TheManaDrain.com
June 07, 2023, 08:01:30 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Merfolk  (Read 16676 times)
sylverfyre
Basic User
**
Posts: 27


View Profile Email
« on: February 02, 2014, 05:36:19 pm »

The decklist I'm currently running (Sideboard is a little flaky right now, I've swapped things here and there.)
(The old merfolk thread hasn't been posted in in ages, rather not necro it.)

Edit: Oops, made some minor errors in the decklist.

Spells - 17
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
1 Flusterstorm
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

3 Null Rod

# Creatures - 23
(1 CMC)
4 Cursecatcher
(2 CMC)
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
3 Phantasmal Image
1 Waterfront Bouncer
(3 CMC)
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Meerow Reejerey

# Mana - 20
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Cavern of Souls
9 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire

# Sideboard
4 Grafdigger Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Steel Sabotage
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm

The matchup I'm having the hardest time against (and is a common one at my home store) is vs. Oath
I just don't feel like I have enough things to do to handle Oath and/or Griselbrand.  The few games I've won tend to be the ones where they get things down too slowly, and I get them down to sub-7 life before they get Griselbrand out, then either kill them on the next turn (while they can't block because island) or copy him with a Phantasmal Image.

Grafdigger's cage is nice and all, but it does Nothing against the Show&Tells that they always bring in postboard, knowing I'll bring in Cage.  Also shutting it down with a pithing needle (Or Revoker) before he comes down is nice, but he's still a 7/7 lifelinker that I can't race if they either A) stop getting islandwalked or B) get to swing in with him.

Things I was thinking about bringing in on board to have a better handle on Oath
Submerge (particularly in response to them drawing cards off griz since they don't get the cards unless they pay a second time.) - Also good vs. BUG Fish, RUG Delver, Noble Fish.
Additional Revokers and/or Needles, which are also useful in other matchups.


Plan B: (This qualifies as "Syl's terrible ideas")
Going U/G, bringing access to:
Nature's Claim
Trygon Predator
Kiora's Follower (3 part manadork, beater, and win-condition with Timevault (My own or one stolen by Thada Adel.)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:18:54 pm by sylverfyre » Logged
msg67183
Basic User
**
Posts: 929



View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2014, 07:52:57 pm »

How strong is your deck without Lotus or Sapphire? My list plays a Maindeck Hurkyl's and Steel Sabotage to answer BSC. I cut True Name Nemesis, he doesn't seem THAT great, I instead play the Hurkyl's. the problem with Submerge means they NEED to have a Tropical Island in play or else it sits in your hand as they draw cards and kill you with GriselDaddy. I skimp on Dredge hate because 1) it's not played too much around me and 2) I've learned that they can't really beat a Cage plus a wall of counters.
Have you ever considered Swan Song for the Oath matchup? It counters both Oath and Show and Tell, seems good to me!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 09:27:49 pm by msg67183 » Logged

Bloomsburg Tournaments:

1 Win
3 Finals
2 Top 4
2 Top 8

Outside Bloomsburg:

Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4

Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League.

Website for The League:

http://tmdvl.github.io

Zombies ate your brains!
sylverfyre
Basic User
**
Posts: 27


View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2014, 08:15:42 pm »

I swear, if Swan Song could counter artifacts, I'd run it in a heartbeat.  I'm so sad it doesnt.  On the other hand, Spell pierce CAN, but it's so easy for them to have 2 extra mana.

I do have one maindeck sabotage

I love the Mox and Lotus, because it's really common that I'm actually using one or both to accelerate INTO a Null rod, and I'm quite happy with that.  If I can stick a null rod in most matchups, I'm probably gonna win - 2 dead cards in my deck vs like 8+ in most opponents decks?  (Engineered explosives gets played against me a lot, too.  Nice to head that off before it can go off.)

I like the TNN vs. Delver/BUG Fish and other creature decks with Goyf and such.  Vs oath it's just a 3 power dude that doesnt get bolted.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 10:19:39 pm by sylverfyre » Logged
msg67183
Basic User
**
Posts: 929



View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2014, 10:50:04 pm »

You say you love Lotus and Mox, but had not said why they were not in the list. I know any of the Power isn't as powerful in this deck as it would be in something like TPS, but they are still good for the deck. I was curious as to how strong your list was without them. 
The fact that Swan Song doesn't counter artifacts doesn't bother me that much, I sideboard in 11 against Workshops, haha. Right now they aren't in my list but they might slip back in if Oath gets more prevalent. It counters everything Flusterstorm can and more, which is why I considered it.
Logged

Bloomsburg Tournaments:

1 Win
3 Finals
2 Top 4
2 Top 8

Outside Bloomsburg:

Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4

Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League.

