Topic: DRS BUG - Creature Mix

[Grand Inquisitor]

I've been following this archetype pretty closely since it's (i think) debut here:

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1752

The BUG lists that have made top 8 since then have routinely gone with the full compliment of Deathrite Shamans and Dark Confidants and either three or four Snapcaster Mages.  Let's take as a given these 11 slots:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
3x Snapcaster Mage

Kurz's list has the other creatures:
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Trygon Predator
1x Snapcaster Mage

...these 'second tier' creatures give him a critter footprint of 16.

Since then a variety of other configurations and additional creatures have been used in successful lists:
Tarmogoyf
Vendillion Clique
True-Name Nemesis
Edric, Spymaster of Tress
*Green Sun's Zenith, often with Dryad Arbor

When looking at a given list as a whole, there seem to be two general strategies that pilots are looking for:
- more tempo-based land denial + aggro, following Kurz's original tactics
- more of a 'big blue' control strategy that looks to build advantage and with less emphasis on mana denial

A good example of the latter is Blasi's winning list here:
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1844

Like the above, these lists are distinguished by some of the following:
- More acceleration, less null rod & fewer wastelands
- 'harder' counters often of the 2cc variety
- Smaller creature footprint
- Jace

Either of these approaches may be appropriate given local meta considerations.  I'm not interested in a debate on which strategy is more appropriate for the BUG shell.  However, I would like to hear folks' thoughts on:

(1) Depending on whether you go tempo or control, which creatures benefit each strategy most?
(2) What is the interrelationship between the 'second tier' creatures both with each other (eg, Trygon + Goyf vs. TrueNameNemesis) and with the base 11 (Bob, DRS, Snap)?
(3) How does creature footprint relate to which 2nd tier works best and what you can do with residual slots?

[Soly]

Mike Hajduk (Quicksilvervii) And I both played a "BUG Midrange" Deck at the NYSE.   It had a 3x Snapcaster, 2x Trygon, 3x Deathrite, 4x Bob, 2x Vendilion Clique with 3x Jace.   The deck failed for me, but Mike was one win away from Top8.   Maybe he can see this and write about his experience, but overall I *HATE* That the deck just relied on Dark Confidant too heavily to put cards in it's hands.

[Grand Inquisitor]

deck just relied on Dark Confidant too heavily to put cards in it's hands.

That's interesting.  I found that the backup plans of either Ancestral+Snap or JTMS or Edric were pretty effective.  I also tested Unearth which was usually good and sometimes broken.

More often I found the problem with the lists were (1) messy draws where you drew mana/creatures/counters in the wrong proportions or (2) the inability to counter/overcome strong opposing openings.

The creature mix doesn't really seem to address (2) unless you can get Clique online fast enough.

[serracollector]

I really like bug but i been trying more land and tempo disruption testing cards like sinkhole and recoil and temporal spring. all three are really good. temporal acts as a time walk most times and recoil and sinkhole both help you get ahead and fuel dr shaman.

[AmbivalentDuck]

My experience with Edric is that he's almost unbeatable after he's drawn you 2-3 cards. The trick is resolving him in the first place and defending him through that first attack to let you pull ahead. He's best as part of a GSZ package along with Ooze/Trygon/Ulvenwald Tracker. Tracker often gets overlooked even though it amounts to repeatable, free-ish removal as long as you have a Trygon out. It also lets any 2/2 (Edric/Ooze/etc) kill off your opponent's Deathrite Shamans.

It's also not clear to me if we shouldn't be a bit more Legacy and run a mix of Jace and Liliana.

[vaughnbros]

(1) Depending on whether you go tempo or control, which creatures benefit each strategy most?

I think you want cards that are able to play well both in the tempo and control situations.  Bob, and Deathrite are both capable of playing well in both roles.  I think Vendilion Clique also fits very well into both roles since its a 3/1 flier with disruptive ability.  Outside of these three though I can't think of a creature in BUG colors that plays both roles well.  As such for the remaining slots you have to choose creatures more focused on tempo or control to keep the power level of cards high enough.

(2) What is the interrelationship between the 'second tier' creatures both with each other (eg, Trygon + Goyf vs. TrueNameNemesis) and with the base 11 (Bob, DRS, Snap)?

Personally I don't think Snap belongs in the same category as DRS and bob.  Although he is well suited for the control role, snap is slow typically being 3+ mana, and you are only getting a vanilla 2/1 out of the deal.  As such he is quite poor compared to other options when you are attempting to tempo your opponent.

