Bullying in the Magic Community

[Prospero]

I am posting this to TMD, but I am also posting this to my various other social media accounts.  I feel very strongly about everything that I have written and I mean everything that I have written.

---

I spend a lot of my time writing.  Most of my writing remains private.  When I feel strongly enough about something though, the walls come down, the words flow, I share my thoughts.

I remember being in elementary school in Oceanside, New York, in the early 90's.  I had a couple of close friends; we played Super Mario III, Turtles in Time, watched cartoons, did kid things.  My twelve year old self had a crush on a girl by the name of Alyssa.  And there was a kid by the name of Francesco who would never leave me alone.  

I was taunted pretty consistently by him, and it bothered me, but I wasn't raised with my fists.  We lived in a middle class neighborhood where we did what was expected, lest our parents, neighbors, family and friends think less of us.  Our problems, which were minor in the grand scheme of things, were kept quiet, because things like that shouldn't be shared.  I ended up in a couple of fights with him, of his own provocation, that resulted in me feeling worse and him getting suspended a couple of times.

Things would have gotten worse, but in 1994, my father took a position abroad, and our family moved to Europe.

I came back from Europe in 1996, ready to enter high school.  When I came back, the only people I knew were kids I was friends with when we were in elementary school.  I was starting all over again, and it was difficult.  Dial-up internet was just becoming a thing, Facebook didn't exist, and it wasn't like I was great at maintaining these social connections to begin with.  

I spent a lot of time at home reading.  I emotionally latched on to anyone who would show me positive attention.  I had gone from a kid to a lanky teenager.  There was a kid in my 9th grade biology class who lent me a pen a couple of times, and had helped with my notes.  Joey was a good kid.  He was also probably the smallest kid in our grade, probably 4'11' to my 6'0'' back then.  We shared biology and gym classes.  I remember my gym class waiting for the gym teacher to unlock the gymnasium, and I remember how one of the kids on the football team picked on him.  Alex was a little bigger than I was, a hell of a lot stronger and more athletic than I was, and certainly more liked than I was.  I said nothing while Joey was being bullied for God knows how long, but I will never forget the day when Alex picked Joey up and tried to stuff him into a garbage can.  He thought it was going to be funny.  I got up, grabbed Joey, and put him down.  Alex was itching for a fight, and I had 'provoked' him.  We cursed back and forth at each other, but the gym teacher luckily arrived before anything could start just then.  The whole time that we were in the gym, I remember being terrified of the beating that was coming to me when we hit the lockers to get changed.  I was the first one in the lockers, and I got changed as quickly as possible.  He came in, cursing up a storm, I told him to fuck off, and I got the hell out.

I graduated Oceanside High School as an Advanced Placement Scholar, I was one of three students selected to give a presentation at the New York Federal Reserve, I had been accepted at American University with a very nice scholarship; my parents and family were proud of me for those things.  But the only thing that I'm really proud of that I did in high school was standing up for Joey.  I'm proud of that because it meant standing up and doing something that absolutely terrified me in the moment.  The other things were accomplishments, but they weren't difficult.  They involved expanding my knowledge, pushing in arenas where I was comfortable.  

So, what's the point, Detwiler?  

It was impossible to miss the Imgur thread from GP Richmond, and I have to say that I was absolutely astounded at the popularity of the thread.  

It is unbelievably easy to pick on other people, Magic players especially.  I don't know about you, but when I look around, I don't see a crowd of jocks, cheerleaders, and other socially celebrated subsets of humanity.  These are the people who know what bullying is like, because they've probably experienced some form of it all their lives.  Was there a point to be made?  Yeah, sure.  They had ill fitting clothing, they certainly needed to make adjustments to it, and absolutely nobody enjoys seeing what is often times on display.  

But to think that this was the means to make your point?  I am astounded because this is some sick form of cannibalism, where those involved finally get to turn the tables and be the bullies instead of the bullied.  

Do you know how easy it is to be that bully?  You can pick anyone out of a lineup, pick a 'defect' and rail at them endlessly.  You will not be taller because they are smaller.  You will not erase whatever 'defects' you believe you possess because they seem more broken to you.  Your life is not better because someone else's is worse.

