast them early. That's why the extra Misdirection/Spell Pierce/whatever in it's place. That said, 4 Mana Drain is never a problem if you manage to have the blues.

So, since you cut almost all black from the deck, do you feel the need to run 1 Swamp? How is it working for you?

About the 4 Jaces x 3 Jace/1 Ashiok: no problem with that at all. I just feel that Ashiok, if dropped early, is really powerful. Protect him for 1 turn and he can protect himself almost forever.

[WhiteLotus]

I agree with you WhiteLotus, except on the Dismembers. The thing is without Hero's Downfall/Psionic Blast, you can't deal with a resolver planeswalker. I know Pack Rat is supposed to do that, but it's not that simple. I'd go with at least 1 Dismember + 1 Psionic Blast (but I don't like running 1-of's in this deck...)

About the Drains, I felt I always had trouble having 2 blue mana to cast them early. That's why the extra Misdirection/Spell Pierce/whatever in it's place. That said, 4 Mana Drain is never a problem if you manage to have the blues.

So, since you cut almost all black from the deck, do you feel the need to run 1 Swamp? How is it working for you?

About the 4 Jaces x 3 Jace/1 Ashiok: no problem with that at all. I just feel that Ashiok, if dropped early, is really powerful. Protect him for 1 turn and he can protect himself almost forever.

I have not played the deck extensively but the swamp can help to pay for the rat's ability throught wasteland. Although it does sometimes feel out of place like when you want that second blue mana for instance.
Mana drain is sometimes hard to cast but it's the only counter that always requires mana and it just goes so well with jace & crucible.

Idk about ashiok I guess I'm just not confortable with it replacing a jace.

[fsecco]

The difference between Ashiok and Jace is that Ashiok can, alone, live in a world of creatures. Jace can't deal with multiple creatures over a few turns. Also, Ashiok drops 1 turn earlier than Jace. Since the main goal of the deck is to slip a threat and then Standstill, it comes very good at that. I have, a few times, Mana Drain'ed on turn 1 to drop Ashiok and Standstill on turn two. Very nice.

About the swamp, I'm always afraid of a random hand with no blue lands because of the Swamp. The deck already packs a lot of colorless lands. I tend to maximize on Islands.

Anyway, I like your list. My main problem with it isn't the lack of Ashiok, that's just play style. But I feel that the lack of planeswalker removal is something to worry about.

[vaughnbros]

About the swamp, I'm always afraid of a random hand with no blue lands because of the Swamp. The deck already packs a lot of colorless lands. I tend to maximize on Islands.

I'm not sure you should be too overly concerned with hurting your ability to get double blue by playing a swamp.  I mean drains and Jaces when you don't have double blue always make good Force fodder.  Here is the mana base that I've used to great success with traditional landstill (switched from red to black):

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Cabal Pit
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory (you can sub for mutavaults)

Anyway, I like your list. My main problem with it isn't the lack of Ashiok, that's just play style. But I feel that the lack of planeswalker removal is something to worry about.

I'd suggest more Creeping tar pits if planeswalkers are an issue for you since 3 damage unblockable and unaffected by sorcery speed creature removal makes them very efficient at killing walkers.  They are also lands, which are always great with standstill.  I don't think you really want to play a 3 mana answer to a resolved walker since after they are resolved they've already generated card advantage.  Basically every time you play psionic blast or heroe's downfall on a walker you're opponent has gained some ground on you.

[fsecco]

Anyway, I like your list. My main problem with it isn't the lack of Ashiok, that's just play style. But I feel that the lack of planeswalker removal is something to worry about.

I'd suggest more Creeping tar pits if planeswalkers are an issue for you since 3 damage unblockable and unaffected by sorcery speed creature removal makes them very efficient at killing walkers.  They are also lands, which are always great with standstill.  I don't think you really want to play a 3 mana answer to a resolved walker since after they are resolved they've already generated card advantage.  Basically every time you play psionic blast or heroe's downfall on a walker you're opponent has gained some ground on you.

I really don't agree with this logic. If you think like that you're never gonna play a removal spell ever again. Lightning Bolt, in UR Landstill, serves a LOT to take out opposing planeswalkers (and creatures, of course). I know, it only costs R, but that's the thing I'm asking since the first post: how can this deck compare well to UR Landstill?

Anyway, the Creeping Tar Pit is a good idea indeed, but it is more mana intensive than Psionic Blast, since it "costs" 4 mana and is a sorcery.

Oh, and thanks for the manabase suggestion!

