Aegis of the Gods

[xouman]

Aegis of the Gods      1 W
Enchantment Creature - Human Soldier
You have hexproof.

2/1


A better CC than True Believer, also is a human, and hexproof instead shroud (so you can cast ancestral to yourself). In addition it's an enchantment. I'd say it would see play, but maybe not much since true believer was already rare to see.

Added pic. Fixed toughness.
-MM

[gkraigher]

Another solid white guy, better than true believer because it can be searched for with enlightened tutor.  It's effect is nice, and would go in against combo decks (although isn't ethersworn canonist your primary target) and oath of druids (this is the deck it is best against).

[fsecco]

Yeah, they keep releasing good humans... it's clearly the best "tribe" ever. Now, True Believer is played mainly with Cavern of Souls, so the difference in cost is not a clear advantage for those decks.

That said, Believer is also 2/2, if that's relevant at all. The fact that this is an enchantment also makes it more vulnerable, even against Oath, since it can be Swan Song'ed. For me, the only benefit is Hexproof vs Shroud and Enlightened Tutor. I have no idea if that's enough.

Nice card, anyway.

[MaximumCDawg]

This card is good, much better than True Believer for the reasons stated in the opening post.

1. You get to Ancestral yourself.  In a pinch, you can also still Therapy yourself if you have something that really needs to be in the yard, but that's rare.

More importantly:

2. Costing 1W is huge.  Not only does it make it easier to splash, but it also comes down on turn 1 reliably off a land and any artifact acceleration.  That matters a ton against Storm decks or decks that want to rely on targeted discard to control you.

I feel like this is a legitimate option, the other one being Leyline of Sanctity, when you're looking for this kind of effect for your sideboard.  It might even merit a small inclusion in Humans maindeck because it also beats for 2. 

Journey into Nix continues to hit it out of the park with eternal playables.

[Protoaddict]

Being an artifact is a boon just as much as it's a downside if you play it right. It allows you to run Serra's sanctum and even something like sterling grove if you wanna get crafty. I would say vintage enchantress could be a thing except I think that mono white with Spirit of the labyrinth is probably preferable.

The real good bad of this card though:

BAD - I think the one toughness matters. There are so many one toughness dudes right now that people are going to start playing things like lava dart, Electrickery, Golgari Charm, etc. A lot of them are not targeted either so it is a bit scary to rely on this dude for protection.

Good - It allows you to windmill it turn one off any mox, which seems relevant against decks where this will really shine (storm)

[brianpk80]

It's definitely an improvement over True Believer for the purposes it needs to serve in Human sideboards, because of the casting cost.  The opposing decks where Believer is relevant aren't the kind of decks where the difference between 1 & 2 toughness matters; they tend to be nearly creatureless and use catch-all removal like Decay and Chain of Vapor.  For the purposes True Believer needed to serve, this card is as a practical matter a strict upgrade.  The card may be even more important in the future if Gifts Ungiven is unrestricted. 

[Guli]

I really think they could have given it an extra bonus to make it main deck material as a 4 off. Spirit had this, he is a 3/1 with something relevant, the bonus was the extra power. This could have had lifelink for example.

[fsecco]

I really think they could have given it an extra bonus to make it main deck material as a 4 off. Spirit had this, he is a 3/1 with something relevant, the bonus was the extra power. This could have had lifelink for example.

You're getting too spoiled by creature power creep hehehe

[TheWhiteDragon]

I really think they could have given it an extra bonus to make it main deck material as a 4 off. Spirit had this, he is a 3/1 with something relevant, the bonus was the extra power. This could have had lifelink for example.

You're getting too spoiled by creature power creep hehehe

I think they could have given him flying and indestructible too.  I mean, why stop at lifelink?

[Guli]

I was not kidding. You guys obviously are. I don't think that this set has 1 "hatebear" that is super good. There are some playable ones and I don't see a 2/1 giving you hexproof make it main deck like Thalia did. I rather have 1 really good new print than to have several 'decent' ones. Giving Aegis lifelink would at least give it 2 roles, good against combo decks, and still usefull in light of life loss due to things like Dark Confidant and City of Brass/Mana Con... I find your 'jokes' distastefull, you are better of listening to what I am trying to point out and understand that I am not interested in giving each hatebear 5 super good abilities.