And, really, it's not just some pictures on Imgur.  It's more than that, as there are members of the community who seem to forget that when we play Magic, we play a game.  This is a hobby, it is meant as a means to enjoy your time away from other forms of labor, albeit schoolwork or the 9-5 that you spend your Monday through Fridays at.  If a match ends and all you feel is anger, there are bigger problems at hand, and you need to address them.  You should not be taking your life's frustrations out on your opponent, who merely was unlucky enough to sit across from you and participate in this meltdown that you're experiencing.

How many times have we seen a match end, and seen a player exclaim some of the following things:

"You're just a luck sack, I had you crushed if you didn't top-deck ___ all those times."
"You played terribly, I can't believe I lost to you."
"Better lucky than good, huh?"

This, too, is just another form of bullying.  It's demeaning someone else, making them smaller, and, in some warped way, believing that this makes you taller.  It does not.  You remain small.

All of this has to be about something more.  This has to be about standing up to the bullies everywhere, and guaranteeing the safety of their targets.  This is about decency.  This is about taking the higher road.  It takes no restraint at all to say something hurtful and damaging.  That comment can live with someone for a lifetime.  I remember insults thrown my way from more than 20 years ago.  I've let them go because I've grown past the hurt, but it took a lot to get to this point, and it's bullshit that this was necessary.  Life already throws enough curves for us to deal with; petty bullying is absolutely unnecessary, and the pictures from GP Richmond, along with much of what I've seen recently, just reinforce that this is something that we should all stand up to.  Should a person be made to feel like a lesser human being because someone else is looking for a laugh?  I don't think so, and I think it's incumbent upon us to not only say that it isn't funny, but stop it at its source.

I made a small donation to It Gets Better, an L.B.G.T. anti-bullying charity tonight.  I would like to think that instead of seeing us discuss the baser instincts of humanity, we can rise above that to create something positive from this.  It took me a really long time to learn that we define ourselves.  If we choose to find happiness, we will.  And if we choose to see nothing but the negatives in life, we will.  We define ourselves however we choose, and I choose to believe that the better tendencies of the community mark us, not the lesser ones.

I encourage everyone in the community to stand up and do something not just about bullying in the Magic community, but life in general.  Maybe it's a donation to a charity of your choice, maybe it's standing up to the bullies, maybe it's just lending support to their victims.  But absolutely everyone can do something.  And we should.

Vintage players, you know me as an administrator on TheManaDrain.com, a Shop theorist and pilot and a tournament organizer.  I will make the additional promise to you that bullying of any kind will not be tolerated, under any circumstances, at any of my events.  My next event is the N.Y.S.E. Open II in June, a Vintage tournament for eight pieces of power, a set of Workshops, a set of Bazaars, and more.  Bullying will not be a factor at the N.Y.S.E. Open.  

Be the change you want to see in the world.

[Smmenen]

I completely endorse and applaud what you had to say.  I hope that this means that when you observe this behavior in your private life, you will call out and hold people accountable for  engaging in demeaning conduct. 

To paraphrase Burke, all that is needed for this continue exist is for good people to say nothing. 

[Klep]

This is exactly how I feel about the situation.  Thank you for writing this Nick.

[serracollector]

Thank you so much for that very well written piece. I find this very close to heart as i have had my fair share of angry magic moments which i regret and i have seen others that just blew my mind. Its a game for crying out loud. Enjoy it. Have fun and shake someones hand win or lose.

[JarofFortune]

Wow, this was just beautiful. Thank you for writing this. It really makes me appreciate what an amazing community we have. This has also made me reflect a bit on my own life. You are a very though-provoking writer; you should write more.

[yugular]

Good writing. I shared this in twitter. https://twitter.com/yugular_mp/status/443661981552508928

[John Cox]

Thanks.

[LotusHead]

Thanks for sharing this Prospero. When I saw the Buzzfeed/FB thing, I threw up in my mouth. Not that I found butt cracks vomit worthy, but that someone took the time to make this into "a thing".

Gamers have always found refuge in "gaming", where we are pretty much all equals.

I'm sure this guy thought what he did was funny, and it kinda was, but it was mean.

Full Disclosure:  I post tourney reports, post pics, and get to make comments in said pics, but all were intended to entertain the community.  Sometimes, I knew I got to say things that the people involved couldn't really respond to, and could get away for saying some things without challenge, but I knew full well that people knew who was posting it (ie, me) and was willing to hold myself accountable to the community.

