Most consistent Dredge/Least bad matchups

[JPoJohnson]

Currently finishing off getting a playset of Bazaars and get into Vintage. Was wondering if you fine fellows would be able to give me a bit of help and background on the deck and matchups (:

I've read through the primer (as well as several others) and I have been trying to figure out what I want to build in regards to a deck that will match up to the wide meta on a decent level. Obviously I will tailor it against various metas that I will find myself going up against, but wanted to know if there was a "standard" decklist that wasn't too explosive, wasn't too anti-hate based, but just right. The list I found that I really liked was from a somewhat recent championship list listed below.

So... I realize Dredge has to fight through hate always, but is it still a powerful enough deck that it would be fun to play or will it be a painful, but powerful deck that can steal games here and there from time to time?

Lands (16)
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Petrified Fields
4 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Bloodghast
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug

4 Serum Powder
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Darkblast
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ancient Grudge

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
4 Unmask
3 Wispmare

Thanks for any and all help that you guys can provide (:

[vaughnbros]

So... I realize Dredge has to fight through hate always, but is it still a powerful enough deck that it would be fun to play or will it be a painful, but powerful deck that can steal games here and there from time to time?

Back when Mark Hornung won would champs with the deck it was probably the most powerful deck in the format.  Since then though two insanely powerful sideboard cards, grafdigger's cage and rest in peace, have been printed making some sideboarded match ups nearly unwinnable.  Other printings, such as deathrite shaman and griselbrand, have made main deck match ups worse as well.  You are largely at the mercy of your opponents card choices when playing a traditional dredge list because of this.

Most dredge players have resorted to playing less traditional sideboards to compensate for this.  I personally have been playing this list, http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45541.0, transforming into a psuedo fish list.  The last I saw Mark was playing Flamekin Harbingers and cavern of souls to tutor for uncounterable wispmares and ingot chewers.  There are also variants floating around sporting dark depths and hexmage.  These new takes on the deck are much funner to play games 2 and 3 as it becomes less of a battle against the hate cards that would usually prevent you from doing anything.  Overall, the archetype is still relatively unexplored compared to other the pillars of vintage so if you're just getting into the format and are looking to brew something that can be good this is probably the place to be.

Good luck.

[JPoJohnson]

So... I realize Dredge has to fight through hate always, but is it still a powerful enough deck that it would be fun to play or will it be a painful, but powerful deck that can steal games here and there from time to time?

Back when Mark Hornung won would champs with the deck it was probably the most powerful deck in the format.  Since then though two insanely powerful sideboard cards, grafdigger's cage and rest in peace, have been printed making some sideboarded match ups nearly unwinnable.  Other printings, such as deathrite shaman and griselbrand, have made main deck match ups worse as well.  You are largely at the mercy of your opponents card choices when playing a traditional dredge list because of this.

Most dredge players have resorted to playing less traditional sideboards to compensate for this.  I personally have been playing this list, http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45541.0, transforming into a psuedo fish list.  The last I saw Mark was playing Flamekin Harbingers and cavern of souls to tutor for uncounterable wispmares and ingot chewers.  There are also variants floating around sporting dark depths and hexmage.  These new takes on the deck are much funner to play games 2 and 3 as it becomes less of a battle against the hate cards that would usually prevent you from doing anything.  Overall, the archetype is still relatively unexplored compared to other the pillars of vintage so if you're just getting into the format and are looking to brew something that can be good this is probably the place to be.

Good luck.

So looking at tournament results, I see Dredge pop up on a fairly regular basis (although not a dominating amount). Is this because variance simply favours the deck because it is fairly popular and powerful and it's able to beat the hate from time to time enough to top events or is it because they can beat the hate (the most common list I see topping is a cagebreaker variation nowadays).

[vaughnbros]

So looking at tournament results, I see Dredge pop up on a fairly regular basis (although not a dominating amount). Is this because variance simply favours the deck because it is fairly popular and powerful and it's able to beat the hate from time to time enough to top events or is it because they can beat the hate (the most common list I see topping is a cagebreaker variation nowadays).