The second tier creatures need to support the core of DRS and bob in whichever role the deck builder wants to focus on.  Refering the list that won BoM, he seemed to focus on the control route with complimentary creatures of Edric, Ooze, Snapcaster, and Clique.  Focusing on the aggro route you may want to go with TNN, Goyf, Noble Hierarch, and other creatures that are strong in beatdown strategies.

(3) How does creature footprint relate to which 2nd tier works best and what you can do with residual slots?

The magic number for creatures in these BUG builds seems to be somewhere around 15.  This seems to allow enough space to play ample Forces, Decays, Missteps, other disruption spells, as well as restricted cards.

[boggyb]

How good is Snuff Out? Seriously, I don't really get it. Certainly not 4 of them. How many can you reasonably cast in one game? 2 at most? And it seems only good vs Lodestone and Goyf, which is not played very much nowadays. If Lodestone's your only target, I'd think there would be other, broader cards you'd want instead.

[i_b_TRUE]

So I just got into Vintage, i started with RUG Delver, but it felt a little underpowered compared to some other blue aggro decks (as i lost to Dark confidant a lot by my opponent getting so far ahead) BG is my go to usually and i feel like U is a necessity in Vintage so i decided on BUG. I wondered why no one really plays Tarmogoyf in their BUG lists but instead play Scavenging Ooze, TNN package instead and is Edric good? Here is my current list, i would appreciate feedback and some advice on match ups or changes and why Ooze and TNN are in more decks than goyf... thanks guys!

x4 DRS
x4 BOB
x1 Ooze
x3 Snapcaster
x1 TNN
X2 Trygon Predator
x1 Clique
x1 Black Lotus
x1 Mox Emerald
x1 Mox Jet
x1 Mox Sapphire
x1 Recall
x1 Brainstorm
x1 Flusterstorm
x3 Mental Misstep
x2 Spell Pierce
x1 Steel Sabotage
x1 Vampiric Tutor
x4 Abrupt Decay
x1 Demonic Tutor
x1 Null Rod
x1 Time Walk
x1 Jace, the mind sculptor
x4 Force of will
x1 Bayou
x2 Misty rainforest
x3 Polluted delta
x1 Strip Mine
x2 Tropical island
x3 Underground sea
x2 Verdant catacombs
x4 Wasteland

SB:
x1 Flusterstorm
x3 Grafdiggers cage
x2 Nature's claim
x1 Steell sabotage
x2 Surgical extraction
x1 Hurkyls recall
x1 Null rod
x1 Yixlid jailer
x2 Dismember
x1 Energy flux

[kwis]

Lotus and Jace might be the two worst cards in your deck, tbh, and I'd find room for 2, or at least 1, more null rod.

[jamestosetti]

I remember testing the list after I saw it place in a BOM. I can't remember when it was, but it was when the deck was fairly new. I think your link shows it at around a year old, but for some reason I thought it was a few years old. I played it enough to understand what its strategy is, but I was more interested in playing TPS then. Because I was typically a storm player the deck felt super awkward, but fairly effective. I recently started playing vintage in my spare time again, and I think this is the deck I am going to be working on. I have come to the conclusion that MUD is still pretty much the best, gush decks of any form are very good, and then the vault key combos are still very good. If I were to rank decks by effectiveness today, I think I would put Mud at the top followed by Rug Delver.

I have been testing a BRUG list that splashes a few lightning bolts. I saw that the decks did well, and were a spin off the original lists, so I started playing it. After testing it out, I think this is the deck I will probably be working with the most provided I can improve my MUD matches. I am not fond of using Jace in this deck. I feel this deck is all about mana denial. I haven't had the chance to test against gush decks yet with this one, but I have the feeling I am going to want two spell pierces in the main deck. I know how effective ancient grudge in the main deck is for delver, so I added one of those, and it is really good. I've also put in fire/ice, but haven't drawn it yet. I am currently only using two snapcasters, 1 ooze, and the usual creatures. I am going to experiment with a few different angles over the next few weeks or so, but I think this deck is really strategy based, so I enjoy playing it.

[DaveKap]

In a very heavy Shops and Oath metagame (with Dredge and Delver/Blue Control playing a supporting role), I've put together BUG Delver. Searching deck histories, there has been little to no attempt at this.

Delver, Deathrite Shaman and Trygon Predator are three of the best cards to beat shops. Dark Confidant and Jace get replaced with Preordains, Gush and Treasure Cruise. It doesn't have the best combo or blue control matchup, which is fine for me.