Website for The League:

http://tmdvl.github.io

Zombies ate your brains!
sylverfyre
Basic User
**
Posts: 27


View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2014, 10:56:30 pm »

You say you love Lotus and Mox, but had not said why they were not in the list. I know any of the Power isn't as powerful in this deck as it would be in something like TPS, but they are still good for the deck. I was curious as to how strong your list was without them.  
Woops.  I was shuffling things around (originally i had all the power in one section) and then I must have accidentally cut them between reorganizing the list (it was not well-sorted before) and counting to 60.

Fixed the decklist (-1 island, +1 sapphire, -1 image +1 lotus.)

Another problem is 15 blue sources feels really shaky in a lot of games that I'll be looking at a grip of UU creatures and 1 island. :/
Also I'd love to make room for Mutavaults, but I dunno what to cut.  Maybe a little bit of disruption and something in the 3CC slot?

The fact that Swan Song doesn't counter artifacts doesn't bother me that much, I sideboard in 11 against Workshops, haha. Right now they aren't in my list but they might slip back in if Oath gets more prevalent. It counters everything Flusterstorm can and more, which is why I considered it.
There's a lot of times that Flusterstorm functionally reads "Cannot be countered" though.  And it auto-wins vs. storm.

I'll try singing to some swans, though.  I'm also considering straight up cutting daze, its so rare I can get it to stick, and its also rare I even have the option to use Daze during my Main phase since about half the time my dudes are uncounterable.

-2 Daze +1 Misstep +1 Spell Pierce, with Swan Songs in the sideboard?

Another card I've briefly considered is Stifle, but I'm honestly not a big fan of it.  Countering fetchlands is cool and all, but how often am I really doing that?  And it's missteppable.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:17:07 pm by sylverfyre » Logged
msg67183
Basic User
**
Posts: 929



View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2014, 11:38:44 pm »

I agree about Stifle, I was considering it as well, since it does so much but at the same time, it doesn't do enough, and it can be misstepped, like you said.
Daze might make the cut in my list as well, it's not as strong as it was, since Joel Lim made Merfolk a deck.
Logged

Bloomsburg Tournaments:

1 Win
3 Finals
2 Top 4
2 Top 8

Outside Bloomsburg:

Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4

Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League.

Website for The League:

http://tmdvl.github.io

Zombies ate your brains!
InfectedMushroom
Basic User
**
Posts: 215


ChrisF9800@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 01:21:24 am »

I don't believe you need Mutavaults, you just warp your manabase more. The key with Daze is knowing how and when to use it for max tempo gain. Turn 1 Cursecatcher while having Turn 2 Daze is huge. It comes from practice of knowing what your opponent is going to do. Oath is a very winnable matchup, because your guys are uncounterable due to Caverns. This frees up your counters to just focus on Oath of Druids and Show and Tell.

The other strength of Daze is the psychological aspect of playing it. If you catch your opponent off guard game 1 with Daze, it will stay in their mind the rest of the match. Even if you side it out, your opponent is forced to play around the possibility that you do have it. These openings are what can give Merfolk the time it needs to do 20 damage.

Swan Song is cute, but I am not convinced it is the answer.
Logged

ďWho is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed?Ē
sylverfyre
Basic User
**
Posts: 27


View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 07:59:03 am »

Sure, Daze on the play is great, but even on the draw it's kinda bad, and drawing it after turn... 2-3 on the play is usually bad too.

I'm not pulling them out for now, at any rate.  The threat of them is huge.  I guess I can just side them out for different countermagic when im on the draw game 2 OR 3.

