Play Their Deck Instead

[Treblocaz]

Recently, I've been getting absolutely crushed by bomberman varients; in particular, Brianpk80's take on the human-centric list.
I've been trying to find a way to build/play these bomberman decks to their maximum potential, but its becoming clear to me that others have spent far more time developing their play and tuning their deck than I'll have patience to do so. In short, I want to play bomberman without playing or tuning bomberman.

Cards with an asterisk (*) to their right indicate that the entire section of cards is subject to omittal upon a better suggestion. I am currently looking for any and all suggestions.

Without further ado,

Play Their Stronger Deck:

--Artifact Acceleration--
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Metalworker
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Expedition Map
1 Chromatic Lantern
-------- Lands* ---------
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Buried Ruin
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Ancient Den* (useful in netting card advantage with cruci and welder)
-- Really Good Cards ---
1 Tinker
1 Mindslaver (could be more)
--- Colorful Creatures ---
4 Goblin Welder
-- Colorless Creatures --
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
--- 6 other flop slots* ---
1 Triskelion (mana denial vs. fish)
4x Sphere of Resistance (useful vs. combo, can be sacced to kuldotha)
1 Karn, Silver Golem (mana denial vs. moxen)
1 Ranger of Eos (sometimes you need welders)

Sideboard:
3 Grafdigger's Cage*
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Duplicant
3 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Bazaar of Baghdad

For reference, here is the source from which I edited, Derek Wochinski's MUD: <http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=6625>.

The deck attempts to maintain hands where it generates enough mana to cast mindslaver (the 4x metalworkers appear essential here) and potentially kill the opponent or lock with welder (hence the cavern of souls). The setup/mid-game, as opposed to relying on, primarily, the traditional card draw of blue, is based upon acquiring draw steps via wasteland effects + crucible, lodestone golem, Karn, Silver Golem, and sometimes duplicant/wurmcoil. Any tutor effects that could potentially be used to tutor for goblin welder (Imperial Recruiter perhaps) would be useful in trying to move towards a mindslaver lock vs. an opponent with limited graveyard interaction; otherwise, the deck functions with mindslaver as a tutorable timewalk (via kuldotha forgemaster, also potentially treasure mage), while maintaining beatsticks.

The current transition into the mid-game is very susceptible to faster decks (e.g. lack of sphere of resistance which could be a problem moving forward). Cards like Smokestack would not work well in this current iteration, because most of its permanents are not lock pieces, and ~9 cards are artifacts that become sacrificed or are spells that cannot be sacrificed to Smokestack. Chalice of the Void has been omitted due to its weakness to bounce spells such as repeal, but could come into consideration as sideboard technology, or a maindeck choice if the format trends toward 1 cmc spells. The main appeal of this deck is its fast mana, and the powerful effects it can resolve if given a chance. I would say that this deck has one of the most degenerate mana engines in the game, and attempts to use it in a way that controls the game-state, perhaps this is a core fault of the deck; however, the deck has tested positively in games where it has resolved mindslaver's effect, or metalworker's effect.

[TheWhiteDragon]

1) if you are running all those colored lands and a welder/slaver combo, then you are doing a disservice not running the following 4 cards:
Ancestral Recall
Memory Jar (with tinker or worker is nuts)
Wheel of fortune (this is potentially okay to skip, but still busted with welder)
Thirst for Knowledge (the original slaver engine)

2) Treasure mage < vampiric tutor/draw 7s

3) Thalia seems totally out of place here

4) Several of the colored critters could be better, more synergistic cards like bazaar of baghdad (just example)

[Treblocaz]

The reasoning behind Thalia was that she was a sphere effect replacement from the original list that doesn't just get hurkylled. Cutting it for a more powerful and proactive gameplan like you're suggesting is easily viable. Bazaar would be an interesting step towards aiding the welder plan and possibly trimming excess mana (although excess mana does not occur too often, and the deck is very mana hungry to begin with). The initial design of the deck was built around maintaining some form of protection vs. opposing combo that did not put the player down a card (as FoW does) would swing profitably (as lodestone and thalia can do) and still maintain the ability to play an opponent's deck against itself (all of these roles function as control parameters in magic, not necessarily proactive combinations).

There are concerns as to the vampiric tutor/ancestral suggestions, and that is the prevalence of mental misstep in the meta. Nothing wrong with shoving an ancestral in, but the opportunity cost of a blue mana, for a card that potentially will not resolve, can sometimes be high in a deck like this (perhaps the pilot wants to cast treasure mage or a big artifact instead, but then again maybe ancestral really is too good to pass). Vampiric probably won't make it into this decklist, as it really belongs in vault/key and gush decks, that already have an active card advantage engine that surpasses everything in the field, and the card they tutor for usually ends the game on the spot while costing 1 or 2 mana (timevault/key and fastbond respectively).

