RUW Prison: Next level denial

[rikimaru75]

Playing Spirit is the correct play, because that card will probably lure out their counter magic. If you can topdeck another land next turn, your Thalia will most likely hit and then you can combine it with a wasteland. If they don't counter the spirit, you have a clock on the board and something that prevents things like brainstorm and ancestral recall fixing their hand.

I don't follow this logic.  Baiting counter magic is all fine and dandy when its pertinent, but that's not this scenario.  If I'm the BUG fish player why would I waste a force of will on a 3/1 do nothing?  Since I don't have ancestral or brainstorm in my hand or I likely would've cast them already.  In this scenario, Thalia also shuts off the only two cards spirit does anything to, brainstorm and ancestral.  She is also shutting off vampiric tutor, making moxen at least a turn slower, and makes all of your spells uncounterable after you waste them next turn.  Sure she could get hit by a force this turn, but thats even more likely to happen if we wait a turn as they will have another card. 

I explained this before, against BUG you do not want to go into a wasteland war unless you have good reasons. They run Deathrite Shaman and it can backfire fast if you aggressively waste. I generally delay my wasteland activations untill I have nice board and a good reason to hurt their mana.

You are also holding a Brimaz and Archetype. You do not want to waste here, and I think Spirit is the card to play, if they don't counter, you have a clock, if they do counter, you still have 2 more spirit in hand and your Thalia is more likely to hit.

Agreed though.  I'm not sure how the game got to this point, as in what we as the RW player have top decked, but it seems as though we should have been significantly less aggressive with our strip effects.

Sadly, I cannot recall the series of plays that got up to this point, but I remember both of us using the Wasteland and Strip Mine effects to get us to the point where we were both essentially top-decking for a few turns. From there, it was a lot of Draw-Go until the turn announced before (described above).

The reason I fast-forwarded to this board state and turn is because I feel that this is the junction point where (all things considered) one can switch from controlling the board state to laying down pressure with beatdown (either with Spirit of the Labyrinth or Thalia, Guardian of Thraben) or baiting out countermagic (since nothing has been countered just yet), so I was curious to know people's opinions.

Your hand is mostly active at two mana. Meanwhile, it seems like your opponent is either drawing a bunch of dead cards (or possible counterspells?) since he is also doing a lot of nothing at the moment.

[Guli]

Playing Spirit is the correct play, because that card will probably lure out their counter magic. If you can topdeck another land next turn, your Thalia will most likely hit and then you can combine it with a wasteland. If they don't counter the spirit, you have a clock on the board and something that prevents things like brainstorm and ancestral recall fixing their hand.

I don't follow this logic.  Baiting counter magic is all fine and dandy when its pertinent, but that's not this scenario.  If I'm the BUG fish player why would I waste a force of will on a 3/1 do nothing?  Since I don't have ancestral or brainstorm in my hand or I likely would've cast them already.  In this scenario, Thalia also shuts off the only two cards spirit does anything to, brainstorm and ancestral.  She is also shutting off vampiric tutor, making moxen at least a turn slower, and makes all of your spells uncounterable after you waste them next turn.  Sure she could get hit by a force this turn, but thats even more likely to happen if we wait a turn as they will have another card. 

I explained this before, against BUG you do not want to go into a wasteland war unless you have good reasons. They run Deathrite Shaman and it can backfire fast if you aggressively waste. I generally delay my wasteland activations untill I have nice board and a good reason to hurt their mana.

You are also holding a Brimaz and Archetype. You do not want to waste here, and I think Spirit is the card to play, if they don't counter, you have a clock, if they do counter, you still have 2 more spirit in hand and your Thalia is more likely to hit.

Agreed though.  I'm not sure how the game got to this point, as in what we as the RW player have top decked, but it seems as though we should have been significantly less aggressive with our strip effects.

A 3/1 is not a small clock when there are only so much mana resources available. Once the spirit is in, it will start a considerable faster clock than Thalia. You are not playing a combo deck, Thalia is less important in that regard. But Thalia is very important in that board state. And since you have 3 Spirit, this means Spirit is expendable and Thalia is not. My intuition tells me Spirit is the right play.

[xouman]

I think I'll also play thalia to prevent any non-creature spell. Spirit has a faster clock, but if they play a confidant/snapcaster/revoker... thalia survives while spirit dies. If i had another land in hand I'd play spirit and next turn I'd play archetype, but with those cards in hand I prefer thalia.

Now imagine this hand:

1 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Restoration Angel


Would you keep it? How would you play it? Imagine you think you opponent is on Esper Control, but you can expect some kind of aggro midrange or even some gush combo.

[rikimaru75]

Assumptions:
(1) Knowing that I am playing against an Esper Control player.
(2) They keep their initial seven.