Ugh yeah @ Submerge - if they Oath off Forbidden Orchard, I'm just screwed :/

Another waterfront bouncer or two in the board?  They can't counter him, and at that point (they've drawn cards off griz) I'm generally trying to win by having the better boardstate and/or uncounterable spells, fully knowing that they have the better hand.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 08:09:56 am by sylverfyre » Logged
sylverfyre
Basic User
**
Posts: 27


View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2014, 10:32:30 am »

I want to find a place for Sygg, River Cutthroat in this list.  A lot of games I lose, I get a nice board presence and dump my hand early, but it gets dealt with somehow (EE, Deluge, 1-for-1 from an opponent with better card draw)
and having something besides cantripping silvergills (which I can't even cast after I've dropped my hand on the board) would be rather nice.
Logged
msg67183
Basic User
**
Posts: 929



View Profile Email
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2014, 09:22:07 pm »

I have not tried Sygg in my list. I don't seem to have that much of a problem with running out of cards, i usually try and counter sweepers or cards that will end the game. Most of my loses with the deck come from BSC actually. He is such a broken card. That is why I try to counter him, or have an answer for him, I play 3 Image, 1 Bouncer, 1 Hurkyl's and 1 Sabotage main, that's 10% of my main deck! Another card to consider if you want to draw cards is Cold Eyed Selkie, but I will say I haven't tried that out either so I can't give an opinion. I understand the aggravation of drawing a Silvergil with no Merfolk in hand, it has happened plenty of times to me. Anyway I wish you luck with the deck, it is very fun and pretty strong from my testing.
Logged

Bloomsburg Tournaments:

1 Win
3 Finals
2 Top 4
2 Top 8

Outside Bloomsburg:

Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4

Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League.

Website for The League:

http://tmdvl.github.io

Zombies ate your brains!
sylverfyre
Basic User
**
Posts: 27


View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2014, 04:07:59 pm »

I think what I want right now is a second Waterfront Bouncer.  It's a semi-uncounterable solution to BSC which also partially solves the S&T/Oath problem.
Logged
msg67183
Basic User
**
Posts: 929



View Profile Email
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2014, 04:21:32 pm »

I'm not sure how strong another Bouncer is. You need to untap with it, plus you need to discard a card to use the ability. I've been in scenarios where I can't cast anything or play a land because my hand was empty and I'm in top deck mode. It might only be a small downside but I don't think it should go unthought of.
Logged

Bloomsburg Tournaments:

1 Win
3 Finals
2 Top 4
2 Top 8

Outside Bloomsburg:

Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4

Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League.

Website for The League:

http://tmdvl.github.io

Zombies ate your brains!
serracollector
Basic User
**
Posts: 1359

serracollector@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2014, 09:08:30 am »

Have either of you considered disrupting shoal? with all the two cost cards it should be free vs oath and if you run a set of jeery or tnn it allows easy countering of tinker and show and tell. just seems to me would be as easy if not easier to cast that daze and is a guaranteed counter even if they have mana. especially if you try out cold eye selkie to have cards in hand to pitch.
Logged

B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
msg67183
Basic User
**
Posts: 929



View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2014, 11:45:51 am »

Have either of you considered disrupting shoal? with all the two cost cards it should be free vs oath and if you run a set of jeery or tnn it allows easy countering of tinker and show and tell. just seems to me would be as easy if not easier to cast that daze and is a guaranteed counter even if they have mana. especially if you try out cold eye selkie to have cards in hand to pitch.

Disrupting Shoal is quite interesting I must say! It might be tried out in my list. Thank you for the idea!
Logged

Bloomsburg Tournaments:

1 Win
3 Finals
2 Top 4
2 Top 8

Outside Bloomsburg:

Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4

Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League.

Website for The League:

http://tmdvl.github.io

Zombies ate your brains!
serracollector
Basic User
**
Posts: 1359

serracollector@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2014, 12:45:34 pm »

sure np i have always wanted to run it, but never had the right cc mix to make it work but with so many 2 and 3 cc guys, and those being the same cc of the spells your most worried about it seems it could be quite go
od. gl and ur welcome.
Logged

B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
msg67183
Basic User
**
Posts: 929



View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2014, 02:05:13 pm »

I have been testing a more control version of Merfolk that plays 16 counters main deck and 5 in the sideboard to quite a remarkable well record. I tend to play very conservatively instead of trying to go over the top Aggro and get blown out by something.
Logged

Bloomsburg Tournaments:

1 Win
3 Finals
2 Top 4
2 Top 8

Outside Bloomsburg:

Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4

Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League.