THREATS - 13
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Trygon Predator

DIG - 14
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Gush
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Time Walk
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Vampiric Tutor

UTILITY - 7
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Nature's Claim
1 Steel Sabotage

COUNTER - 9
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Snare

MANA - 18
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine

SIDEBOARD - 15
1 Annul
1 Dismember
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Mental Misstep
1 Nature's Claim
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Yixlid Jailer

Potentials:
4th Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, TNN, Vendilion Clique, Notion Thief, Darkblast, Golgari Charm, Umezawa's Jitte, Snuff Out, Wasteland, Null Rod

[xouman]

I like a lot confidant vs shops. It sucks against delvers depending on your plan, unless you pack sweepers. It's awful against oath, but most creatures also are.

Ah, yes, confidant and treasure cruise do not belong to the same deck. Sorry. So what about sylvan library? Life from the loam also fuels the grave for TC.

Trygon x4 feels a bit overkill, but if you expect >50% between oath and mud, go for it.

[JarofFortune]

I have tried Bug Delver, and it does have access to very powerful cards. However, it does have a problem with Lodestone Golem, especially game one. By losing bolt it also becomes very weak to Jace. If you've found a way to deal with that(the 4 trygons? I never tried it, how is it for you?), that is an excellent accomplishment.

It sucks against delvers depending on your plan, unless you pack sweepers.

Confidant is much stronger against Delver than people seem to think. It will run away with the game if you can protect it.

Ah, yes, confidant and treasure cruise do not belong to the same deck. Sorry.

Cruise is just a 3 of. That is not a lot. I don't really see any problem.

So what about sylvan library? Life from the loam also fuels the grave for TC.

Life from the loam is strong, especially vs shops, but it means adding wastelands. This isn't necessarily wrong, but it will take up space. Sylvan library might not be bad, but it is tempo negative, unlike Confidant.

[xouman]

If confidant flips a TC, and for example a fow, you are at 7. I have been killed by confidants in decks with more than one top and the playset of trinkets, without playing robot. What confidant gives, confidant takes away. In a good day confidant can stay untapped to block pyromancers while digging for answers, on a bad day delvers get over him while he bolts you all the time.

Loam shines with wastelands, but even after a couple of fetchlands it's great. It slows drs in some ways, but makes it way better in the long run. Also empowers TCs, tarmos...

[JarofFortune]

If confidant flips a TC, and for example a fow, you are at 7.

That's a very, very big if. you only run three cruise, and that is a very specific sequence of cards. I tested Bug for a while pre cruise, with 4 fow 4 gush and 4 bob, it was rarely a problem.

I have been killed by confidants in decks with more than one top and the playset of trinkets, without playing robot. What confidant gives, confidant takes away. In a good day confidant can stay untapped to block pyromancers while digging for answers, on a bad day delvers get over him while he bolts you all the time.

In that bad day scenario, if they're bolting your face instead of Bob then there is a very good chance bob will draw you into abrupt decay, the precise reason to run him.

[DaveKap]

I tried to make Confidant work, but the spell count for Delver falls too low and I like Delver > Confidant. Sylvan seems okay against Oath and Blue control, but I'd rather just have another Gush or Cruise. Trygon is surprisingly decent against Delver and really only gets boarded out against Combo.

[zeus-online]

.

[DaveKap]

Consult does seem good.

[jamestosetti]

The archetype is very good, and I was excited to pick it back up again a while ago. However, it was difficult to implement the mana denial plan in a Gush meta game. That was basically what I liked about the deck, so when my opponents nullified my Wasteland with Gush, time after time, I decided to try something else. I'm probably not the one to ask about many decks though. I play Tendrils of Agony, or sligh style decks whenever possible.

[youhavenogame]

@DaveKap:
Interesting take on the deck, even though I'm not convinced it's on par with UR, but it might work for your meta. You should try to find space for the 4th Mental Misstep, free counters are just too good to not max out on them.

I like a lot confidant vs shops. It sucks against delvers depending on your plan, unless you pack sweepers. It's awful against oath, but most creatures also are.

Drawing an extra card each turn while possibly beating for 2 as well makes a big difference between winning and losing, against any deck. Confidant is great against UR Delver, but usually has a short lifespan. Against Oath it is as suboptimal as a creature can be, but you still need the draw engine to find answers, so you take what you can get I guess.

