Hi everyone,
Short version (first obviously 
:I started to play vintage not too long ago.
I am working toward acquiring P9+ (got twister, jet, sapphire, 1 workshop, library so far) and do not play with proxies so some of my card choices are limited.
I'd like some inputs on what you would play in a 5c stax deck nowadays? (The last posts are kind of old. New cards printed. Meta probably changed a bit too...)
I know quite a few people will ask 'why would I bother with 5c stax which seems dead, suboptimal and everything, especially with a limited card pool?' but bear with me as it's just the deck that I want to play and I'm just trying to make it better as an all around deck.
I do not want to have favorable matchups all over the place but give a decent run for their money to any archetype if able.
I almost never scoop
.
So anyways, if anyone could take a minute and help me out there, give me some pointers, that would be immensely appreciated!
Long version:Here is why I chose 5c stax: I like control decks.
Combo not so much, but gathering different lock pieces to create a soft/hard lock is my kind of thing.
I like the flexibility that 5c can offer even if the theory might be less brutal than MUD efficiency.
I love the idea of running one ofs instead of anything x4 (bombs I guess).
I like to have different game plans/ways to achieve victory so that every game at least feels different.
I am trying to find a nice spot under the sun with something I enjoy playing so suggestions are more than welcome!
I am not trying so specialize too much pre-board. Post board I should have nice silver bullets though (still thinking on which one obviously).
Here is the list I run:
[xxx] = these are the slots that I toy with.
That means everything else is my core. Note that this core could probably be optimised/different.
Lands/Mana sources - 264 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
4 Ancient tomb
1 Mishra workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Glimmervoid
2 [Gemstone mines]
1 [City of Brass]
1 [Cavern of souls]
1 Mox sapphire
1 Mox jet
1 Mox opal
1 Sol ring
1 Mana crypt
1 Mana vault
1 [Chromatic lantern]
Lock pieces - 21 (counting waste/strip and excluding crucible)1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 [Lodestone golem]
4 Tangle wire
3 [Smokestack]
Tutors1 [Demonic tutor]
1 [Vampiric tutor]
1 Crop rotation
1 Tinker
Hate/Utility3 Crucible of Worlds
2 [Phyrexian metamorph]
1 [Sylvok replica]
1 [Karn, silver golem]
1 [Goblin welder]
1 [Gorilla shaman]
1 [Ancient grudge]
1 [Ratchet bomb]
1 [Duplicant]
1 [Wurmcoil engine]
1 [Sundering titan]
Here are some explanations of my choices :
26 mana sources could be on the high end but as I lack mishra workshop and jewelry I felt it was needed.
MANAJewelry/stones:
Chromatic lantern: this spot is either coalition relic, chromatic lantern, or another land. (Possibly bazaar of baghdad when I'll have one).
Crypt, vault, sol ring: needed as only 1 workshop.
Moxen: auto-include the two that I have.
Mox opal: metal craft was sometimes a liability but it does help in most cases.
Mana lands:
Strip, wasteland, workshop, academy: auto-include.
Ancient tombs: lack of workshops so tombs help a lot. Also I find it waaay easier to cast colored spells when board is full of spheres.
Rainbow lands:
Glimmervoid: I've almost never seen this card in lists. I guess city of brass is the choice but so far I've never seen the sac trigger a liability (it becomes one when I am already losing. Hey I just lost even more
). When I ran mainly city of brass I lost way too much life with tombs, cities, crypt, vault, VT so it was another reason for me to move to glimmervoid instead of cities.
Gemstone mine: second best rainbow land considering the deck.
City of brass: I left one in just because it's an arabian.
Utility lands:
Cavern of souls: if I know the deck I am facing (game 2 and 3) it helps a lot resolving what I need. Maybe I should SB'd it though? 2 in SB vs counters heavy field?
LOCK(let's use some spacing for better reading)
Tangle wire: sometimes I wish this would be anything else when I draw it but it is very seldom. I thing the 4 slots are well-deserved.
Smokestack: I have tried with and without. The card is good. Sometimes not enough. I could not work out a better replacement though. I could see this slot being replaced though.
Sphere of resistance: I could not see myself playing without. Yes it does screw me occasionally but with 4tombs/1 worskhop, my mana base is usually good enough to slip through sphere effects for colored spells. Sometimes not enough for huge artifact though.
Trinisphere: a beast early to late game depending on the situation. Strangely lack of moxen and having tombs make it synergize well with the deck even vs MUD. If you have a could reason to make me remove that card I'm all for hearing it though!
Crucible: 3 feels like the right number. Can make me recover in the waste war so I would not feel comfortable playing less. Needed versus landstill.
Lodestone golem: here it is. My huge concern. I *wish* these slots were something else but it proved very potent times and times again. It is a decent sphere and a clock. Can also block. However beating my opponent fast enough so that he can't recover is not exactly what the decks should accomplish. See Magnus76's thread (5c stax forgotten diamond or hopeless dream) for more input on that. All in all I concur with his feeling that 'yes I know he is good, but please can you help me out fill these slots with something else?'. Truth being that vs pure MUD golem kind of fucks you up anyway.