Website for The League:

http://tmdvl.github.io

Zombies ate your brains!
sylverfyre
Basic User
**
Posts: 27


View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2014, 12:49:05 pm »

What are you using for the counter suite?  I found dazes to become dead too often due to all the fast mana as compared to Legacy.  I figure 4 Spell Pierces could work, but what else?  Flusterstorm feels too narrow for more than 1 or 2 maindeck, same with steel sabotage and Swan Song.
Logged
msg67183
Basic User
**
Posts: 929



View Profile Email
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2014, 01:32:18 pm »

What are you using for the counter suite?  I found dazes to become dead too often due to all the fast mana as compared to Legacy.  I figure 4 Spell Pierces could work, but what else?  Flusterstorm feels too narrow for more than 1 or 2 maindeck, same with steel sabotage and Swan Song.

Here is my list:

Unpowered Blue Demons:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine
11 Island

4 Silvergil Adept

4 Force of Will
4 Cursecatcher
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
1 Steel Sabotage

3 Null Rod
3 Grafdigger's Cage

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Merrow Reejerey
3 Phantasmal Image

Sideboard:

4 Dismember
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Swan Song
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
Logged

Bloomsburg Tournaments:

1 Win
3 Finals
2 Top 4
2 Top 8

Outside Bloomsburg:

Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4

Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League.

Website for The League:

http://tmdvl.github.io

Zombies ate your brains!
sylverfyre
Basic User
**
Posts: 27


View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2014, 02:09:38 pm »

If you're counting Cursecatchers, that's not actually more counterspells than the original list I posted:

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
1 Flusterstorm
1 Steel Sabotage
(4 Cursecatcher)
= 16 things that can counter.

When you said 16 counters, I thought you were actually reducing your creature count and adding more spell pierces/dazes/whatever.

I've lately been avoiding playing merfolk, because playing vs. Abrupt Decay is really REALLY frustrating (and it seems to be gaining popularity at my LGS.)  Playing vs BUG fish or other lists that maindeck Decay heavily leads you to having no good attacks when they have 2 mana open, because they decay a lord and then block-blowout on your shrunken, no-longer-islandwalking dudes.  Yes, there's games that you just slam down too many lords, but they have the superior draw power via Bob so it's not unlikely for them to dig for enough removal.

I've thought about squeezing in misdirection in the board but the board is already pretty tight as is.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 02:14:12 pm by sylverfyre » Logged
msg67183
Basic User
**
Posts: 929



View Profile Email
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2014, 07:12:44 pm »

I will agree that Abrupt Decay is annoying to play against, but I don't usually have a problem playing against Dude Decks. I did recently lose to Junk Hatebears because between main and board he had STP, Abrupt Decay, Eternal Witness and Green Sun's Zenith to get it. He also just had bigger guys than I did, so I wasn't really ashamed about losing it, he said it was "unloseable" before our match began.

My play style might be very different than most Merfolk players play style as well, I play very conservatively and try not to overextend if not needed.

I have tested against quite a high number of decks and my overall win % is extremely high actually. I can't believe how much I win with this deck, I've gotten so much better with this rack since I got it in November.

I wish you luck with the deck, and I hope you never put the deck down, I know I won't!
Logged

Bloomsburg Tournaments:

1 Win
3 Finals
2 Top 4
2 Top 8

Outside Bloomsburg:

Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4

Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League.

Website for The League:

http://tmdvl.github.io

Zombies ate your brains!
Untranslated
Basic User
**
Posts: 42


View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2014, 09:33:31 pm »

Hey guys, I like your exchange of ideas here.  Thada, Sygg, and Selkie are all interesting possibilities.  I'm still rather new [coming back] to vintage and am unaware of a lot of cards in the now ginormous pool, so I appreciate you sharing your knowledge (which I'm thirsty for...ok lame joke).

I recently put together a Merfolk deck, or "Folktails" as I like to call it, and would like to continue this discussion, especially since the thread hasn't seen an update in some time.  Although Joel didn't make it into the top 8 this year at champs, he's no doubt an extremely talented player and deck-builder and still did well.  I'm wondering what we can take away from his most recent list, which he explained to us during an interview by Bob Maher.  I don't remember all of the details, but I think he had 4 True-name, a number of Annul in the board, and no Daze.

Yes, Stifle is weak to Misstep, but it's also quite versatile, from countering Storm to a Griselbrand activation.

A buddy at my local shop loves Disrupting Shoal, and it apparently it's decent.  However, I've found that pitching my lords and 2-for-1-ing myself left me with card disadvantage and a lack of aggro pressure.

And now that Pryo Cruise is a deck (and totally out of hand in terms of brokenness), creature swarm is a more challenging win con.  But for every problem there's usually at least one solution.