[diopter]

I was not kidding. You guys obviously are. I don't think that this set has 1 "hatebear" that is super good. There are some playable ones and I don't see a 2/1 giving you hexproof make it main deck like Thalia did. I rather have 1 really good new print than to have several 'decent' ones. Giving Aegis lifelink would at least give it 2 roles, good against combo decks, and still usefull in light of life loss due to things like Dark Confidant and City of Brass/Mana Con... I find your 'jokes' distastefull, you are better of listening to what I am trying to point out and understand that I am not interested in giving each hatebear 5 super good abilities.

Word. Hatebear strategies are getting really powerful, and necessary to take seriously.

[Protoaddict]

Thematically, slapping lifelink on him makes no sense, so I don't know why that's a discussion. Putting lifelink on Thalia would have made her better too but since shes not a vampire I am not sure why we would do that. Really we should respond to the guy as he is, not as how we want him to be, and as he is I still think hes pretty damn playable.

We know he will be played in mono white hatebears between the main and the board in some numbers, and in GW in some quantity as well. My curiosity is if all these white enchantment hatebear creatures will force a new archetype at all since white has enlightened tutor and serra's sanctum.

[Guli]

Thematically, slapping lifelink on him makes no sense, so I don't know why that's a discussion. Putting lifelink on Thalia would have made her better too but since shes not a vampire I am not sure why we would do that. Really we should respond to the guy as he is, not as how we want him to be, and as he is I still think hes pretty damn playable.

We know he will be played in mono white hatebears between the main and the board in some numbers, and in GW in some quantity as well. My curiosity is if all these white enchantment hatebear creatures will force a new archetype at all since white has enlightened tutor and serra's sanctum.

Nobody said you should discuss anything.

Since I was the one that said they could give the bear another plus, I will reply to you here.

If you think he is playable, then why don't you go play it. I would not main deck this card, gaining hexproof is still a very narrow thing in my opinion. You can argument that the player gets a 2/1 body on top, but that is actually the weak spot. If this card would say, 'you get an emblem 'for the rest of the game you gain hexproof', then the effect woud have been more durable, even if you lose the body. Now I am not going to further confuse you, I am not interested in talking about 'if' scenario's. The point I was trying to make is that the 'you get hexproof' is not all that powerfull and that the creature could have been pushed further.

The reason I am saying these things is related to my view on the metagame. There are all kinds of broken things out there and I would not have it any other way, this is how we like our vintage. Every set is an opportunity and it would have been nicer if the Human Soldier for the classical  casting cost with a 2/1 body (see Thalia) would have a bit more than it got. There is nothing wrong in wanting this as a player who is interested in little dudes.

I repeat, my point is not about slapping lifelink on it, it is about giving aggro pilots meta-relevant cards. And this meta requires aggro control decks to have cards that are able to play multiple roles in multiple match ups. This is needed to survive and have a chance to top 8 in competitive environments.

Instead of hexproof on a player, I would have made a 2/2 Human Cleric for  that exiles an artifact  or enchantment when etb. That would help out against the Gods and Equipment, not break modern by any means, be very usefull in Legacy against Equipments, Counterbalance, Vials, Sneak Attack, .... It would also be a nice main deck card in Vintage to give aggro control a way to deal with Oath, Workshop and Blue (Blightsteel and Time Vault). It would be a card that can help in various match ups. That is my greatest point and if you want to reply to my post, please start there.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I don't think WotC is interested in taking a good fish card and making him SUPER good.  Thalia as a sphere is great.  Adding first strike was awesome, but making him legendary was the drawback that balanced it.  Could you imagine 4 non-legendary thalias?  Giving this guy hexproof to you  PLUS another ability with no drawback would push the envelope and make him a clear 4-of.  I think as is, he's great.  He's human, stops oath, storm, duress/seize, and other incidental cards like FoF and gifts.  That's not bad.  He's got a better cost than TB too.  What you want is a leonin-relic warder with a better cost, a better type, and an effect that isn't undone when he dies.  That's a really tall order, and I don't see WotC interested in making cards that push fish to the leaderboard in decks when it already has so many good options and regularly T8s or wins tourneys.

[Protoaddict]

The card does not need to be main deck able to be relevant, a player in the sideboard is still a vintage card.

Leyline of scantity has seen play before because it is uncounterable, and this in a humans build this will probably live in this is likely to be uncounterable most of the time as well, with added up and downside of being a body. Witchbane orb sees play, making oneself hexproof is a powerful thing.

Bluntly, I think it is pretty well balanced. If it was pushed anymore it would easily start invalidating other options but as it stands it has both ups and downs compared to other cards that occupy the same space as it like Leyline and True believer.

[Guli]

I don't think WotC is interested in taking a good fish card and making him SUPER good.  Thalia as a sphere is great.  Adding first strike was awesome, but making him legendary was the drawback that balanced it.  Could you imagine 4 non-legendary thalias?  Giving this guy hexproof to you  PLUS another ability with no drawback would push the envelope and make him a clear 4-of.  I think as is, he's great.  He's human, stops oath, storm, duress/seize, and other incidental cards like FoF and gifts.  That's not bad.  He's got a better cost than TB too.  What you want is a leonin-relic warder with a better cost, a better type, and an effect that isn't undone when he dies.  That's a really tall order, and I don't see WotC interested in making cards that push fish to the leaderboard in decks when it already has so many good options and regularly T8s or wins tourneys.

See this is completely wrong. It is a presumption. A false image, because in reality there is something else going on. About Aegis, the card is not as good as you are describing it. I am not ordering anything and I have no business to say what they should print. When I use examples of potential prints, my goal is to make a point, not to suggest a new print. But I do have the right to criticize what they have printed.

Since you used a metaphor, I will return the favor. I strongly believe my order was fair, if you think it is tall, you haven't been playing much aggro control competitively and do not understand the meta from aggro control's perspective. Top 8'ing is possible with aggro control, but much much harder than you think. You are facing deadly strategies, like turn 1 Oath, turn 1 Tinker, turn 1 Golem, turn 1 Bob. It is only fair that the aggro control/fish/beatdown deck has a turn 1 answer against these deadly turn 1 plays without having to run too narrow cards. Especially since combo decks are starting to use Abrupt Decay to get rid of any disruption.

I agree when I see people write, 'it is a fine card'. I am saying similar things. It is a decent card. But it is a sideboard card and True Believer doesn't see much sideboard play right now, do you guys think Aegis is that much better? Do you guys think that hexproof replacing shroud will change entire sideboards? Hear what I am saying, it will maybe (maybe...) be tried in some sideboards and it would have not mattered if it was true believer or this new guy. Hell, we can even argue if this is actually that much better, since Darkblast, Fire/Ice, 1/1's able to trade with it, ... are all arguments that give True Believer more points. Especially with the Mana Confluence on the radar, what does it really matter that True Believer costs   . And what deck will start running Aegis because he is easier to cast? Is it Bomberman (like they need more support lol)? or Something else? To conclude, an "improvement" on True Believer (a sideboard card) is not what aggro control needed right now.

Whether they care about vintage or not is their business, and while I would like it if they would care more, it is not my biggest issue here. My position will stand, especially on this board, I will analyze from a point of view that cares for Vintage and specifically aggro control. And I do not appreciate it when people keep using their fake hammers on me, trying to hush me down because they think that I am in big need of new super hate bears. Stop reducing what I am trying to say to something about me. I regularly have conversations about what the aggro control pillar needs right now with highly competent vintage players. And we all recognize that there is need for better equipped creatures to deal with today's meta issues.

[Stormanimagus]

@Guli - I 95% agree with your frustration here. The only thing I'll say in defense of Aegis being a far superior SB card to TB is the simple fact that he is a consistent turn 1 play off a mox. When Oath is a pretty consistent turn 1 play off a mox (and with a forbidden is a consistent activate on turn 2 play) it is nice to have another solid answer at the same speed. TB was hardly ever a turn 1 play and so this guy will pretty much always get the nod for me over TB for that simple, yet important, fact. Where he matters most, Aegis pulls a lot more weight than TB ever did. I still think he is only a SB card, but he helps to take care of the storm variants of oath that this deck is vulnerable to. That is a big deal. I mean, Guli, you were using that human that just kills enchantments in your SB for Oath. Surely this guy is better than that?

Anyway, that one critique of Guli's post aside, I am 100% on board with his opinion that creatures aren't really being printed at a sufficient power level to put them toe to toe with Big Blue or Shops. They are good decks, just not pillars as yet in the same way as those established archetypes.

-Storm

[Guli]

@Guli - I 95% agree with your frustration here. The only thing I'll say in defense of Aegis being a far superior SB card to TB is the simple fact that he is a consistent turn 1 play off a mox. When Oath is a pretty consistent turn 1 play off a mox (and with a forbidden is a consistent activate on turn 2 play) it is nice to have another solid answer at the same speed. TB was hardly ever a turn 1 play and so this guy will pretty much always get the nod for me over TB for that simple, yet important, fact. Where he matters most, Aegis pulls a lot more weight than TB ever did. I still think he is only a SB card, but he helps to take care of the storm variants of oath that this deck is vulnerable to. That is a big deal. I mean, Guli, you were using that human that just kills enchantments in your SB for Oath. Surely this guy is better than that?

Anyway, that one critique of Guli's post aside, I am 100% on board with his opinion that creatures aren't really being printed at a sufficient power level to put them toe to toe with Big Blue or Shops. They are good decks, just not pillars as yet in the same way as those established archetypes.

-Storm

I think War Priest is better than this versus Oath of Druids. Oath is not a real issue anyway with access to Decay, Cage, War Priest, Metamorph, Karakas, Thalia, Spirit... Oath becomes an issue when you have to fight off other match ups while also being forced to deal with Oath. And let's be honest here, with Thalia, Chalice, Misstep, Spirit, Canonist we don't need more hate to fight combo. The problem slot or 'the need' is not this guy, so I can't expect the problem to go away by replacing TB with Aegis. This is because the simple fact that this was not the problem to begin with, how can it be the solution? I made finals with Humans and I ran 0 True Believer because the card is simply not well placed right now. Aegis does not change this fact and I am not going to be happy about this print because others say so.

There is a real threat out there from Workshop, Bug, Grixis TV/Tinker, Oath, and Gush combo. Can someone please tell me where Aegis will be needed other than Oath? It is a sitting duck target and only a great follow up card to the real stuff like Thalia. And another problem is that you will have to make room in your sideboard in order to play 4 of these guys to make it a reliable turn 1 answer. That is 4 slots guys! It is not a small amount! Just because you can cast it turn 1 doesn't make it viable by the way. Oath decks can simply Decay the card and Oath anyway, just like they do with Cage.

[Stormanimagus]

@Guli - I 95% agree with your frustration here. The only thing I'll say in defense of Aegis being a far superior SB card to TB is the simple fact that he is a consistent turn 1 play off a mox. When Oath is a pretty consistent turn 1 play off a mox (and with a forbidden is a consistent activate on turn 2 play) it is nice to have another solid answer at the same speed. TB was hardly ever a turn 1 play and so this guy will pretty much always get the nod for me over TB for that simple, yet important, fact. Where he matters most, Aegis pulls a lot more weight than TB ever did. I still think he is only a SB card, but he helps to take care of the storm variants of oath that this deck is vulnerable to. That is a big deal. I mean, Guli, you were using that human that just kills enchantments in your SB for Oath. Surely this guy is better than that?

Anyway, that one critique of Guli's post aside, I am 100% on board with his opinion that creatures aren't really being printed at a sufficient power level to put them toe to toe with Big Blue or Shops. They are good decks, just not pillars as yet in the same way as those established archetypes.