Ah, yes, confidant and treasure cruise do not belong to the same deck. Sorry. So what about sylvan library? Life from the loam also fuels the grave for TC.

Agreed on Confi and Cruise in the same deck - tried it extensively, just won't work. Revealing a Force or two is annoying, but acceptable. Revealing Force into TC is usually a death sentence, even against decks that don't play creatures or Bolts.
I also took the time to try Sylvan Library and Loam - both are bad. Library looks interesting, but it was too slow and I often wasn't able to draw additional cards. Between Confi, Force, Misstep, Fetchlands and possibly Thoughtseize the deck is good at pressuring itself. so I rarely got to draw many cards off Library. Also, the joke is on your if you are playing against Oath... one 1G Enchantment is just so much better than the opposing one Life from the Loam suffers a similar fate - while not damaging you, it is just so slow and situational. Drawing 3 lands is not really impressive and wasting a whole turn to waste a land is usually not worth it. Against Shops, with a Sphere or 2 out, it also gets very much impossible to cast it anyway.

I think I tried every draw engine possible for this deck already - most of them are too slow and too clunky. I'm dreaming of a functional reprint of Dark Confidant every night though I think after Dark Confidant, your best bet is either to run more cantrips, or a combination of Edric, Spymaster or Jace TMS. None of them is optimal, but both have an immediate effect and Jace has many more upsides, like getting itself out of Bolt range or bouncing Griselbrands and Blightsteels.

@Zeus:
Consultation is fine, but it has its price. I guess it can be fine if you try to minimize on 1-ofs, but sometimes you just lose by exiling cards that could be useful later.

Btw I wouldn't go below 4 Decays these days - just too good against Delver and Oath to reduce the number of outs to a lot of generic situations.

[xouman]

I won't say that sylvan library is better than oath (I think oath is probably the best unrestricted card), but oath requires building around it, while library can be fitted in lots of decks in a role similar to top. In fact I'm surprised that isn't paired more often with sfm+batterskull. While I understand that playing a drs or trygon could be more urgent, before playing a tarmo or any other beater I'd play library. Delver gets really benefited.

Loam is slow, so I'm not gonna advocate for it if you already tried it. I'd try to abuse it in the future, and probably BUG has the best colors for it. Against MUD could be really hard to play it but could be the key to have mana sources all the time (even something as "fetch, mox, loam to recover fetch" can be really valuable). Trygon could be as hard to cast, and jace is of course much expensive.

I assuming that confidant does not attack successfully into delver. There is an old article called http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/3692_Whos_The_Beatdown.html that explains it better than I can do, but most of the time you prefer that your confidant acts a blocker against delver, not as an attacker

[youhavenogame]

Regarding Sylvan Library: I agree that it probably would be correct to play the first Library over the first Tarmogoyf, just because card advantage and card quality are much more stronger than just a dumb clock. There are several situations where Goyf shines, though. Anyway, I had several problems with Sylvan Library. The first thing is that you won't get value the turn you cast it. This may sound obvious, but most other card draw options people opt for replace themself immediately at least. My problem with that is that Vintage is a very fast paced format. Library shines in situations where both players trade resources and then the person who draws more draw spells gets ahead. Otherwise you invest something but it takes a full turn and at least 4 points of life to return that investment, not even creating value. To create value you have to spend a lot of life, and realistically Sylvan Library does rarely draw more than 3 cards. Creating card quality plus having cute synergies with Confidant and Delver is nice, but often not enough. Sylvan Library just takes too much from you and returns too little. I think SDT, another cantrip or even a 1-of Treasure Cruise are all better options than Sylvan Library. Feel free to try it though, addtional results and opinions are rarely a bad thing.

The matchup of BUG vs Delver is an interesting one. It might appear that Delver is the more aggressive deck, but that is not true. BUG has to hit as fast as possible, because while both decks can trade cards equally well, Delver has the better lategame with Pyromancer, Gush and TC, while they are also able to deal with our draw engine, but we can't deal with theirs. It's important to overload them with threats in a short amount of time, the longer the game goes, the more likely they are to have just what they need and win from there on.
Attacking with a Confidant into an unflipped Delver is a tough question, though. If you have a second Confidant, definitely go for it. If you don't have removal yet, consider your odds to draw out, or how important the Confidant actually is. The problem here is that Delver is good at finding its outs, while a flipped Delver provides a fast clock, especially coupled with the life loss from Confidant. If you are afraid of losing a possible race to a flipped Delver, just attack. You would be surprised how often they won't block. If your hand is very good then don't attack of course, as I usually value a surviving Confidant over anything else. 