What this guy did was mean, but at least he put his face in it (and will be outed soon enough, I'm sure).

It was funny, but sill just mean. :/

@prospero: I fought super hard in the SCG.com forums to let the General Discussion community use the word "gay" to talk about "gay issues" and not fight through their filter. Ben Bleuweiss fixed it, then SCG forums went extinct. I did win that fight there!   But it's gone now.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I guess I don't get it. These the equivalent of upskirt photos. Someone has inadvertently exposed a part of their body. At the entirety of a GP, this guy could only find a dozen or so people over the course of the day who were inadvertently exposed. How is this any different from any other convention in that regard? Gather 1000 people and what are the odds that you can't find a dozen inadvertently exposed at some point by day's end?

[KrauserKrauser]

I was at the GP and the amount of plumber butt on display was abnormally high.  

I've been to multiple Gen Cons and other large scale events, but never have I seen so much hairy man bottom playing cards.  Maybe I don't go to enough GP's to be more accustomed to it, but there were multiple people with two entire cheeks hanging through the back of the chair.

What he did was hurtful and shaming, but I couldn't go 2-3 rows without seeing exactly what the pcitures depict at the event.

I understand the reason for any potential banning, but it really was comical (and a bit disgusting) how much of it was on display.

[lplaat]

I fully support the basic premise of this thread but making photos of grown-ups apparently unable/unwilling to dress according to basic socially accepted guidelines doesn't qualify as bullying in my book.

It's more like confirming the gamers-stereotype which apparently is still quite apt.

Not the guy making these photos but the sorry individuals being "exposed" should be ashamed of themselves IMHO, even though it would have been more appropriate to speak to each of these individuals instead of posting photos on the internet.

cheers,
lplaat

[AmbivalentDuck]

I fully support the basic premise of this thread but making photos of grown-ups apparently unable/unwilling to dress according to basic socially accepted guidelines doesn't qualify as bullying in my book.

That misses the point. These people aren't being shamed for wearing white after Labor Day. This presumes that it's shameful to have an exposed butt and then proceeds to shame those who have an exposed butt.

You're saying that because avoiding exposure is a "just" standard in some sense or another, it's not bullying to enforce it. This presumes that you know justice from injustice and that there's no similar evidence of "indiscretion" that could be found to slander you. Hint: There's always something even if it's just taken out of context.

Worse, you're engaged in blaming-the-victim: she deserved to have an upskirt photo taken for dressing in such an indecently short skirt. Above the ankles! For shame!

[Smmenen]

I think you are getting too focused on one incident.  I think the gist of Nick's post is that the Magic community -- and by extension other communities -- could stand to have a dose of improved decorum and human respect. 

Similarly, don't overly focus on the term "bullying."  That's an ambiguous term. 

I take the broader message of the original post to mean that conduct that is demeaning is inappropriate, and that Nick is taking a stand, as he put it to "encourage everyone in the community to stand up and do something not just about bullying in the Magic community, but life in general."  I think that's great.

I think one problem with Magic community is that a big part of it is historically predominantly adolescent males, but it is transitioning to more of an adult game.  Through that transition, behavioral norms change. 
 

[AmbivalentDuck]

This is probably where lawyer vs neural engineer will lead to some divergence, but I think value judgment is inevitable and some of those judged values won't be particularly respectful.

Maybe a better way to state this whole thread is, "Inflicting emotional harm to get what you want is both cruel and relatively ineffective for its stated purpose, so don't do it."

EDIT: As to adolescent vs adult gaming, I made the mistake of pricing out my EDH deck before playing it last night. I paid less for my first car. Even without the Beta/foils, it seems like I can't build an EDH deck under $2k.

[Smmenen]

I think value judgment is inevitable

What is a "value judgment" in this context?  Do you mean a value that is being judged or the expression of judgment on someone?  

If you mean values, lawyers all start with a core value, usually embodied in a law.  

[Thecheese]

The core value being "show me the money".

[AmbivalentDuck]

Not that I particularly agree or disagree with intimidation to fight bullying. But the implication is clear.

Bullying is easier when it's clear that nobody can/will stand up for the party being bullied.

What is a "value judgment" in this context?  Do you mean a value that is being judged or the expression of judgment on someone?