It can still do well, but as I said you are at the mercy of your opponent.  It will do well when it gears its anti-hate perfectly as in this instance,http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1879, where the winning dredge list is loaded with 4 claims, 4 chain of vapor, 3 darkblast, and 2 ingot chewers against a field of cages and jailors.  Or when none of their opponents commit enough to their board to stop the deck as in the instance, http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1861. 

Proportionally it top 8's far less than it is played though, and wins tournaments even less frequently.  The two traditional lists, dread return and non dread return, have remained unchanged for nearly 3 years now making them rather easy for well prepared experienced opponents to combat.

[JPoJohnson]

So looking at tournament results, I see Dredge pop up on a fairly regular basis (although not a dominating amount). Is this because variance simply favours the deck because it is fairly popular and powerful and it's able to beat the hate from time to time enough to top events or is it because they can beat the hate (the most common list I see topping is a cagebreaker variation nowadays).

It can still do well, but as I said you are at the mercy of your opponent.  It will do well when it gears its anti-hate perfectly as in this instance,http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1879, where the winning dredge list is loaded with 4 claims, 4 chain of vapor, 3 darkblast, and 2 ingot chewers against a field of cages and jailors.  Or when none of their opponents commit enough to their board to stop the deck as in the instance, http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1861.  

Proportionally it top 8's far less than it is played though, and wins tournaments even less frequently.  The two traditional lists, dread return and non dread return, have remained unchanged for nearly 3 years now making them rather easy for well prepared experienced opponents to combat.

So if I understand you correctly:

1. The deck is played more than the top listings would dictate suggests that people either play it subpar on a regular basis or that sometimes the hate is difficult to overcome match after match

2. If I end up building the deck and playing it, I need to realize that variance will catch up with me from time to time and will get destroyed out of tournaments. If this is a big buzz-kill I should pass on the deck

3. Cagebreaker decks are probably the strongest decks against a wide-spread field of decks

4. Even though it doesn't always top, it's power level should not be underestimated.


I realize Nature's Claim CAN be a dead draw in the first game, but do you think it's versatility makes it a better main deck option than the ingot chewers since it can also hit Void and RiP even if it won't get you some zombie synergy? I just don't see a plethora of decks running either of those main beyond Dredge maybe.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Something like BUg Dragon/reanimator might actually be better at this point.

Is there a reason why you'd go into Vintage with Dredge instead of UR Delver/Merfolk/Doomsday?

While it may look inexpensive on the surface, 10 proxy UR Delver is powerful (Steve plays it) and affordable.

Ie. 2 Moxen, Lotus, Time Walk, Ancestral, 4x Volcanic, 1x Scalding Tarn proxied.  Then you need to own 3x Tarn, 4x Force of Will, and maybe some Wastelands. The rest is a pile of inexpensive cards and/or modern staples.

[JPoJohnson]

Something like BUg Dragon/reanimator might actually be better at this point.

Is there a reason why you'd go into Vintage with Dredge instead of UR Delver/Merfolk/Doomsday?

While it may look inexpensive on the surface, 10 proxy UR Delver is powerful (Steve plays it) and affordable.

Ie. 2 Moxen, Lotus, Time Walk, Ancestral, 4x Volcanic, 1x Scalding Tarn proxied.  Then you need to own 3x Tarn, 4x Force of Will, and maybe some Wastelands. The rest is a pile of inexpensive cards and/or modern staples.

I already own 4 Proxy Merfolk, 5 Proxy UR Delver and 5 Proxy URx Landstill. I want to have a strong competitive deck that I can play at sanctioned events and am trying to get as much insight as I can on those options (:

That and I refuse to play White Trash. Its consistency issues make it very anti-fun. Having said that, what makes BUG Dragon/Reanimator better right now? Is it that it is more explosive and can outpace hate better than non-DR Dredge?