[xouman]

I don't have lots of experience in that matchup, but as a UR delver I won't block a confidant with a delver. DRS seems harder to deal, because it wins life and reduces grave to cast TCs. The priority should be to save missdirections for decays in order to have delvers and pyromancers safe.

[DaveKap]

UPDATE:
I've tried Demonic Consultation and am really on the fence on it vs. Mystical Tutor/Preordain. Its ability to get a creature is great. Its ability to get a land is marginal. Can others weigh in with experience?

[vaughnbros]

UPDATE:
I've tried Demonic Consultation and am really on the fence on it vs. Mystical Tutor/Preordain. Its ability to get a creature is great. Its ability to get a land is marginal. Can others weigh in with experience?

Demonic consultation is great for tutoring any 3/4-of for one mana at instant speed.  The issue is it uses your library as a resource, reducing the effectiveness of other tutors and draw engines.  So if you are running Treasure Cruise, gush, and preordains Id probably stay away from consult.

[msg67183]

So I just recently started testing a list out on Cockatrice, and so far it has only lost a single game to a storm deck. The loss was caused by flipping a Force of Will to Bob while at 5 life while having lethal on board. Here is the list as of right now:

Sultai Tempo 


Mana (22):

1 Bayou 

3 Tropical Island 

3 Underground Sea

3 Misty Rainforest 

3 Polluted Delta 

2 Verdant Catacombs 

2 Wasteland 

Strip Mine 

Black Lotus 

Mox Sapphire 

Mox Jet 

Mox Emerald 


Creatures/ Threats (17):

4 Deathrite Shaman 

4 Dark Confidant 

4 Snapcaster Mage 

3 Trygon Predator 

1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest 

Time Walk 


Counterspells/ Disruption (17):

4 Force of Will 

4 Mental Misstep 

2 Spell Pierce 

2 Steel Sabotage 

4 Abrupt Decay 

1 Null Rod 


Tutor/ Draw (4):

Ancestral Recall 

Brainstorm 

Demonic Tutor 

Vampiric Tutor 


Sideboard:

3 Yixlid Jailer 

3 Dismember 

2 Steel Sabotage 

2 Extirpate 

2 Pernicious Deed 

2 Scavenging Ooze 

1 Wasteland 

Edric was the las card added and he is deffinietly worth the spot, he gives so much Card Advantage it's crazy. I opted for 4 Snapcaster for great utility and 3 Trygon Predator to dominate Workshops as well as have a hedge against Oath. The deck is supposedly supposed to be a dog to Pyromancer and Mentor decks so I decided to play 2 Pernicious Deeds in my board to deal with the token armies. Extirpate is a very versatile card for multiple matchups so it made the cut as well. Here are the match results I've had so far in testing:

Shops 2-0
Oath 2-0
Delver 2-0
Storm 2-1
Gifts control 2-0
Landstill 2-0
Neo Academy 2-0

[KanaKaishou]

Basically, I look at these results, and am a little surprised.

Your list isn't anything special (I think even you'd agree to that), but you're just crushing people?

I think there's a real possibility that BUG Fish might be a reasonable deck again. Even still, I'm so skeptical that two Deeds is enough to make Delver a better matchup. It was mostly unwinnable before, and I can't imagine it's gotten that much better.

How did games play out? That's something I'd be interested in hearing.

[msg67183]

Basically, I look at these results, and am a little surprised.

Your list isn't anything special (I think even you'd agree to that), but you're just crushing people?

I think there's a real possibility that BUG Fish might be a reasonable deck again. Even still, I'm so skeptical that two Deeds is enough to make Delver a better matchup. It was mostly unwinnable before, and I can't imagine it's gotten that much better.

How did games play out? That's something I'd be interested in hearing.

The games against Delver were fairly easy, Decay/ Dismember the Delvers block the Elementals with Deathrite Shaman, gain life when needed, use Deathrite to keep them off Snapcaster. I actually saw 0 Deeds against them and still won fairly easily.

[xouman]

I'm surprised about the success of edric in that list. Deathrite is not a card that attacks often, confidant/snapcaster die to any token and Edric itself is not a good attacker. However Edric seems awesome against oath, since orchards are transformed into a source of CA for you. That singleton of null rod is really awesome with those two tutors. Trygons also look really nice nowadays.

[desolutionist]

His Delver opponent wasn't on Misstep/Bolt