In any case, maybe we can explore this archetype further and see if it's not still viable in the current metagame. 
Logged
msg67183
Basic User
**
Posts: 929



View Profile Email
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2014, 10:02:13 pm »

I lost my interest in Merfolk and Fair decks in general. There are just so many answers to them. I will say Merfolk, if played, should be playing 4 True Name Nemesis, and 0 Daze. I feel Daze is just not good enough anymore, while True Name Nemesis is pretty insane currently.
Logged

Bloomsburg Tournaments:

1 Win
3 Finals
2 Top 4
2 Top 8

Outside Bloomsburg:

Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4

Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League.

Website for The League:

http://tmdvl.github.io

Zombies ate your brains!
Untranslated
Basic User
**
Posts: 42


View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2014, 10:58:49 pm »

I know what you mean, broken plays are more efficient.  But are "fair" decks not still making it into the top 8?

Yes, True-name is quite powerful.  Interesting that Joel got away with only running 1 last year.  I know things have changed a bit since then (folks weren't employing as many creatures so maybe Reejerey was more appropriate).  It's hard to argue against 4 TNN.

What about Daze though?  It is another free counter and seems to synergize somewhat with mana denial.  What would you put in its place? 
Logged
Hrishi
Basic User
**
Posts: 391


hrishikesh29@gmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2014, 11:07:09 pm »

Interesting that Joel got away with only running 1 last year.

Do remember that TNN only got released a day or so before last year's worlds. While I'm sure people figured it would be powerful, it would still have taken a little time to get picked up.
Logged

Lyna turned to the figure beside her. "They're gone. What now?"
"As ever," said Urza, "we wait."
jlim17
2013 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 116



View Profile Email
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2014, 03:34:39 pm »

I love me some merfolk discussion Very Happy

My list for Worlds this year was something like this (working off memory here):

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
10x Island

4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x True-Name Nemesis
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Silvergil Adept
4x Cursecatcher
1x Waterfront Bouncer

4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
1x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm
2x Null Rod
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall

Sideboard:

3x Dismember
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Flusterstorm
1x Null Rod
1x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Steel Sabotage
1x Annul

FYI, this was actually several cards off from the list given in the Deck Tech. The Deck Tech was done on Friday and when I finally decided last minute on Sunday to run Merfolk back, I had to make some changes to further address the Treasure Cruise decks (which I still ended up going 0-2 against).

I think the only currently viable 3cc merfolk here are Merrow Reejerey and TNN. TNN is better for the fair decks and creature decks (assuming we can still lump Delver with Treasure Cruise in here). Reejerey is faster and better against the broken decks. Thada, Sygg and Selkie were just too situationally beneficial for me, and seemed like win-more cards.

I haven't had any consistent success with Stifle and I don't think it fits in this form of the deck currently. Maybe it could fit in a version with 4x Chalice of the Void and a focus more on disruption. Personally, I'm not going to be tinkering with such a version for the foreseeable future. For now, I only want to interact where I have to, and I'd rather have a more reliable early disruption spell like Spell Pierce or a more powerful one like Flusterstorm instead of Stifle. Also, with running 4x FoW, that's as much card disadvantage as I'd be willing to have in the deck at the moment, assuming Stifle gets used in this manner often. I understand it can be a great Wasteland, and if you want to focus more on the mana denial line, then sure. However, in the current overall field, I think Wasteland itself has lost its value and I'd even consider going down to 3x Wastelands to add another disruption spell (I would still not go below 12x Non-Cavern blue sources). Your own metagame obviously takes priority here though. Same argument against Disrupting Shoal, for the card disadvantage and its more situational use.

Interesting that Joel got away with only running 1 last year.

Do remember that TNN only got released a day or so before last year's worlds. While I'm sure people figured it would be powerful, it would still have taken a little time to get picked up.

The 1x copy of TNN had really nothing to do with the card just coming out. The increase in TNN's in Merfolk since last year was simply a reaction to the rise of BUG Fish and X-Delver. In 2013, results aside, I still think 1x TNN was right. There were very few fair decks in the field and a ton of broken decks, which was expected, and the reason why Merfolk was the weapon of choice. I would not have wanted to play zero, as, especially in the earlier rounds, there were going to be creature decks, which I played against two of by Round 3/4. Against the rest of the field, I needed Reejerey for the speed, and I didn't want more than one less optimal 3cc guy against these decks. Depending on your current field, I think 3-4x of the appropriate combination of these two is fine.