If I am on the play, then I would keep this.
I would go peddle to the metal and run out Magus of the Moon with Mox Emerald, Mox Sapphire, and Plateau.
If Magus of the Moon gets countered, then at least you have 4 mana the following turn to go with Restoration Angel for beatdown.
You are the beatdown in this case right from the beginning.

If I am on the draw, then I would mulligan the hand. I predict a first turn thoughtseize on their turn one and since you have no initial pressure, it's an uphill climb.

[vaughnbros]

Now imagine this hand:

1 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Restoration Angel


Would you keep it? How would you play it? Imagine you think you opponent is on Esper Control, but you can expect some kind of aggro midrange or even some gush combo.

I keep this regardless of whether I'm on the play or draw.

On the play: Turn 1 magus is such a strong play that even without a follow up in hand its worth keeping.  If they force it I'm ahead on cards.  If they don't their mana base will likely be crippled.

On the draw: The most threatening thing that they can do on turn 1 is drop a bob or Jace and I have a swords for the bob and a turn 2 Resto angel for the Jace.  I most likely play whatever I top deck or the swords then drop the Magus on turn 2 giving me time to fetch out a basic plains.  I then have the option turn 3 to save my resto angel to protect my magus or drop it and aggro them with it.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Here's a tough one that has stumped me.  How do you play this out?  You are on the play.  You don't know what your opponent is playing.  Your hand is:

3x arid mesa
1x mox pearl
1x mox ruby
1x black lotus
1x phyrexian metamorph

I think you fetch plains, pay -2 and metamorph the ruby.  My friend says you crack lotus for U so you don't lose life and metamorph the plains while fetching a mountain.

How would you play this?  

[vaughnbros]

Here's a tough one that has stumped me.  How do you play this out?  You are on the play.  You don't know what your opponent is playing.  Your hand is:

3x arid mesa
1x mox pearl
1x mox ruby
1x black lotus
1x phyrexian metamorph

I think you fetch plains, pay -2 and metamorph the ruby.  My friend says you crack lotus for U so you don't lose life and metamorph the plains while fetching a mountain.

How would you play this?  

Mox, mox, land, lotus, metamorph copying lotus, pass.  Next turn top deck aladdins lamp.  Play land, crack both loti to cast the lamp.  Now you have an impulse every turn for 4 mana instead of drawing.

[StanleyAugust]

Here's a tough one that has stumped me.  How do you play this out?  You are on the play.  You don't know what your opponent is playing.  Your hand is:

3x arid mesa
1x mox pearl
1x mox ruby
1x black lotus
1x phyrexian metamorph

I think you fetch plains, pay -2 and metamorph the ruby.  My friend says you crack lotus for U so you don't lose life and metamorph the plains while fetching a mountain.

How would you play this?  

That was very funny.

How about this one: You mulligan to zero. You don't know what your opponent is on. How do you proceed on the play and on the draw?

[Guli]

I think I'll also play thalia to prevent any non-creature spell. Spirit has a faster clock, but if they play a confidant/snapcaster/revoker... thalia survives while spirit dies. If i had another land in hand I'd play spirit and next turn I'd play archetype, but with those cards in hand I prefer thalia.

Now imagine this hand:

1 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Restoration Angel


Would you keep it? How would you play it? Imagine you think you opponent is on Esper Control, but you can expect some kind of aggro midrange or even some gush combo.

Play the strand and Sapphire and look very confident representing a Mana Drain.

About Spirit and Thalia, the whole point is that the spirit is expendable. So if they trade a Dark Confidant for your Spirit, that is fine, you have another one. I would really like the Thalia to stick in this scenario, it will most likely win you the game. Let the Spirit lead the way I say, even if they topdeck a land, they would still have to topdeck more to get out of the Thalia's wrath.

[xouman]

Nice approach Guli! I was intrigued about playing MotM in T1, losing access to white mana, but most people (other than Guli) would play into instant magus. I had a *bad* experience once, when I opened with T1 magus just to see how my oponent played mox emerald and mox sapphire on his turn, and several times having the basic land in hand.

Now another hand:

It's the second match of the game, you are winning 1-0 against bug (you won first match with thalia, wastes, and revoker on drs). Opponent mulls to 6 and opens with Lotus into confidant and drs and a wasteland.

You mulliganed your first hand and get

1 karakas
1 arid mesa
1 wasteland
1 stp
1 gorilla shaman
1 driad militant

How do you play it?

[Guli]

Nice approach Guli! I was intrigued about playing MotM in T1, losing access to white mana, but most people (other than Guli) would play into instant magus. I had a *bad* experience once, when I opened with T1 magus just to see how my oponent played mox emerald and mox sapphire on his turn, and several times having the basic land in hand.

Now another hand:

It's the second match of the game, you are winning 1-0 against bug (you won first match with thalia, wastes, and revoker on drs). Opponent mulls to 6 and opens with Lotus into confidant and drs and a wasteland.

You mulliganed your first hand and get

1 karakas
1 arid mesa
1 wasteland
1 stp
1 gorilla shaman
1 driad militant

How do you play it?

Here we are in trouble, this is not a great hand. Best play is probably to fetch a plains and cast Dryad Millitant. I would then hope that my opponent puts a non basic and a deathrite in play so I can use Swords to Plowshares and Wasteland and follow it up with my other draws.

[xouman]

where do you aim your stp? confidant or drs?

[rikimaru75]

I think I'll also play thalia to prevent any non-creature spell. Spirit has a faster clock, but if they play a confidant/snapcaster/revoker... thalia survives while spirit dies. If i had another land in hand I'd play spirit and next turn I'd play archetype, but with those cards in hand I prefer thalia.

Now imagine this hand:

1 Flooded Strand
1 Plateau
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Restoration Angel


Would you keep it? How would you play it? Imagine you think you opponent is on Esper Control, but you can expect some kind of aggro midrange or even some gush combo.

Play the strand and Sapphire and look very confident representing a Mana Drain.

About Spirit and Thalia, the whole point is that the spirit is expendable. So if they trade a Dark Confidant for your Spirit, that is fine, you have another one. I would really like the Thalia to stick in this scenario, it will most likely win you the game. Let the Spirit lead the way I say, even if they topdeck a land, they would still have to topdeck more to get out of the Thalia's wrath.

Guli, that's very interesting. I did not consider that move.

Is this hand keepable on the draw as well?

[Guli]

where do you aim your stp? confidant or drs?

If you can keep him on 1 land for a while , I would stp on drs.

[vaughnbros]

Play the strand and Sapphire and look very confident representing a Mana Drain.

About Spirit and Thalia, the whole point is that the spirit is expendable. So if they trade a Dark Confidant for your Spirit, that is fine, you have another one. I would really like the Thalia to stick in this scenario, it will most likely win you the game. Let the Spirit lead the way I say, even if they topdeck a land, they would still have to topdeck more to get out of the Thalia's wrath.

The issue with both of these lines of play is that you are playing your best lock piece a turn later.  Magus is significantly worse on turn 2 compared with turn 1 as now they have had time to cast a threat or set up counter magic and, fetch a basic.  Thalia is significantly worse a turn later as you are delaying your waste by another turn.  

This deck has one advantage on the field.  That's all your lock pieces are also creatures and as such you can generate enormous amounts of tempo.  In both scenarios you are conceding this advantage.

Nice approach Guli! I was intrigued about playing MotM in T1, losing access to white mana, but most people (other than Guli) would play into instant magus. I had a *bad* experience once, when I opened with T1 magus just to see how my oponent played mox emerald and mox sapphire on his turn, and several times having the basic land in hand.

Now another hand:

It's the second match of the game, you are winning 1-0 against bug (you won first match with thalia, wastes, and revoker on drs). Opponent mulls to 6 and opens with Lotus into confidant and drs and a wasteland.

You mulliganed your first hand and get

1 karakas
1 arid mesa
1 wasteland
1 stp
1 gorilla shaman
1 driad militant

How do you play it?

Id be much more willing to take the gamble on the turn 1 magus then waiting till turn 2 and having the bluff work.  Too many times have I been burned bluffing in poker to know that it should only be used as a last resort.

Id definitely fetch basic plains and swords the bob.  I think that's my best bet for stabilizing.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Agreed, you stp the bob.

He'll have access to 2 mana next turn, but if you don't hit bob, you will be out-drawn into oblivion and he would get 2 mana on board anyway if he drew/dropped a 2nd land.

[Guli]

I completely missed the line 'opponent lands a bob'. Obviously you attempt to stp it immediately and take it from there.


About the turn 1 Magus, the deck is not really reliant on the Magus as badly as a deck that wants to run out a Moon asap. In fact, the moon in this deck is mostly for things like Bug, Workshop and Dredge. It has a much more controlling role rather than a lock peace (but it can lock out obviously). You don't rush out Moon effects at the cost of access to white mana.

[xouman]

Another situation (lol):

You win the dice and keep this hand against some kind of tezz deck:

1 arid mesa
1 tundra
1 mox sapphire
1 thalia
1 glowrider
1 phyrexian revoker
1 stony silence

You play tundra + thalia, that enters play (but the opponent hesitates, so he might have some counter or answer)

opponent draws, and plays

underground sea, mox sapphire

T2: you draw chalice of the void. What do you play?

[Guli]

Wait wait! I would lead with Stony here, because it suffers from a thorn effect. I had this kind of openers a lot, you play out the Stony and follow it up with Thalia if the Stony isn't countered. If the Stony is countered you play out Glowrider and that turn after that you play Thalia + Revoker in 1 go and usually the game should be sealed after that.

But ok, in your line, you play the Revoker naming the mox and then chalice @ 0 with remaining 1 mana.

[xouman]

Ummm, to tell the truth the hand is not real, and I thought of thalia before stony silence. I could have skipped mox and played driad T1, for example.

But in THIS current scenario, do you prefer T1 stony silence over thalia? There are just two cards that are better with thalia: lotus and mana crypt. Any other mox and most other non-creature spells (preordains, discarders...) are affected the same or even more with thalia. Is it about baiting countermagic with stony silence? Against tezz, stony silence is better than thalia in the long run, but thalia is better in the initial turns.

Revoker over glowrider? Even with chalice in hand, it's a hard call, it's probably better in front of a potential confidant, but you are closing your own mox.

[Guli]

The order of moves is important. Because I play a lot with these kinds of decks, some things started to come naturally. So my first reaction was that I would play the Stony here. Stony hits just as much believe me. It is not about baiting out counter magic here, the priority is to ensure a smooth resolution of your threats. This hand has a lot of threats and should normally not lose against broken plays unless the opponent has Force of Will and an instant kill. This means that you need to focus on optimizing (not prioritizing which threat is more important because they are all strong) the order in which you play out these threats with putting the mana cost of the cards in the equation. For me that opener is about smoothness. You don't want to play Thalia, then Glowrider and then wait several turns to play Stony because of your own sphere effects.

Stony>Thalia>Glowrider (if you topdeck a land) seems correct to me

Ummm, to tell the truth the hand is not real, and I thought of thalia before stony silence. I could have skipped mox and played driad T1, for example.

But in THIS current scenario, do you prefer T1 stony silence over thalia? There are just two cards that are better with thalia: lotus and mana crypt. Any other mox and most other non-creature spells (preordains, discarders...) are affected the same or even more with thalia. Is it about baiting countermagic with stony silence? Against tezz, stony silence is better than thalia in the long run, but thalia is better in the initial turns.

Revoker over glowrider? Even with chalice in hand, it's a hard call, it's probably better in front of a potential confidant, but you are closing your own mox.

I don't care about my own mox, I just don't want any other mox coming into play on the other side and I care about shutting down any mana they have in play, especially with Thalia in play.

[vaughnbros]

Id go with Thalia turn 1 then Stony turn 2 then go from there.  Thalia's sphere effect slows down all moxen by a turn, as well as making things like ancestral, preordain, ect. cost more.  You also have the third mana source to play the stony the next turn.  So there is really no disadvantage to playing her first.

[Guli]

So I think Dack Fayden will be a very strong addition to RUW Prison. Also I think with a little change to the mana base, True-Name Nemesis can be added instead of Brimaz and the likes to push in damage and also to have something that survives almost anything.

Getting double blue is a problem, but I believe with the basic island it should be possible with enough Tundra/Volcanic.

Link to replays for a match between RUW Prison vs Bomberman on Cockatrice

I added a link to the folder were I will store replays of games that are good examples. Tell me if they worked with the replay loader of Cockatrice.

My new RUW Prison list is like this:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Karakas
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby

2 Dack Fayden
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Dryad Militant
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Glowrider
1 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis

2 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Null Rod

SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 War Priest of Thune
SB: 1 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine


Thoughts?

[xouman]

Well, my answer is based in speculation and experience with other decks, not this build.

I think last changes have lost a bit of congruence or synergy, althought they are really good cards. Dack is really good, and it has a decent synergy with spirit of the labyrinth (+1 CA), but it's harder to cast under thalia/glowrider/lodestone. I love the card, but it seems *hard* to cast here. What can replace Dack? Magus of the moon, magus of the unseen, manic vandal, trinket mage...

TNN is powerful, but better coupled with equipments, and as you have said, UU can be tricky. getting a similar beater involves vendillion, exava, Instigator Gang...

I find difficult to justify tinker. I also read the Brian's play tinkering into canonist, but that's a -1CA play that probably costs lots of mana, and this deck does not play a BOMB (null rod, canonist or golem win games by themselves, but they are not bombs imho). I mean, I have always figured tinker as a card to cheat a big robot into play, or as a second vault. While it's true that it gives versatility, I'm not sold at all.

What about grand abolisher? Without caverns or counterspells, is the best way to annul opponent countermagic.

And brainstorm/sdt. This list has a bunch of silver bullets, but you don't wanna draw all of them. Probably sdt is better, since you are playing SotL, and sdt allows some CA with welder.


I like a lot the idea of mana denial from lots of angles, so I'm quite interested in your experiences with this deck