As for the wheel effects, they are, more than likely, strictly better than treasure mage in a deck designed to withstand disruption. Initially 7 virtual copies of mindslaver were needed in the deck so one would be found every game while drawing only a single card per turn. Resolved wheel effects break this probability wide open, allowing a cut on slaver and most likely all treasure mages. The problem foreseeable with wheel effects is that they do not interact favorably with welder if they do not resolve (perhaps forcing a more Grand Abolisher-centric creature-base). The reasoning behind treasure mage as the tutor of choice is that he is: uncounterable, tutors for meaningful ways to exploit the mana advantage inherent in the deck, and swings for 2 each turn when faced against opponents who are willing to partake in the fish strategy (combo denial such as counterspell, stony silence, RiP, null rod, engineered explosives on 0, all backed with creatures).

tl;dr: If there were a way to guarantee the resolution of the high-powered cards suggested, they would be run over dinky creatures in a heartbeat (we would most likely get to have a permanent lock in such a situation). The shell of the deck permits cutting many, if not all, of the clunky sphere effects for raw power; perhaps in a pilot test for a redesigned welder deck this could be done. Do note that this would make the deck entirely soft to any form of combo and almost all disruption. I will attempt to put a deck together with a close approximation of your power 9, so that the maximum velocity of the deck can be analyzed more thoroughly.

Speed does not always close the gap. If you're looking to play Derek Wochinski's deck. Play their deck instead.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The biggest thing that I notice is that if you're going to Metalworker, just win with Staff of Domination...

[Treblocaz]

How many staves, and at what cuts? Wurmcoil is a probable cut as staff gains life in a similar matter, but is there a way to tutor for staff (drawing more than one staff in a game could be problematic when the only significant source of colorless mana for the activation of artifact abilities comes from a 1/2 creature). In this scenario it would be better if staff of domination cost 6 or more. Staff of Nin is off the table due to its inability to mesh with the controlling style of the deck (drawing two cards a turn does not provide enough impact, whereas going infinite with staff of domination secures a win via slaver lock).

[TheWhiteDragon]

A big problem I see with this deck is that your strategy inherently plays against itself.  Your colored spells are hindered by your own thalias and golems.  You want to stop your opponent from interacting via spheres and hinder their broken, but then you want to take their turn to play their spells against them (which they won't be able to cast thanks to your spheres).  So not only do you not slow them down that effectively, but you slow yourself down just as much, and then you just repeat time walks as opposed to beating your opponent with their own deck.  The original slaver lists didn't run spheres...they ran FoW/Drain...because they wanted to protect against blowouts, but they 1) didn't want to stop their own engine and 2) wanted to actually be able to cast things out of the opponent's hand when slavering.

Also, wurmcoil is your "artifact engine" so you can recur slaver infinitely.  You can't cut that (and it's a great card on its own).

I think the best slaver decks need to just be controlish with counters and keeperish answers, running welder + artifact bombs + draw engines (thirst, wheel, etc).  You are trying to blend fish with shop prison, with slaver - and those strategies just don't mix.  it ends up in inconsistency instead of explosiveness and hindering yourself as much as your opponent. 

You also decry recall and vamp because of misstep.  What about running your own missteps and spell pierces to give you that cheap disruption you crave without 2-for-1ing yourself?  They are better than thalia in this deck.  Treasure mage is also garbage.  Kudoltha forgemaster would be better.   You really can't mix shop-prison elements with spell-combo elements since they inherently fight against each other.

[serracollector]

I agree with the above. kuldotha is a good route. i would still consider one or two treasure mage tho and also try myr battlesphere which also allows an infinite lock out. have you considered forbidden knowledge or fact or fiction? both only require one colored mana are instant and are easily castable off your mana accel. since running black i would also consider reanimate or animate dead as a one of for welders or bots when you dont have welder. bazaar should be in there def. maybe also chromatic lantern. good luck.

[Treblocaz]

The deck does have elements that play against itself, the maindeck will be edited to cut the Thalias; this seems to be a big problem when people initially view the deck, and to be honest, she doesn't get drawn often enough at two copies for me to have an informative opinion yet. As stated earlier, acall is probably "that good", testing will begin with vampiric, acall, and other power 9 (including at least 1 wheel) in another pilot deck.

@TheWhiteDragon: [1] Wurmcoil definitely has to stay. [2] The opponent naturally boards into artifact mana, or a way to bypass a single sphere effect; in the event there are two out, welder can potentially sacrifice one, and if going the kuldotha route (1 to 3 kuldothas), kuldotha could sacrifice spheres too: pretty slick, I like your ideas being picked up from previous MUD "combo" lists. [3] I will reserve my judgement and testing on mental misstep and spell pierce in this list for the time being: there is more testing to be done without these cards.