[vaughnbros]

Anyway, I like your list. My main problem with it isn't the lack of Ashiok, that's just play style. But I feel that the lack of planeswalker removal is something to worry about.

I'd suggest more Creeping tar pits if planeswalkers are an issue for you since 3 damage unblockable and unaffected by sorcery speed creature removal makes them very efficient at killing walkers.  They are also lands, which are always great with standstill.  I don't think you really want to play a 3 mana answer to a resolved walker since after they are resolved they've already generated card advantage.  Basically every time you play psionic blast or heroe's downfall on a walker you're opponent has gained some ground on you.

I really don't agree with this logic. If you think like that you're never gonna play a removal spell ever again. Lightning Bolt, in UR Landstill, serves a LOT to take out opposing planeswalkers (and creatures, of course). I know, it only costs R, but that's the thing I'm asking since the first post: how can this deck compare well to UR Landstill?

Correct, I won't ever play a 3 mana removal spell that can only ever 1 for 1 my opponent.  3 mana and taking 2 damage is not really even comparable to 1 mana, so I don't think that you should be comparing lightning bolt and psionic blast.  Lightning bolts main purpose in landstill is to deal with early lodestones, thalias, and other creatures to set up an early standstill.  At 3 mana psionic blast and hero's downfall can't serve this primary purpose.  Lightning bolt hitting planeswalkers is really more of a bonus of the card then the reason you play it.  So to the question how can this deck compare to UR without lightning bolt?  Dismember is great removal spells to achieve the primary use of lighting bolt in UR.  It has a couple of bonuses when compared to bolt:
1. Being able to take down larger tarmogoyfs, forgemasters, hellkites, and other creatures that are usually out of lightning bolts kill range.
2. Dodging chalice of the void at 1 and mental misstep.  Neither of which is negligible.

Anyway, the Creeping Tar Pit is a good idea indeed, but it is more mana intensive than Psionic Blast, since it "costs" 4 mana and is a sorcery.

The comparison of Psionic blast to tar pit can be boiled down to a simple question.  Would you rather pay 1 more mana or 1 more card and 2 more life?  I don't think the sorcery speed is that big of a deal since you can't exactly pass the turn to an active planeswalker and if you are casting it EoT you were probably better off having a counterspell in hand.

Oh, and thanks for the manabase suggestion!

You're welcome hope it helps.

[WhiteLotus]

Cabal pit seems really nice with crucible, like an improved darkblast.

Do you think creeping tar pit is good in the deck? I mean it etb tapped and it costs a lot of mana, when often you don't want to be tapping your colored mana producing lands. Faerie conclave doesn't see much play.

[fsecco]

I liked the idea of Cabal Pit also. And I don't like Creeping Tar Pit that much. It comes into play tapped, which is a bummer, and I almost never use it. It can break parity, and can kill planeswalkers, though. So I keep it in to test it more.

[vaughnbros]

Do you think creeping tar pit is good in the deck? I mean it etb tapped and it costs a lot of mana, when often you don't want to be tapping your colored mana producing lands. Faerie conclave doesn't see much play.

I liked the idea of Cabal Pit also. And I don't like Creeping Tar Pit that much. It comes into play tapped, which is a bummer, and I almost never use it. It can break parity, and can kill planeswalkers, though. So I keep it in to test it more.

Conclave is a singleton in most UR lists because you can usually find at least 1 turn where playing a tapped land doesnt hurt you.  Creeping tar pit is almost a strict upgrade from conclave since it adds black mana, has 1 more power, and unblockable is usually better than flying, except for the rare situations when you want to block a clique or delver.  Since it functions like an underground sea after the first turn you play it, even if its only rarely used as a man land I don't see a major problem with it as a singleton, when the number goes to 2 or 3 the drawback on it becomes much more relevant.  Personally I use my man lands a lot when I'm playing landstill so the more I can squeeze in the better.

[josh_ae]

I saw this list floating around online and decided to give it a go for my local Vintage event I run at my store. I ran this list:

3 Pack Rat
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Standstill
1 Black Lotus
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
2 Misdirection
2 Psionic Blast
2 Spell Snare
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Mutavault
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dismember
2 Energy Flux
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

We ran 5 rounds with 21 players.