[AmbivalentDuck]

What makes BUG Dragon/Reanimator better right now? Is it that it is more explosive and can outpace hate better than non-DR Dredge?

Show and Tell and Oath of Druids are legitimate responses to grave hate. Griselbrand is just really really good in a format with Moxen and Lotus.

As to sanctioned play, why bother? Who would want to play a tabletop game where your odds of winning are dictated by your willingness to invest money into a particular commodity? That's like making people buy certain stocks to use as the play money in Monopoly. It's cool if people want to spend the money, but it's stupid to dictate that the price of "full" entry is locating and purchasing a Black Lotus.

[Varal]

Something like BUg Dragon/reanimator might actually be better at this point.

Is there a reason why you'd go into Vintage with Dredge instead of UR Delver/Merfolk/Doomsday?

While it may look inexpensive on the surface, 10 proxy UR Delver is powerful (Steve plays it) and affordable.

Ie. 2 Moxen, Lotus, Time Walk, Ancestral, 4x Volcanic, 1x Scalding Tarn proxied.  Then you need to own 3x Tarn, 4x Force of Will, and maybe some Wastelands. The rest is a pile of inexpensive cards and/or modern staples.

I already own 4 Proxy Merfolk, 5 Proxy UR Delver and 5 Proxy URx Landstill. I want to have a strong competitive deck that I can play at sanctioned events and am trying to get as much insight as I can on those options (:

That and I refuse to play White Trash. Its consistency issues make it very anti-fun. Having said that, what makes BUG Dragon/Reanimator better right now? Is it that it is more explosive and can outpace hate better than non-DR Dredge?

For the same price as Bazaar of Baghdad you can buy 2-3 non-Lotus piece of power that you'll be able to play in 70% of the decks you can ever want to build instead of just one.

I don't know if it's common everywhere but around here Dredge players are frowned upon and will have a tough time to find playtest partner. Do you want to be an outcast?

The deck is worth around $1000 and is often the only option for many player. They will thus play the deck even if the meta is overadapted to it. Since the deck always have a part of the field, people will almost always be prepared fo it especially in Vintage tournament.

Almost none of the cards are transferable to other decks unless you want to play Dragon, the most expensive deck in the format.

[msg67183]

Something like BUg Dragon/reanimator might actually be better at this point.

Is there a reason why you'd go into Vintage with Dredge instead of UR Delver/Merfolk/Doomsday?

While it may look inexpensive on the surface, 10 proxy UR Delver is powerful (Steve plays it) and affordable.

Ie. 2 Moxen, Lotus, Time Walk, Ancestral, 4x Volcanic, 1x Scalding Tarn proxied.  Then you need to own 3x Tarn, 4x Force of Will, and maybe some Wastelands. The rest is a pile of inexpensive cards and/or modern staples.

I already own 4 Proxy Merfolk, 5 Proxy UR Delver and 5 Proxy URx Landstill. I want to have a strong competitive deck that I can play at sanctioned events and am trying to get as much insight as I can on those options (:

That and I refuse to play White Trash. Its consistency issues make it very anti-fun. Having said that, what makes BUG Dragon/Reanimator better right now? Is it that it is more explosive and can outpace hate better than non-DR Dredge?

For the same price as Bazaar of Baghdad you can buy 2-3 non-Lotus piece of power that you'll be able to play in 70% of the decks you can ever want to build instead of just one.

I don't know if it's common everywhere but around here Dredge players are frowned upon and will have a tough time to find playtest partner. Do you want to be an outcast?

The deck is worth around $1000 and is often the only option for many player. They will thus play the deck even if the meta is overadapted to it. Since the deck always have a part of the field, people will almost always be prepared fo it especially in Vintage tournament.

Almost none of the cards are transferable to other unless you want to play Dragon, the most expensive deck in the format.

I think power has gone up with other cards prices. I think a Pearl is around $600 now lol it's crazy

[JPoJohnson]

Something like BUg Dragon/reanimator might actually be better at this point.

