Help me brew Pox

[AceOfJacks]

First and foremost: I have not played "Vintage" in over 10 years, since the days of Abyss-Proof Gun Zoo, forcing people to maindeck Goblin Trenches at Neutral Ground NYC. That being said, I would like to slowly lurch my way back into the truest Eternal Format. I have been playing EDH for a year or so, since coming back into the game, and have amassed quite a few decent cards in the process. No moxen, but with my LGS allowing 15 proxies, I'm sure I can get all the "cheap" cards I need and simply proxy the few that must be proxied for now.

Now, when I got a playset of Lilianas and Dark Confidants, I thought I might be able to brew some rogue aggro mono-b control build. Now, it seems that once again every deck out there is blue or artifact based, and I'm not sure how Bobs would work in this. So I'm shifting gears to control based strategies, as opposed to aggro.

Thoughts:
How does Chains of Mephistopheles work in Vintage?  I know people use Skullclamp with Ravagers and such, but other than that, does Chains stop anything?
Is Infernal Tutor good in a deck where I have no card drawing (Other than Bob)?
Is Sensei's Divining Top worth it in a deck where I have no card drawing (Other than Bob)?


New proposed decklist:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles OR 2 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Pox
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Null Rod
4 Leyline of the Void




Old decklist:
1 Necropotence
2 Nether Void
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Pox
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gravecrawler
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Trinisphere
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mutavault
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle (thinking this should be higher)
3 Abrupt Decay (thinking this should be higher)
4 Null Rod
4 Leyline of the Void
2 The Abyss


How do I defend against Storm: I don't know. No, really, I don't know.
How do I defend against Oath: No creatures in play.
How do I defend against Fish: I thought of this as I tried to brew.
How do I defend against Dredge: Board in Leyline, aggressive mulligan?
How do I defend against Tezzeret/MUD: Board in Null Rod & Abrupt Decay.
How do I defend against Show: I also thought of this as I tried to brew.
How do I defend against Blood Moon: Abrupt Decay.

Any thoughts are welcome. I seriously need to think of something if I am to try to get into Vintage again.

[Wagner]

Quick notes.

You have 4 Liliana, 6 Pox effects and 4 recursive blockers, that's probably enough to deal with creatures, no need for Tabernacle main deck.

Against storm, you already have 7 discard and 4 Liliana and 2 Void, plus Deathrite that will help remove some of their graveyard.

I really think Sinkhole is your weakest card. You could replace them with Dark Confidant of Decay easily.

You can probably find 1 slot for Demonic Consultation since your deck is pretty repetitive.

Sol Ring and Mana Crypt really seems borderline playable since you can only cast 5 cards with them main deck.

Maybe consider 1-2 Life from the Loam to help deal with the discard and land sacrifices.

Most of your spells are double black, and you only have 11 black mana sources, is that enough?

[vaughnbros]

I think you should take a look at some of the recent legacy versions:  http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=88.  They may give you some ideas. Bloodghast and nether spirit are both definitely better than gravecrawler.  This replacement also lets you upgrade mutavaults into mishra's factory.  Life from the loam (if you can reliably get green) or crucible both seem better than sinkhole since they can keep bring the lands back and win match ups against fish+shops.  Tabernacle, yawg will, and original pox all seem questionable to me.  I don't think they do enough in this list to warrant inclusion.  You need more urborgs since a lot of your spells cost BB and a lot of your lands only tap for colorless, worst case scenario you can sac/discard the extra to liliana or small pox.

[Dr_Tongue]

Concur with the Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. Also questioning Yawg Will in a deck that can't really abuse it, maybe if you had Dark Rit's. I'd consider Death's Shadow and Thoughtseize/Vampiric and make your pain spells and "Pox math" add up to a cheap beatstick. Pox decks usually cant afford to play spells that cost over 3 that aren't Pox either.

[AceOfJacks]

Thoughts:
How does Chains of Mephistopheles work in Vintage?  I know people use Skullclamp with Ravagers and such, but other than that, does Chains stop anything?
Is Infernal Tutor good in a deck where I have no card drawing (Other than Bob)?
Is Sensei's Divining Top worth it in a deck where I have no card drawing (Other than Bob)?