-Storm

I think War Priest is better than this versus Oath of Druids. Oath is not a real issue anyway with access to Decay, Cage, War Priest, Metamorph, Karakas, Thalia, Spirit... Oath becomes an issue when you have to fight off other match ups while also being forced to deal with Oath. And let's be honest here, with Thalia, Chalice, Misstep, Spirit, Canonist we don't need more hate to fight combo. The problem slot or 'the need' is not this guy, so I can't expect the problem to go away by replacing TB with Aegis. This is because the simple fact that this was not the problem to begin with, how can it be the solution? I made finals with Humans and I ran 0 True Believer because the card is simply not well placed right now. Aegis does not change this fact and I am not going to be happy about this print because others say so.

There is a real threat out there from Workshop, Bug, Grixis TV/Tinker, Oath, and Gush combo. Can someone please tell me where Aegis will be needed other than Oath? It is a sitting duck target and only a great follow up card to the real stuff like Thalia. And another problem is that you will have to make room in your sideboard in order to play 4 of these guys to make it a reliable turn 1 answer. That is 4 slots guys! It is not a small amount! Just because you can cast it turn 1 doesn't make it viable by the way. Oath decks can simply Decay the card and Oath anyway, just like they do with Cage.

First off, Oath runs Decay these days? Man, I must be out of the loop cause I thought the only decks that consistently ran that card were creature decks and BUG decks. Secondly, I'm not saying this card is a godsend by any stretch of the imagination. Don't misunderstand. I simply think it is better than War Priest cause it shuts down Oath AND Tendrils all while coming down on turn 1. War Priest ONLY deals with Oath and, unless my memory is mistaken, doesn't Burning Oath run a pretty robust plan B in just Tendrils-ing you out? Also, this guy stops them from hurkly's-ing your cages if those are out. Again, not saying he's that good, but I'll be testing him out in my SB for Humans.dec for the time being.

As to your other points, I am definitely in agreement that Humans is still ill-equiped to fight shops. Until they print a removal card with a body to boot that probably won't change any time soon. Sorry, that's just the way it is for now.

-Storm

[Samoht]

First off, Oath runs Decay these days? Man, I must be out of the loop cause I thought the only decks that consistently ran that card were creature decks and BUG decks.
-Storm

Control Oath has been running 2-4 Decay since it got printed.

[brianpk80]

Guli's points are accurate and reasonable.  We all can see that for the very narrow purposes that True Believer serves (I haven't used him in ages), Aegis of the Gods is an upgrade.  The problem is that a slightly upgraded True Believer doesn't provide maindeck options that really advance the archetype.  If it had something that gave it utility in non-combo matches, like Lifelink or Flying, then we'd be heralding a very solid maindeck option now that in no way creates any imbalance in the metagame.  

He's also correct in pointing out the hypocrisy of belittling the idea that printing more multi-talented small creature options like a Flash Leonin Relic-Warder is too "unfair" (?) in a format where you can Oath up Griselbrand for   . How is "Untap this artifact: Win the game" acceptable but "Pay : Exile target artifact" broken?

On War Priest v. Believer for dispensing with Oath of Druids, War Priest is preferable.  It's usually easier to find removal for an annoying permanent like Grafdigger's Cage than to find a second Oath of Druids.

Thalia as a sphere is great.  Adding first strike was awesome, but making him legendary was the drawback that balanced it.  

Something above sounds very awry...

[Protoaddict]

He's also correct in pointing out the hypocrisy of belittling the idea that printing more multi-talented small creature options like a Flash Leonin Relic-Warder is too "unfair" (?) in a format where you can Oath up Griselbrand for   . How is "Untap this artifact: Win the game" acceptable but "Pay : Exile target artifact" broken?

It's not that it is unfair, it's that it is myopic to assume that WOTC will go out of the way and overpower a card for other formats to toss vintage a bone in a base set. I mean realistically if you want to make a creature that works for vintage it either needs to have a thoroughly unique effect (True Name) or needs to just be a statistically superior / Undercosted card in the same space as something else. This card is close to the second, the question is by how much.