In this framework, value judgment is anticipated reward for a state/transition pair. Out of the blue sky, that seems like a pretty strange framework to pull into a discussion like this, but from my doctoral research it's looking like POMDP is most of what humans do. Of course, they're actually pretty awful at assessing the reward function. You can argue that bullying is a form of self-manipulation via the contrast principle to actively misassess a state-value pair. It seems strange that anyone would actively delude themselves until you realize that it's actually locally optimal: if state transitions have an implied cost, the easiest way to seek value is to upwardly misassess the value of your present state.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It seems like the value of thread is simple: bullying will be recognized and won't be tolerated.

[nataz]

will you seriously kick someone out of the event if they say something similar to the following?

"You're just a luck sack, I had you crushed if you didn't top-deck ___ all those times."
"You played terribly, I can't believe I lost to you."
"Better lucky than good, huh?"

[Prospero]

will you seriously kick someone out of the event if they say something similar to the following?

"You're just a luck sack, I had you crushed if you didn't top-deck ___ all those times."
"You played terribly, I can't believe I lost to you."
"Better lucky than good, huh?"

Situation #1:

Player A and Player B have just completed their match.  Player B has lost to Player A.  Player B throws an empty deck box across the room, screams "Better lucky than good, huh", and flips their chair. 

Situation #2:

Player A and Player B have just completed their match.  Player B has lost to Player A.  "Never saw that Show and Tell putting an Oath of Druids into play.  Awesome call.  Better lucky than good, huh?" 

Context matters.  There is a lot that goes into removing someone from an event.  The player in the first situation will be thrown out in a heartbeat.  The player in the second situation is being ironical, and humorous.

I'm not going to go through a million hypothetical scenarios here.  Common sense will adjudicate all conflicts.

[Tha Gunslinga]

What if a player says, "Your deck is garbage.  I would crush you if you didn't draw the nuts every game.  How is it that you start with Recall and Lotus every single game?  Your deck is terrible, and you're terrible too.  A monkey could play that deck."

[diopter]

If I were in Nick's shoes, and an individual were trying make his or her opponent feel small through words but without being physical, I would privately pull them aside between rounds and warn them that was inappropriate. Ignoring this sage advice would result in an ejection.

It's probably not wise to shift gears from walk to kill when dealing with this sort of thing. We're asking people around us to behave in a well-adjusted and respectful manner. This is a great goal but requires a delicate touch since the definition and uptake of "respectful" varies a lot.

[Chill79]

What if a player says, "Your deck is garbage.  I would crush you if you didn't draw the nuts every game.  How is it that you start with Recall and Lotus every single game?  Your deck is terrible, and you're terrible too.  A monkey could play that deck."

My reply would be "You win some,you lose some =)".Or better lucky then good.

[WhiteLotus]

So instead of discussing positive things that we can do in order to fix the problem at hand, it seems like we've launched into a deconstruction of my post with intent to find possible nefarious intentions. There were none.

So we can either get on point, or we can end this conversation.

It is quite sad that some people are trying to find ways to wrongly interpret and twist the original post that was clearly meant to take a stand against the lowly behavior that bullying is.

[Prospero]

If I were in Nick's shoes, and an individual were trying make his or her opponent feel small through words but without being physical, I would privately pull them aside between rounds and warn them that was inappropriate. Ignoring this sage advice would result in an ejection.

It's probably not wise to shift gears from walk to kill when dealing with this sort of thing. We're asking people around us to behave in a well-adjusted and respectful manner. This is a great goal but requires a delicate touch since the definition and uptake of "respectful" varies a lot.

[vartemis]

Bullying I can understand because I've been on both sides of it, and neither side made me feel good. The physical stuff was less damaging than the verbal. Bruises heal, but psychological stuff can stay around forever for some.