TUTORSCrop rotation: needed in the deck. Especially with the utility lands suite and the possible waste/strip dodge. Also bait counterspells if I need another threat resolved (tempting 2 for 1). I would need an insane reason to not run at least 1 crop rotation
DT, VT: I am so unsure about these ones. I feel they are good. Good enough though? Only if I can package insane bombs and/or answers maindeck. Or switch them to SB alongside the bombs and make a vanilla maindeck instead? They are one of the reasons to play 5c too... God I am lost with these! %) I saw some interesting tutorless 5c lists too. To increase lock/threats density and consistency altogether.
Tinker: with my manabase right now 3+ (spheres...) non workshop mana is not really a problem. Actual problem is what to tinker, should I include more tinker targets in my maindeck?
HATE/UTILITYPhyrexian metamorph: good card overall. I would just run 1 if I had a clue how to make sense of the empty slot.
Sylvok replica: good card. You always find a use for it. I would prefer to run more welders to abuse this and other stuff more but the version I ran with 4 welders was less potent than this brew. I can't really see a reason not to run 1.
Karn, Silver golem: torn with this one. Can block. He is a win condition. But as I have just one workshop, he is hard to cast in many cases. CMC2 or CMC3 colored spells is actually fine with the deck, even with spheres, but 5 starts to hurt.
Goblin welder: 1 because I love it. However that's definitely a weak spot I would say. Insane plays as well as crappy ones... I wish I'd find a list that would run 4 without him being a liability in certain matchups.
Goblin shaman: mana denial is fine (and other random artifacts) is nice. But does he deserve a slot?
Ancient grudge: I am very happy to maindeck one. It does *not* synergize with the deck (freaking shame!). But the card is so good and so potent that it would need a lot of excellent reasons to remove it.
Ratchet bomb: dunno. So far it did not prove that good...
Duplicant, wurmcoil, sundering titan: slots for bombs and/or win conditions. I kind of need wurmcoil right now as I lose a lot of life with my mana base (tombs, crypt, vault, city, VT). See below for special gain-life-tech.
Things that I wish:To replace the slots I am unsure with with a suite of things that have a good synergy together and with the rest of the deck and/or are qualified as bombs. If that does not synergize with the deck, it has to make the shit hit the fan for the opponent! (Pardon my french. Oh wait, I am french.)
Try enchantment locks? Could not find a suite that would work decent all-around though. That was either good or bad. I am looking for some kind of middle ground maindeck pre-board.
Things that I tried:Balance: has a spot in SB right now. It felt hard to resolve a broken balance, and what's the point of casting balance if it doesn't go broken? I guess the semi-unpo state of my deck, as well as it's reactive nature (5c stax usually is more reactive than just playing lock permanents)is the reason why balance is shaky/funky and not so reliable.
Loxodon warhammer: haha this was actually a very good card as I lose a lot of life. Welders, shamans, karn, smokestack, hell even titan had fun wielding the hammer!
Seal of cleansing: decent use. Not sure if it's worth it as it does not synergize really well.
Hate with enchants (choke, in the eye of chaos, propaganda, rest in peace, leyline of the void, lightmine field [That destroys many form of aggresion, more radical than propaganda]): decent but I could not work out what'd be a good occurence of each.
Chain of mephistopheles: I hear very good and very bad things about this one. I'd like good reasons before trying this one out.
Enlightned tutor: if I go enchant heavy post-board, that would be an option to consider. Also fetches most of my answer as they are artifacts anyway. 4 tutors including enlightned, DT, VT, tinker could be potent, couldn't it?
Nihil spellbomb/tormod: works amazingly vs graveyard extension/dredge. Especially with welders. Shame I just run one right now. Also works better than a bounced leyline of the void.
Jester's cap/greater gargadon/chalice of the void: vs oath. Might be suboptimal choices.
Trike/hellkite/razormane masticore: can't find the right equilibrium between wurmcoil, sundering, duplicant and these. Razormane and trike are better if I run 4 welders.
Pyroclasm: sometimes I would board in this and balance as bob/metalworker removers.
Engineered explosives: I was *not* satisfied with this. Some people seem to have made it work. I couldn't.
Viashino heretic: I felt ancient grudge was better and accomplishing the same result faster. Loss of life was nice though.
Chalice of the void (x4, MD, also SB): struggling with these. I cant make up my mind. I've seen a recent list with x2 though and this strategy/bottomline 'If I see them in opening hand great. Could be a usefull draw later. But if not I might as well just run 2 to make it less likely'.
Pithing needle: could never make that work either.
Alternate tutors (demonic consultation/tainted pact): both have their use. Consultation to find the missing lock piece. B, instant speed, put in hand (crucible, wasteland, tangle, smokestack, hell even a golem). Tainted pact 1B but instant speed and put in hand (upkeep/tanglewire).
I did not try thorn of amethyst.
Should I try tutorless 5c stax?
Should I keep on trying welderless 4c stax?
Yours,
--Jay