Also this is not really the thread for it, because this is supposed to be a topic on the card we have at hand, not the card it could have been. If you don't feel like its playable that is perfectly fine and reasonable, but it does not mean that the discussion for those who do think it has a place needs to be killed in favor of a talk about what ifs.

Personally what I am now more interested in is the idea of an enchantmentbear deck. Could that be a thing?

4 Spirit of the void
4 Aegis of the Gods
4 Eidlion of Rhetoric

4 Land Tax
4 Rest in peace

4 Serra Scantum

I mean just shooting off the hip here but maybe this card is of value to a deck we have not yet seen?

[Stormanimagus]

He's also correct in pointing out the hypocrisy of belittling the idea that printing more multi-talented small creature options like a Flash Leonin Relic-Warder is too "unfair" (?) in a format where you can Oath up Griselbrand for   . How is "Untap this artifact: Win the game" acceptable but "Pay : Exile target artifact" broken?

It's not that it is unfair, it's that it is myopic to assume that WOTC will go out of the way and overpower a card for other formats to toss vintage a bone in a base set. I mean realistically if you want to make a creature that works for vintage it either needs to have a thoroughly unique effect (True Name) or needs to just be a statistically superior / Undercosted card in the same space as something else. This card is close to the second, the question is by how much.

Also this is not really the thread for it, because this is supposed to be a topic on the card we have at hand, not the card it could have been. If you don't feel like its playable that is perfectly fine and reasonable, but it does not mean that the discussion for those who do think it has a place needs to be killed in favor of a talk about what ifs.

Personally what I am now more interested in is the idea of an enchantmentbear deck. Could that be a thing?

4 Spirit of the void
4 Aegis of the Gods
4 Eidlion of Rhetoric

4 Land Tax
4 Rest in peace

4 Serra Scantum

I mean just shooting off the hip here but maybe this card is of value to a deck we have not yet seen?

I've been concocting a deck of this sort in my head for quite some time now. I think the deck would have to run some number of leylines as well to help pump up Serra's Sanctum and then also Replenish as a broken regrowth. I also ran Bazaar of Baghdad in my old list to help fuel for a huge Replenish but that may be waaaay too cute. I'm wondering, what says such an enchantment deck HAS to be mono-white. I'm intrigued by the mono-white approach, but could it splash a color? If so, which? Just curious as I've been working on the Sanctum.deck idea for a while now.

-Storm

[brianpk80]

It's not that it is unfair, it's that it is myopic to assume that WOTC will go out of the way and overpower a card for other formats to toss vintage a bone in a base set.

The card doesn't need to be designed for Vintage specifically.  2/1 Lifelink, you gain Hexproof isn't going to break any existing format, least of all Standard, where only real relevance of the static ability is preventing Thoughtseizes, the most damaging of which are going to come down Turn 1 before this guy is in play.   

[Stormanimagus]

Normally I'd withhold such a list until I'd wrecked people at a tourney with it, but I'm really out of the game so I'd rather see a deck like this clean up against unsuspecting foes in the capable hands of a competent pilot. I'm not sure this is really tuned enough yet, but I think its shops, oath and dredge matchup oughta be solid in theory as it fights those decks in a very unique way. I give you:

Sanctum

Lands (20):
4 Serra’s Sanctum
8 Plains
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas

Artifacts (2):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl

Enchantment Creatures (11):
4 Spirit Of The Labyrinth
2 Aegis Of The Gods
3 Eidolon Of Rhetoric
2 Heliod, God of the Sun

Enchantments (23):
2 Rest In Peace
4 Stony Silence
4 Land Tax
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Leyline Of Sanctity
4 Leyline Of The Void
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sorceries (4):
4 Replenish

Sideboard
1 Rest In Peace
4 Defense Grid
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Aegis Of The Gods
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Balance
2 Banishing Light
2 Planar Collapse

Now, on the surface, this obviously looks like a huge steaming pile, but look closer. It has 8 pseudo moxen if you combine them Serra's Sanctum. It has a kind of ancestral in Land Tax. It has an indestructible finisher in Heliod. Oh, and it has all those toolbox answers you need to broken blue and Oath coming down on turn 2 (or 1 off a sanctum + 2 Leyline opening grip). I'm not saying there aren't some gaping weaknesses here, but this is where I'd start with the idea I heard earlier of an Enchantment deck for vintage. Anyway, Discuss!