All that being said, I've never been a person to think there's only one right way of doing something. The deck may need some further innovation to compete against Treasure Cruise. I minimized dead cards mainboard (2x Null Rod), maxed out creature count to try to overload their removal, increased removal by adding Jitte's to the side on top of the 3x Dismembers, and this still was not enough to have a favorable matchup against Delver. Maybe there's another tweak or some kind of overhaul out there. However, at the last event in my area, the above Merfolk deck may have been a great choice to play! There was a ton of decks soft to Null Rod (Big Blue, Oath, Martello Shops) and not much Delver, which I think the better builds even slow down now in order to better answer Oath (3C with Trygon at least). Although there was ~5/32 decks on Dredge. Either way, test things and let us know how it goes!
Logged
Untranslated
Basic User
**
Posts: 42


View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2014, 04:42:23 pm »


FYI, this was actually several cards off from the list given in the Deck Tech. The Deck Tech was done on Friday and when I finally decided last minute on Sunday to run Merfolk back, I had to make some changes to further address the Treasure Cruise decks (which I still ended up going 0-2 against).

I think the only currently viable 3cc merfolk here are Merrow Reejerey and TNN. TNN is better for the fair decks and creature decks (assuming we can still lump Delver with Treasure Cruise in here). Reejerey is faster and better against the broken decks. Thada, Sygg and Selkie were just too situationally beneficial for me, and seemed like win-more cards.

I haven't had any consistent success with Stifle and I don't think it fits in this form of the deck currently. Maybe it could fit in a version with 4x Chalice of the Void and a focus more on disruption. Personally, I'm not going to be tinkering with such a version for the foreseeable future. For now, I only want to interact where I have to, and I'd rather have a more reliable early disruption spell like Spell Pierce or a more powerful one like Flusterstorm instead of Stifle. Also, with running 4x FoW, that's as much card disadvantage as I'd be willing to have in the deck at the moment, assuming Stifle gets used in this manner often. I understand it can be a great Wasteland, and if you want to focus more on the mana denial line, then sure. However, in the current overall field, I think Wasteland itself has lost its value and I'd even consider going down to 3x Wastelands to add another disruption spell (I would still not go below 12x Non-Cavern blue sources). Your own metagame obviously takes priority here though. Same argument against Disrupting Shoal, for the card disadvantage and its more situational use.


The 1x copy of TNN had really nothing to do with the card just coming out. The increase in TNN's in Merfolk since last year was simply a reaction to the rise of BUG Fish and X-Delver. In 2013, results aside, I still think 1x TNN was right. There were very few fair decks in the field and a ton of broken decks, which was expected, and the reason why Merfolk was the weapon of choice. I would not have wanted to play zero, as, especially in the earlier rounds, there were going to be creature decks, which I played against two of by Round 3/4. Against the rest of the field, I needed Reejerey for the speed, and I didn't want more than one less optimal 3cc guy against these decks. Depending on your current field, I think 3-4x of the appropriate combination of these two is fine.

All that being said, I've never been a person to think there's only one right way of doing something. The deck may need some further innovation to compete against Treasure Cruise. I minimized dead cards mainboard (2x Null Rod), maxed out creature count to try to overload their removal, increased removal by adding Jitte's to the side on top of the 3x Dismembers, and this still was not enough to have a favorable matchup against Delver. Maybe there's another tweak or some kind of overhaul out there. However, at the last event in my area, the above Merfolk deck may have been a great choice to play! There was a ton of decks soft to Null Rod (Big Blue, Oath, Martello Shops) and not much Delver, which I think the better builds even slow down now in order to better answer Oath (3C with Trygon at least). Although there was ~5/32 decks on Dredge. Either way, test things and let us know how it goes!

Hey Joel, thanks for chiming in.  Am stoked to learn about your perspective and experience with Merfolk.  Also appreciate the list so I can see the changes you were considering.  I remember hearing/seeing the date or day of the week in the interview which wasnít Sunday and thought ďwait a second,Ē figuring there could be a last-minute alteration before the event.  I think what caught me was the absence of Daze.  But maxing out on Missteps and tossing in a Spell Pierce seems at least as good. 