Round 1 (Griselbrand Oath, 2-1)
G1: I keep a solid hand on the play with good counter magic and a Standstill, then proceed to flood out hard seeing 11 lands and very few spells despite drawing 3 extra cards and he casually Vault Keys me.
G2: I mull to six and lead with turn 1 Jace off a Lotus on the play, the game goes pretty long with me countering anything relevant that he plays and eventually beating him to death with two Pack Rats and a Mutavault.
G3: Interesting game, we both keep sevens and throw counterspells at eachother, he eventually manages to resolve a Show and Tell for Griselbrand but is low on life from Pack Rat attacks and can't draw. I Psionic Blast him to 3 during his end step and untap to play Jace and bounce his Griselbrand and attack for the win.

Round 2 (MUD 1-2)
G1: I keep a land light hand with 2 Underground Seas and decent spell selection. In the early turns he Wastelands me twice and I never manage to find another source of mana to crawl back out and die to a Lodestone Golem.
G2: On the play I lead with Lotus into Energy Flux, he conceeds a few turns later.
G3: He leads by trying to lock a turn one Trinisphere which I Force. We fight for a while and I end up a mana short every turn I try to cast Energy Flux and end up dead with a full grip and very little to do about it.

Round 3 (Burning Oath 2-0)
G1: We play casually for a few turns until I resolve a Standstill, he decides it is time to go for it and breaks my Standstill while I'm on 7 with a Library, so I have 11 cards in hand to fight with. Three Force of Wills was enough to win the fight and he loses to Pack Rats a few turns later.
G2: Similiar to game one, a big counterspell fight around turn 5 and he loses the fight and dies to Mutavault attacking with Pack Rat.

Round 4 (MUD 2-0)
G1: He thought he had kept a Workshop hand and didn't and ended up short on mana which wasn't helped by Misstep on his Sol Ring and Wasteland on his Ancient Tomb. Countermagic kept him out of the game while Pack Rat and Mutavault brought it home.
G2: He mulls to 4 and I keep with double Force and Pack Rat, he never really got to play.

Round 5 I intentionally draw with the guy who ended up winning the tournament who was playing BUG Fish

So I go 3-1-1 into the Top 8. In the Top 8 I played against my loss from the Swiss rounds and had severe issues with drawing mana sources. We had a really great game where I stole his Karn with Ashiok and started animating his Moxen but I end up losing anyway. I think in two games I drew six lands total.

My opinions on the deck so far:
The deck is very strong, Pack Rat is super aggressive and I was never sad to be playing it as my win condition.
The countermagic package is pretty solid and I felt it reliable outside of game one against MUD where I have several dead cards. The two Misdirections were wonderful in my matches against Oath.
Ashiok was too cute, I wanted something better every time I saw here. I didn't play against Fish or any of the more creature heavy decks in our meta so she may be better than I've been able to see. I spent the tournament wishing she were a Jace, or a second Crucible. Just something better.
Psionic Blast put in great work, it was much easier to cast than Hero's Downfall and did everything I wanted it to do. I killed creatures and planeswalkers as well as using it to pressure life totals. I still feel like there has to be a better card.

I enjoyed playing this deck a lot and will certainly be playing it again with some minor tweeks. Currently testing cutting Ashiok for a third Jace and a second Crucible. I really want a  better card in place of Psionic Blast but can't think of one without adding a third color and stretching the mana base too thin.

Thanks for reading my first long post on TMD and please leave any feedback or suggestions. I hope more people discover the joy of beating people with Pack Rat in Vintage.

[fsecco]

Nice report, man. The deck went better than I expected against Oath.

I also feel Ashiok can be cut for a 3rd Jace and a Crucible/Mana Drain/Dismember/Liliana.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Prophetic bolt > Psy blast?

I know it costs 2 more, but it is on color and I don't see a big struggle to get to 5 mana over 3.  It has no drawback and also gives you impulse.  maybe too pricey, but it's a thought.

[wiley]

Prophetic bolt > Psy blast?

I know it costs 2 more, but it is on color and I don't see a big struggle to get to 5 mana over 3.  It has no drawback and also gives you impulse.  maybe too pricey, but it's a thought.

It isn't on color as it requires red, and costing 2 more is a big deal, considering you might need to protect it with drain or be trying to do multiple things on your turn (like activating your man lands).

Josh, my recollection of our match (your r3) is close to yours except that our counter wars happened on turn 2 both games.  That and pack rat never made a copy of itself, the most it got to was grey ogre status when you activated a mutivault.  It was a feature match so there is a video file floating around somewhere (Millsy said he was recording it to the laptop as well as streaming) so eventually we can get a better idea of what happened.

Ashioks should be 1 more creeping tar pit and 1 more psyblast in my opinion.  Otherwise this seems like a solid landstill deck.