Referring to the reddit post, I do have great frustration with people who attend hobby events who seem unable to grasp basic presentability though. I know there is a whole range of psychological reasons why, but it frustrates me to know end sitting across from someone and having to breath shallowly because of odor, or seeing someone with clearly dirty clothes on. Thankfully, most venues are standing up to this. I've seen someone refused entry lately to a tournament and a different person at a comic convention because of odor. I felt extremely embarrassed for the last guy because it happened in front of a large group of people. It could have been handled better by pulling him aside out of the main public's view, but perhaps that will make him think twice before doing it again. Specifically regarding the plumber's butt, it also takes all of two seconds to do a pant check. If your ass is that big, you probably know that it likes to break out often enough. If you can't fix it, then clearly your mother failed to show you how to properly shop for pants. Looking at the photos, it appeared to all be men at the age of majority, not teens. Are we gonna start seeing young kids yelling at adults to pull their pants up? That would be ironic.

If I heard someone verbally abusing another player, I'd give them a warning. If they didn't knock it off, I have no problem verbally laying into them loud enough for everyone to hear. The thing about bullying is that it's no longer fun when you are the center of attention in a negative way. Sometimes all it takes is a quick reality check to remind the person that they are in a room full of stereotypical nerds pretending to be a planeswalking wizard. I've been at a few tournaments and had to do this, but it's pretty rare. Things have only gotten physical once, and, in a room full of nerds, there is usually always someone bigger than you who can physically restrain you until the owner can kick you out.

j

[GrandpaBelcher]

What if a player says, "Your deck is garbage.  I would crush you if you didn't draw the nuts every game.  How is it that you start with Recall and Lotus every single game?  Your deck is terrible, and you're terrible too.  A monkey could play that deck."

My reply would be "You win some,you lose some =)".Or better lucky then good.

My reply would be, "Good game, Soly. See you at dinner."

[Onslaught]

Summary of this thread so far:

http://youtu.be/PvwYP_oOtCw

The psychology of bullying is fascinating, and at the time I was in my PsyD program there was only a trickle of research done on cyber bullying. Talking out of my ass with no stats, but if I had to guess I would say the majority of MTG players today face cyber bullying far more frequently than any other form - and unfortunately it is probably more consistent and prevalent than any kind of teasing that used to happen in the past. Not that it would make having a picture of your ass crack posted online any less mortifying (though they are relatively anonymous), but let's be real and acknowledge that it isn't really the end of the world. You are allowed to have an exposed ass at the beach or something, so comparing plumber butt pics to taking sexualized up-skirt photos is quite the logical leap. Similarly, I take issue with the berating of an opponent after a loss being classified as bullying. I think it can diminish the efforts of addressing the real issue when people go overboard with things like that, so  t's worth thinking about what actually constitutes bullying. Also had to chuckle a bit at the irony of your disdain for the practice of calling an opponent lucky and such since it's exactly what you did after our online match in the TMD Invitational

Even though discussions go a bit off track sometimes, that's just how conversations work. I don't think people meandering through discourse diminishes the noble intent of the thread, so I'd hate to see it locked as threatened earlier.

I'm 6'5 240

[Valorale]

Clocking in at 6ft 1in weighing in 250lb ... I thought my days of being bullied were over

Nathaniel Moes made sure it wasnt.

I was new to vintage at the time and thought it would be fun to play a friendly game of magic with Lochinvar.

Casually sitting across from me he says "New to Vintage? Oh I have a deck, dont worry it doesnt run any counter magic"

Mox, Mox, Mox, Elvish Spirit Guide, Goblin Charbelcher

Id heard about this card before. I played out a land and a mox myself with Hurkyl's Recall in hand. Sensing a trap if I played the recall now, I employed all the knowledge I had garnered from Menendian's articles and training of being patient, be the control player! I pass the turn.

Untap, upkeep, Mr Moes turns Charbelcher sideways with his 3 moxes for activation cost. Seeing my opportunity, I respond with Hurkyl's Recall.

"Ok"

Yea, okay? "I bounce Charbelcher"

Forever seared into my mind, the ear to ear grin on Nat's face as if in slow motion he raises his hand above his head and leans across the table. What is this? What is he doing?

A look of confusion is on my face

The grin intensifies, his eyes make gestures to his open palm raised above his head as if he is offering me something to take.

"Eh? Eh?"

It dawned on me. Hurkyl's didnt cancel the Charbelcher trigger on the stack.

Nat had an opportunity that day to be a teacher, a mentor. Instead he chose to bully. Hold me up for public ridicule for everyone else to see. This behavior is not okay, it must be stopped right now.

[Onslaught]

Perhaps he was bullied into playing a deck like Charbelcher in the first place...a vicious cycle.