Iím curious about the use of Reejerey, the ďproperĒ use we might say.  When Iíve played him he usually comes down last (due to his 3 cmc) and a typical example of a sequence of turns is Cursecatcher turn 1, Silvergill turn 2, Lord turn 3.  I could play Reejerey turn 3, but if I have the option Iíll probably play a Lord and leave the extra mana open for Fluster/Pierce/Sabotage or to bluff.  In any case, Reejerey is usually dealt with before I can take advantage of his ability.  Itís likely that Iím not utilizing him to the fullest.  Joel, when you say heís been faster and more effective against certain decks, I imagine itís mainly because of the additional +1/+1 he provides, is that right?  If one expects to face a lot of combo decks, Reejerey is probably the way to go.  Conversely, if the opponent has blockers, True-name still gets in.  So far I think TNN is generally a bit better, though I get the feeling thereís more to Reejerey than I understand.  Iím still sort of a noob so feel free to enlighten me. Smile

Another very challenging deck Iím encountering (besides Pryo Cruise) is Mono Blue control, with its wall of counters, Trinket Mages to fetch Lotus, EE and Top, Back to Basics, and Propaganda and Tabernacle out of the board.  This could be described as one of the more ďfairĒ decks, however when they resolve Consecrated Sphinx thatís anything but fair haha and the gameís over.  Not too thrilled when they cast Dig either.  I suppose having 3-4 True-name is right in this case, as they can cut right through their Mages.  But then they blow EE on 3 and usually stabilize.  Maybe the match-up is alright with really tight play, which Iím working on. Wink  Any thoughts on Mono Blue?

The card advantage opposing decks have especially with Delve is definitely a concern and Iím not yet sure how to address it other than trying to beat down as quickly as possible, as the plan has been.  Keeping a 3rd Rod in the side sounds good.  Jitte is another powerful card, but one that I havenít much practice with so I look forward to testing it.  Any room for Pithing Needle in the 15 you think?

Thanks again for the responses!  I like this archetype a lot and will keep at it.

Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving.
Logged
Coopes
Basic User
**
Posts: 123


View Profile Email
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2014, 09:58:14 pm »

I modeled a decklist very close to the ones I got on this website and ran it with decent success in the past few DE's on mtgo, probably still a couple cards off the correct build. Was just testing a few different things, I don't like the 4th misstep main, for instance. I figure I'll try to get my hands on a second misdirection. The 3 Reej's + 1 TNN played out better for me than running 4 TNNs would have, for the decklists I faced at least. For the upcoming event on mtgo this is currently my choice as I am playing for the unpowered challenge.

I know the people here ran 2 jitte side, but there's a part of me that wants to cut the 1 I ran for something more proactive, just not sure what.

here's what I ran : http://imgur.com/JKA5kAR
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 11:31:57 pm by Coopes » Logged
jlim17
2013 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 116



View Profile Email
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2014, 03:57:21 pm »

For some reason, this didn't pop up in my unread threads until now...Anyways,

Iím curious about the use of Reejerey, the ďproperĒ use we might say.  When Iíve played him he usually comes down last (due to his 3 cmc) and a typical example of a sequence of turns is Cursecatcher turn 1, Silvergill turn 2, Lord turn 3.  I could play Reejerey turn 3, but if I have the option Iíll probably play a Lord and leave the extra mana open for Fluster/Pierce/Sabotage or to bluff.  In any case, Reejerey is usually dealt with before I can take advantage of his ability.  Itís likely that Iím not utilizing him to the fullest.  Joel, when you say heís been faster and more effective against certain decks, I imagine itís mainly because of the additional +1/+1 he provides, is that right?  If one expects to face a lot of combo decks, Reejerey is probably the way to go.  Conversely, if the opponent has blockers, True-name still gets in.  So far I think TNN is generally a bit better, though I get the feeling thereís more to Reejerey than I understand.  Iím still sort of a noob so feel free to enlighten me. Smile

"Proper" is pretty subjective, obviously the devil is in the details. In such a case for T3, if I don't think the result of the game will hinge on me having access to U open, I would play Reejerey here first. This gives you the most efficient use of your mana per turn. I don't think keeping it back to bluff is worth the cost, unless your read is 100% that the bluff will work and you avoid losing on your opponent's next turn. Short of that, I'd lean more towards mana efficiency. T4, you can machine gun out the rest of the guys in your hand by untapping your Cavern/Land, and if you don't win that turn, then T5 is still a lock. If you know your opponent has removal for it, consider playing the Lord T3 so you at least have U up on their turn. If you're unsure, I may still lean on taking the risk with Reejerey since the payoff is much higher if they don't have it.

Basically, due to his +1/+1 AND his ability to drop your hand the following turn, this is why Reejerey is faster than TNN. Reejerey provides a faster average kill. TNN provides a reliable clock through spot removal/blockers at the expense of that speed.

Any thoughts on Mono Blue?

I haven't really tested this, but on paper I have to imagine that this should be a good matchup. Null Rod shuts down EE pretty well. You can also play around EE if you don't have a Rod, by mixing CCs and forcing them towards the wrong CC or to blow it early. If you don't kill them a turn after they get a Sphinx in play, you are probably going to lose, although you were likely losing this game anyways if it already got to this point. This is a matchup that you rely heavily on Cavern of Souls. The Bomberman matchup sounds similar to this one. When I lose that matchup, I think its usually due to not having a Cavern and multiple STPs/Snapcasters. Mono Blue has no real consistent volume of spot removal. I'd say make sure your starting hand is favorable for this matchup, more aggressive, less control (I consider Null Rod fine here). You're not going to win the control role here. With all of that, I think you should win this matchup a considerable majority of the time.

The card advantage opposing decks have especially with Delve is definitely a concern and Iím not yet sure how to address it other than trying to beat down as quickly as possible, as the plan has been.  Keeping a 3rd Rod in the side sounds good.  Jitte is another powerful card, but one that I havenít much practice with so I look forward to testing it.  Any room for Pithing Needle in the 15 you think?

Going under Delve seems like the only real plan with dealing with it. If you haven't tried Misdirections for these matchups. I would recommend checking into it. Bolting YP's and Decaying Oaths is one way to lock up a game before the CA takes over.

Jitte is the best of the worst, imo. The deck wants a removal spell better than Dismember, especially against YP. I'm not crazy about it but I haven't found anything better yet. Pongify etc hasn't cut it either, and I'd prefer a non-misstepable spell anyways. Try things out and let us know how it works!

I had Needle in the SB since the beginning and it one of the last cuts. Now that 50% of the field shouldn't be Delver/Cruise, I could see it going back in. Although, similar to Surgical Extraction, as a 1-of in the sb, it never seemed to be that relevant or powerful enough for me.

I modeled a decklist very close to the ones I got on this website and ran it with decent success in the past few DE's on mtgo, probably still a couple cards off the correct build. Was just testing a few different things, I don't like the 4th misstep main, for instance. I figure I'll try to get my hands on a second misdirection. The 3 Reej's + 1 TNN played out better for me than running 4 TNNs would have, for the decklists I faced at least. For the upcoming event on mtgo this is currently my choice as I am playing for the unpowered challenge.

I know the people here ran 2 jitte side, but there's a part of me that wants to cut the 1 I ran for something more proactive, just not sure what.

Glad to hear its going well! I can def see cutting the 4th misstep if you're not expecting a ton of Delver or Storm (or now Jeskai Ascendancy! Very Happy). Not sure about the 2nd Misdirection as it may end up being too much card disadvantage. Cards I would also consider are another Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm, Daze, Spell Snare, Mindbreak Trap. Also, as above, I'm not sure how to improve the Jitte slot, again it feels like the best of the worst scenario. Maybe just cutting it altogether and attacking those matchups in a slightly different manner is best? Anyways, good luck this week!
Logged
Chubby Rain
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 742



View Profile Email
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2014, 04:22:13 pm »

Any thoughts on Mono Blue?

Phantasmal Image on Consecrated Sphinx is fun  Very Happy

But I think if you land a Null Rod and Cavern, you should be in great shape. Hold up counters for Propaganda, Wasteland for Tabernacle, maybe bring in Echoing Truth for resolved enchantments. I typically do not play decks that can beat Merfolk with any regularity, as Joel and his merfolk ilk know quite well.

By the way, many legacy variants of Merfolk are moving towards Chalice of the Void, which seems like it might replace Null Rod in the main deck as an more effective anti-delver and brokenness card. Though these decks tend to run Aether Vial which makes it easier to drop Chalice on Turn 2 without losing too much tempo.
Logged

"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"

"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"

"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"

Random conversations...
ben_berry
Basic User
**
Posts: 131


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2014, 04:58:59 pm »

The legacy decks don't expect to power out 3 and 4cc spells using moxes and lotus's though. So there are more cards at 2-4 that you need answers to in vintage.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.133 seconds with 20 queries.