New proposed decklist:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles OR 2 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Pox
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Null Rod
4 Leyline of the Void




Old decklist:
1 Necropotence
2 Nether Void
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Pox
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gravecrawler
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Trinisphere
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mutavault
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle (thinking this should be higher)
3 Abrupt Decay (thinking this should be higher)
4 Null Rod
4 Leyline of the Void
2 The Abyss

[Wagner]

Chains stops Gush, Ancestral, Brainstorm and most importantly, Jace. It's not as good at it once was though. I think Pithing Needle would be better if you really want to address Jace, and would not be dead in other matchups.

[Protoaddict]

I would almost consider running leyline main deck. So many lists revolve around the yard and you are just helping them out in a lot of cases. If you do that Top is a must to help smooth out your confidant draws.

I know your list is budget but since your in a proxy meta, lotus and jet are pretty much required right?

I also think your really low on win conditions. If you and your opponent both go into top decks and you cannot capitalize on it they can potentially craw back out of your soft lock.

The thing your deck is going to have a hell of a time dealing with is an early lodestone though. Not sure what you run to combat that since black does not have great answers for it by itself, in which case sol ring may actually be a good hedge against them.

Lastly, you may want to consider darkblast. Dredging can only help you and it gets a lot of things you need to get (confidants, Young pyromancer)

[AceOfJacks]

I'm not concerned about budget at the moment.  As is, I'm about 11 proxies in.  Basically anything 80$ or under I can get, or borrow if I don't feel like it.  What cuts do you think should be made based on your suggestions?  I want to keep Leylines out of the main for the moment, because of the pain associated in topdecking or from Bob.  Should I put Tops in place of the Chains?  Should I put Oxidize in the board?

[Protoaddict]

If you want to play to the meta a bit, You need answers to the top kill conditions because your deck will not get there fast enough in some cases. Some thoughts:

• Grafdiggers cage can do a lot of work for you, good against dredge, oath, tinker. You would have to cut nether shadow, but then again I don't think that card will do you enough anyways.
• Against shops I have no idea. Even if you go first Inquisition of Kozelik does not do enough against them, cause you cannot take lodestone. Oxidize may be a good card out the board but You probably need multiples to get them reliably.
• You deck has almost nothing against grizzlebrand. All your removal is sorcery speed and if he hits the table without a chains in play your probably dead on the spot.
• Is there maybe a good clock creature you can run that goes over the top? Tombstalker seems good enough to play with all the discard you have. even as a 1 of you still have tutors to grab him and win with a very resonable clock, and hes no slouch against most creatures that would come down except lodestone. Maybe even Desecration Demon?

I honestly am not sure the deck is right for the meta. While you have some great answers for some superstar problems like True-name Nemesis and some of the new creature heavy lists like merfolk, you don't have much for the traditional decks like shops, dredge, and oath.

[xouman]

Tombstalker would be a great inclusion but for confidant. confidant makes tombstalker a bad idea imho.

[Protoaddict]

Have you considered instead of building Pox and trying to break parity on the sac spells to instead try something like the gate?

It has a lot of the same fundamentals but has more stuff to deal with the meta.

- You can run your dark confidants without fear of losing them to your own pox
- Heavier creature base means you don't have to worry about finding a win con
- Still runs the same style disruption

I mean it may turn into dark times at that point but maybe there is something to it? Off the top of my head:

4 Dark confidant
3 Gatekeeper of Malikir
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughsizes
2 Duress
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Graffdigger cage

1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoths Will

1 Black lotus
1 Mox Jet
4 Dark Ritual

1 Stripmine
4 Wasteland
7 Black Fetches
4 Swamps
2 Bayou


Green may not even be worth it in this list to be honest. But like, its a little less risky as your not risking your own cards screwing you all the time.

The biggest issue with Small Pox as I can see it is there will be a great number of times in this format where your at parity with your opponent or worse. There are decks where you will never get full value out of them, but your not set up to abuse them either as most other decks will have more usable moxes/mana rocks than you and often times not even a creature in play.

You however will almost always be losing small pox, a land, and a card from hand. That is assuming you don't have a creature in play, which is your win con.

[AceOfJacks]

I like this new idea.  I wonder how Death's Shadow would work, considering Bob and Thoughtseize can add up quickly.  Also, how viable is Phyreixan Obliterator in the board?  Can it work against creature based decks?

[cutlex]

You probably want some number of Snuff Out to help your shop matchup.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I LOVE obliterrator...but not so much in vintage.  In vintage, things get to out of hand with moxen and fast bombs.  Plus there's oath of druids.  In legacy it is decent and in modern it is awesome.  I wouldn't try him in vintage though.  They'll either outrace you or just plow/dismember him and kill you.