-Storm

[MaximumCDawg]

My theorycraft comments:

What is Land Tax really doing for you in this build?  Yea, if it goes off a few times you thin all of the plains out of your deck, but how relevant is that?  You have no way of abusing extra cards in your hand.

I don't like maxing out on Serra's Sanctum.  It is a pretty sweet T1 play with some Leylines, but you never ever want two in your opening grip.  Three seems like a better number to minimize mulligans.

I've seen people try to use Heliod, and I just don't see it.  He's expensive and hard to turn on, and when you do, your payoff is just a dork that eats Swords to Plowshares or gets bounced by Jace. 

What's wrong with branching out into a second color?  Blue gives you Thassa, who is a superior God to Heliod.  Black gives you the ability to hard cast your second Leyline and cards like the Abyss.  Red gives you Seal of Doom, green gives you Seal of Primordium...

[Stormanimagus]

My theorycraft comments:

What is Land Tax really doing for you in this build?  Yea, if it goes off a few times you thin all of the plains out of your deck, but how relevant is that?  You have no way of abusing extra cards in your hand.

I don't like maxing out on Serra's Sanctum.  It is a pretty sweet T1 play with some Leylines, but you never ever want two in your opening grip.  Three seems like a better number to minimize mulligans.

I've seen people try to use Heliod, and I just don't see it.  He's expensive and hard to turn on, and when you do, your payoff is just a dork that eats Swords to Plowshares or gets bounced by Jace. 

What's wrong with branching out into a second color?  Blue gives you Thassa, who is a superior God to Heliod.  Black gives you the ability to hard cast your second Leyline and cards like the Abyss.  Red gives you Seal of Doom, green gives you Seal of Primordium...

I disagree that you should run less than 4 Serra's Sanctum. It'll likely get wasted early so you want that second one to be available pretty early.

I think Heliod could potentially be the wrong choice, but do you have a better idea for a finisher that is ALSO and enchantment or would work well in the deck? This guy costs 4 and can't reliably be killed except by Swords (I have 4 Spirit Of The Labyrinth to hopefully deal with Jace as well as 4 O-Ring). To me that seems like a pretty hearty win-con that doesn't require support cards to be good. Just mana.

Thassa could be a good justification for a splash color but I'd really like to be able to get to 5 blue devotion and not just have to use her for her other abilities. This would require a departure from white that this deck doesn't want for obvious reasons (Serra's Sanctum only adding white mana is a big one).

As for Seal of Doom I just don't get how that is any better than O-Ring. It's a lot worse in most scenarios. It doesn't deal with BSC or Bob and it can't remove an Oath, Jace, Crucible or Smokestack the way O-Ring can. O-Ring is a catch all card in our colors so it doesn't exactly make sense to branch out to a second color for an inferior card. Now, if there are other niche cards in other colors that ARE superior I am all ears, but that ain't one of 'em. City Of Solitude intrigues me out of green as does Sterling Grove and Trace Of Abundance (If I ran Trace I could THEN be persuaded to run 3 Sanctums as they wouldn't be able to be wasted as often).

You may be correct on Land Tax, but in a mono-white build I don't see how Land Tax isn't a huge help. Deck thinning is no small thing when your deck has no REAL draw engine. Also, assuring yourself land-drops against shops is no small thing. I also like the fact that land tax is a turn 1 play that helps ramp up your Sanctum. Do you know of any other 1-drop white enchantment that could take its place? Is the only option to go to green for something like Root Maze? I'm curious to hear alternatives to Land Tax, because it is also the most "what?" sort of card to me as well. It just seemed to fill a role I needed to I included it. So, thoughts?

I hope this answers your questions.