Is there a reason why you'd go into Vintage with Dredge instead of UR Delver/Merfolk/Doomsday?

While it may look inexpensive on the surface, 10 proxy UR Delver is powerful (Steve plays it) and affordable.

Ie. 2 Moxen, Lotus, Time Walk, Ancestral, 4x Volcanic, 1x Scalding Tarn proxied.  Then you need to own 3x Tarn, 4x Force of Will, and maybe some Wastelands. The rest is a pile of inexpensive cards and/or modern staples.

I already own 4 Proxy Merfolk, 5 Proxy UR Delver and 5 Proxy URx Landstill. I want to have a strong competitive deck that I can play at sanctioned events and am trying to get as much insight as I can on those options (:

That and I refuse to play White Trash. Its consistency issues make it very anti-fun. Having said that, what makes BUG Dragon/Reanimator better right now? Is it that it is more explosive and can outpace hate better than non-DR Dredge?

For the same price as Bazaar of Baghdad you can buy 2-3 non-Lotus piece of power that you'll be able to play in 70% of the decks you can ever want to build instead of just one.

I don't know if it's common everywhere but around here Dredge players are frowned upon and will have a tough time to find playtest partner. Do you want to be an outcast?

The deck is worth around $1000 and is often the only option for many player. They will thus play the deck even if the meta is overadapted to it. Since the deck always have a part of the field, people will almost always be prepared fo it especially in Vintage tournament.

Almost none of the cards are transferable to other unless you want to play Dragon, the most expensive deck in the format.

This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out, my friend - If it is worth investing the money in this direction or it is not worth investing in this direction, not that I'm die-hard want to buy dredge. Having said that, I have nothing against dredge since I play it in Legacy and enjoy the playstyle and it is indeed a powerful deck. Just trying to figure out what it is that I want to play in the format and then go for it (:

[WhiteLotus]

Something like BUg Dragon/reanimator might actually be better at this point.

Is there a reason why you'd go into Vintage with Dredge instead of UR Delver/Merfolk/Doomsday?

While it may look inexpensive on the surface, 10 proxy UR Delver is powerful (Steve plays it) and affordable.

Ie. 2 Moxen, Lotus, Time Walk, Ancestral, 4x Volcanic, 1x Scalding Tarn proxied.  Then you need to own 3x Tarn, 4x Force of Will, and maybe some Wastelands. The rest is a pile of inexpensive cards and/or modern staples.

I already own 4 Proxy Merfolk, 5 Proxy UR Delver and 5 Proxy URx Landstill. I want to have a strong competitive deck that I can play at sanctioned events and am trying to get as much insight as I can on those options (:

That and I refuse to play White Trash. Its consistency issues make it very anti-fun. Having said that, what makes BUG Dragon/Reanimator better right now? Is it that it is more explosive and can outpace hate better than non-DR Dredge?

For the same price as Bazaar of Baghdad you can buy 2-3 non-Lotus piece of power that you'll be able to play in 70% of the decks you can ever want to build instead of just one.

I don't know if it's common everywhere but around here Dredge players are frowned upon and will have a tough time to find playtest partner. Do you want to be an outcast?

The deck is worth around $1000 and is often the only option for many player. They will thus play the deck even if the meta is overadapted to it. Since the deck always have a part of the field, people will almost always be prepared fo it especially in Vintage tournament.

Almost none of the cards are transferable to other unless you want to play Dragon, the most expensive deck in the format.

This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out, my friend - If it is worth investing the money in this direction or it is not worth investing in this direction, not that I'm die-hard want to buy dredge. Having said that, I have nothing against dredge since I play it in Legacy and enjoy the playstyle and it is indeed a powerful deck. Just trying to figure out what it is that I want to play in the format and then go for it (:

Dredge is certainly powerful but it's very linear to play and people don't like playing against it because it feels like it's not a real deck that you can't interact with in a meaningful way. It shines in game 1 but post sideboarding your opponent if well prepared will brutally punish you and in most cases it will feel like you never really were in the game so pretty frustrating. Basically there is always one player that is in an unfun position.