@Serracollecter: [1] Treasure mage has been pretty okay in testing and can tutor for things like wurmcoil and battlesphere (just thought of battersphere last night when looking at plausible bombs). [2] Again, kuldotha is looking good and cuts need to be made to the deck to find room for him. [3] "Forbidden Alchemy"*/fact or fiction feel like great cards in this list, as it is naturally trying to either directly tutor, or dig very deep into the deck to find a slaver setup: currently I don't know where they would fit, but they're pure value. [4] Other reanimation effects aside from welder are being shied away from now, but will be reconsidered. [5] A lot of support is going out to homeboy bazaar of baghdad, and I will implement it in all future builds.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Here's my proposed tweaks to your list:

--Artifact Acceleration--
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mox Opal    (-1 opal, +1 bazaar)
1 Sol ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Metalworker
2 Crucible of Worlds*
-------- Lands ---------
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine (-2 gemstone) [you have 30 lands/moxen +4 metalworker.  WAY too many non-threats and you have bazaars to dig for colored mana now]
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
-- Really Good Cards
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will* (-1 yawg will, +1 Wheel of Fortune) [yawg will has so little value here]
1 Tinker*
3 Mindslaver (-1 slaver) [you don't need more than 2.  You never want it unless you are ready to win off it]
3 Fact or Fiction* (-2 FoF, +1 Ancestral, +1 Gifts ungiven)
--- Colorful Creatures ---
4 Goblin Welder
-- Colorless Creatures --
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster (-1 forgemaster) [4 is too many and you have no disruption, you need disruption and already have lots of draw/tutor]
1 Duplicant (-1 duplicant, +1 thirst for knowledge) [put dupe in the sb.  He's only good vs oath - and wurmcoil/slaver will be better vs everything else]
1 Wurmcoil Engine

[You now have 4 slots open - I'd recommend missteps or pierce.  You can also think about entomb, vamp, and/or animate dead]

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage*
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 War Priest of Thune
1 Wurmcoil Engine*
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben*
1 Balance*

[Treblocaz]

Patterns of success are slowly emerging for the deck in testing:

Metalworkers are a necessity and lead to the most blowouts when activated.
Spheres are a necessity vs. bomberman and other combo decks and do not interfere significantly with Mindslaver if you're tutoring it with Kuldotha (if the opponent can't beat your spheres in the first place don't activate Mindslaver, it's really that simple guys; if the opponent can hurkyls and tendrils under sphere lock props to them, this should be unlikely if wasteland effects are abused).
Destroying lands is imperative to be able to compete after a hurkyl's recall; ergo sundering titan, wastlelands and crucible cannot be cut.
Destroying Moxen is also very useful; suggestions better than steel hellkite are welcome, but this creature has sufficed.
The creature suite is fairly good where it's at; kuldotha is fine at three copies, however...
The deck cannot abuse an early tinker without blightsteel collusus; perhaps this card should be included maindeck.
Resolving mindslaver and activating when an opponent has more than three cards in hand leads to a high probability of victory.
Playing brick wall creatures (kuldotha, wurmcoil, hellkite) before playing Mindslaver is imperative to winning vs. fish.

[Guli]

Just played a bunch of games with a list you send me (it had blightsteel in main). The deck is very dangerous and can do powerfull things. I did have blightsteel in my opener a couple of times and I also drew it in another game. Once was able to hardcast it with academy and metalworker.

Thalia works nice against Hurkly's Recall outs.

Did have mana issues here and there. Not unsignificant.

Also never did a Slaver once and still won many games. When I did have a Slaver could not activate it. Why is Slaver in this deck? There are already so many insane plays...

[TheWhiteDragon]

Slavers are the weakest card in the deck - but it's all about "Playing your opponent's deck".  If we're not going for a slaver build, there are far better 5c shop decks to be played with tuned lists already.

[Treblocaz]

Just a head's up, the pilot testing on the 5cc powered list was a pretty big flop. The deck was really inconsistent, was extremely loose to counterspell without welder, and loose to counterspell on power 9 (which is a problem if your hand is clogged with welder). Also the pilot deck with wheel effects etc. still lost to generic fish decks running trygons and kataki; the deck needed 4x wurmcoil, a duplicant, and a triskelion in 75 to deal with these threats, and even then had trouble.

As Guli is saying sometimes, in the control slaver build posted, you do not have mana to activate Mindslaver; this can be problematic, and may lead to switching the mana base a bit to accommodate city of traitors/ancient tomb. The deck can naturally flood like any traditional workshop deck, as the mana density is quite high. A mulligan strategy for this is critical, and will be developed further. Flood can be okay if we are running into lots of wasteland effects to slow the game down (perhaps we add expedition maps to the main, which were decent in testing at 2 copies). However, most resolved Mindslaver effects either win the game on the spot or within the next few turns. This is something people seem to be underestimating about the deck, even though it is a common mode to victory.

If there are far better tuned 5cc shop lists, I'd be interested in seeing them and testing with them. At the moment I have only seen Derek Wochinski's list top 8. What else am I missing here?