-Storm

[serracollector]

I like the idea Storm, I was actually thinking that we might be able to make an Aggro Enchantress deck tho, something along the lines of:

4 x Boon satyr
4 x Courser of Kruphix
4 x Argothian Enchantress
4 x Eidolon of Countless Battles
4 x Sterling Grove (shrouded creatures is nice)
1 x Fastbond
1 x Crucible of Worlds (this, fastbond, and Courser provides the same combo as Zuran orb, while allowing you to still run Stony Silence)
XX Stony Silence
XX RIP
XX Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl
4 x Archetype of Courage
4 x Aegis of the Gods
XX Seal of Primordium/Cleansing
XX Oblivion Ring/Journey to Nowhere
4 x Enchantress's Presence

There are other "good" enchantment creatures like:




(I REALLY like this card)


AND



But obviously you would have to adjust manabases for such cards, but the Red and Black one that Ping opponents for 1 damage/life whenever an enchantment enters play obv could combo easily with Enchantresses, and Riptide Chimera is a Serendib, that allows you to bounce cheap enchantments and replay them to draw cards off Enchantress's/Presence etc.  Of course this build would have zero use for Spirit of the Labyrinth, but i personally like drawing cards anyways, so no boon here.

[msg67183]

My theorycraft comments:

What is Land Tax really doing for you in this build?  Yea, if it goes off a few times you thin all of the plains out of your deck, but how relevant is that?  You have no way of abusing extra cards in your hand.

I don't like maxing out on Serra's Sanctum.  It is a pretty sweet T1 play with some Leylines, but you never ever want two in your opening grip.  Three seems like a better number to minimize mulligans.

I've seen people try to use Heliod, and I just don't see it.  He's expensive and hard to turn on, and when you do, your payoff is just a dork that eats Swords to Plowshares or gets bounced by Jace. 

What's wrong with branching out into a second color?  Blue gives you Thassa, who is a superior God to Heliod.  Black gives you the ability to hard cast your second Leyline and cards like the Abyss.  Red gives you Seal of Doom, green gives you Seal of Primordium...

I disagree that you should run less than 4 Serra's Sanctum. It'll likely get wasted early so you want that second one to be available pretty early.

I think Heliod could potentially be the wrong choice, but do you have a better idea for a finisher that is ALSO and enchantment or would work well in the deck? This guy costs 4 and can't reliably be killed except by Swords (I have 4 Spirit Of The Labyrinth to hopefully deal with Jace as well as 4 O-Ring). To me that seems like a pretty hearty win-con that doesn't require support cards to be good. Just mana.

Thassa could be a good justification for a splash color but I'd really like to be able to get to 5 blue devotion and not just have to use her for her other abilities. This would require a departure from white that this deck doesn't want for obvious reasons (Serra's Sanctum only adding white mana is a big one).

As for Seal of Doom I just don't get how that is any better than O-Ring. It's a lot worse in most scenarios. It doesn't deal with BSC or Bob and it can't remove an Oath, Jace, Crucible or Smokestack the way O-Ring can. O-Ring is a catch all card in our colors so it doesn't exactly make sense to branch out to a second color for an inferior card. Now, if there are other niche cards in other colors that ARE superior I am all ears, but that ain't one of 'em. City Of Solitude intrigues me out of green as does Sterling Grove and Trace Of Abundance (If I ran Trace I could THEN be persuaded to run 3 Sanctums as they wouldn't be able to be wasted as often).

You may be correct on Land Tax, but in a mono-white build I don't see how Land Tax isn't a huge help. Deck thinning is no small thing when your deck has no REAL draw engine. Also, assuring yourself land-drops against shops is no small thing. I also like the fact that land tax is a turn 1 play that helps ramp up your Sanctum. Do you know of any other 1-drop white enchantment that could take its place? Is the only option to go to green for something like Root Maze? I'm curious to hear alternatives to Land Tax, because it is also the most "what?" sort of card to me as well. It just seemed to fill a role I needed to I included it. So, thoughts?

I hope this answers your questions.

-Storm

Would Sigil of the Empty Throne be a good finisher?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Tranquility variants FTW