Bazaar of baghdad is a niche card that doesn't go in a lot of decks, so it's probably not worth to invest into it directly I think you're probably better off trying to acquire power nine cards.

If you want something powerful with vintage feel I suggest you try playing something like Mana drain combo control or ritual combo, those decks are very powerfull, very skill intensive and infinitely more resilient than dredge. Also the expensive stuff needed for those decks are interchangeable with many decks, Meaning that you'll be able to play a broad array of different decks without spending a lot of extra cash the archetype related staples are usually cheap (blightsteel colossus, oath of druids, necropotence...).

[AmbivalentDuck]

Doomsday is plenty strong off just Lotus and Ancestral, and those are strong stepping stones to other blue decks if you want to branch out. Dredge isn't that good any more and it's never been fun to play.

[JPoJohnson]

Something like BUg Dragon/reanimator might actually be better at this point.

Is there a reason why you'd go into Vintage with Dredge instead of UR Delver/Merfolk/Doomsday?

While it may look inexpensive on the surface, 10 proxy UR Delver is powerful (Steve plays it) and affordable.

Ie. 2 Moxen, Lotus, Time Walk, Ancestral, 4x Volcanic, 1x Scalding Tarn proxied.  Then you need to own 3x Tarn, 4x Force of Will, and maybe some Wastelands. The rest is a pile of inexpensive cards and/or modern staples.

I already own 4 Proxy Merfolk, 5 Proxy UR Delver and 5 Proxy URx Landstill. I want to have a strong competitive deck that I can play at sanctioned events and am trying to get as much insight as I can on those options (:

That and I refuse to play White Trash. Its consistency issues make it very anti-fun. Having said that, what makes BUG Dragon/Reanimator better right now? Is it that it is more explosive and can outpace hate better than non-DR Dredge?

For the same price as Bazaar of Baghdad you can buy 2-3 non-Lotus piece of power that you'll be able to play in 70% of the decks you can ever want to build instead of just one.

I don't know if it's common everywhere but around here Dredge players are frowned upon and will have a tough time to find playtest partner. Do you want to be an outcast?

The deck is worth around $1000 and is often the only option for many player. They will thus play the deck even if the meta is overadapted to it. Since the deck always have a part of the field, people will almost always be prepared fo it especially in Vintage tournament.

Almost none of the cards are transferable to other unless you want to play Dragon, the most expensive deck in the format.

This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out, my friend - If it is worth investing the money in this direction or it is not worth investing in this direction, not that I'm die-hard want to buy dredge. Having said that, I have nothing against dredge since I play it in Legacy and enjoy the playstyle and it is indeed a powerful deck. Just trying to figure out what it is that I want to play in the format and then go for it (:

Dredge is certainly powerful but it's very linear to play and people don't like playing against it because it feels like it's not a real deck that you can't interact with in a meaningful way. It shines in game 1 but post sideboarding your opponent if well prepared will brutally punish you and in most cases it will feel like you never really were in the game so pretty frustrating. Basically there is always one player that is in an unfun position.

Bazaar of baghdad is a niche card that doesn't go in a lot of decks, so it's probably not worth to invest into it directly I think you're probably better off trying to acquire power nine cards.

If you want something powerful with vintage feel I suggest you try playing something like Mana drain combo control or ritual combo, those decks are very powerfull, very skill intensive and infinitely more resilient than dredge. Also the expensive stuff needed for those decks are interchangeable with many decks, Meaning that you'll be able to play a broad array of different decks without spending a lot of extra cash the archetype related staples are usually cheap (blightsteel colossus, oath of druids, necropotence...).

Yeah, this seems to be the feedback I've gotten from a lot of past dredge players. I suppose the next step for me (I'm just waiting for my mana drains and LoA to arrive right now) is to sell of my current bazaars and aim to get a power card or two. Thanks guys (: