Um.. Judge.. Foil.. FORCE OF WILL

[Soly]

BOOM.

Added pic.
-MM

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm curious to see if this goes for more or less than the Alliances version. My bet is actually that it goes for less. This sees only sparse play in Commander, and since foil duals will never be printed it's something of a "marked card" in Legacy. My suspicion is that this isn't unlike Imperial Recruiter or Karakas. Huge spike at print, but falls off to 50-75% of the original. Great art, though.

[bactgudz]

I'm curious to see if this goes for more or less than the Alliances version. My bet is actually that it goes for less. This sees only sparse play in Commander, and since foil duals will never be printed it's something of a "marked card" in Legacy. My suspicion is that this isn't unlike Imperial Recruiter or Karakas. Huge spike at print, but falls off to 50-75% of the original. Great art, though.

WHAT!!! No way this goes for less. That's insanity.  If they don't put these in judge packs and only distribute how they stated they did in the article, there will be less than 1,500 of them.

[Prospero]

I think they'll be a fortune, and I think they'll maintain their value, but man oh man was this done poorly.  Old borders were absolutely necessary on this foil.  The original art is so unbelievably iconic, and they were free to use that.  Foil old bordered Force of Will with the Terese Nielsen art would have been so much nicer than this.  The new borders are a train wreck.  The new art will never replace the Force of Will that we all know and love.

So, yeah, they'll be a fortune, but this could have been handled so much better.  I'm disappointed.

[Templar]

I don't love the art at all, but because it is foil and people love to pimp out their decks, it will probably be a tough get.

[bactgudz]

Even if it ends up being a widely distributed judge packet foil, you'll be able to trade 1 for a full playset of Alliances easily.

[diopter]

I feel like I've seen this art before (or similar) on another counterspell variant. Eerie.

Any road, original art is way more badass imo. I never really noticed until looking at Prospero's avatar but is it the same barbarian dude in Force of Will and Hammer of Bogardan?

[JPettie]

I think they'll be a fortune, and I think they'll maintain their value, but man oh man was this done poorly.  Old borders were absolutely necessary on this foil.  The original art is so unbelievably iconic, and they were free to use that.  Foil old bordered Force of Will with the Terese Nielsen art would have been so much nicer than this.  The new borders are a train wreck.  The new art will never replace the Force of Will that we all know and love.

So, yeah, they'll be a fortune, but this could have been handled so much better.  I'm disappointed.

I 100% agree, Terese Nielson's art is both iconic and extremely well done. I just hate seeing them ignore it and use updated border/art on a card we've all come to know and love.
But I am okay with this however:

Oh how I love Dredge.

[KrauserKrauser]

I feel like I've seen this art before (or similar) on another counterspell variant. Eerie.

Any road, original art is way more badass imo. I never really noticed until looking at Prospero's avatar but is it the same barbarian dude in Force of Will and Hammer of Bogardan?

This art was the Legacy Championship prize in 2011.

Not only is it the same barbarian, but both were created using Terese Nielsen as the model.  Ron and Terese are brother/sister and you can see collaboration between them from time to time.

Foil Alliances Forces would have been epic, but I'm not 100% on whether or not that would fall under the old royalty model and increase cost to Wizards.  I know it changed by Mirage, but things were a bit murky when Alliances came along.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Even if it ends up being a widely distributed judge packet foil, you'll be able to trade 1 for a full playset of Alliances easily.

Judge foils tend to be worth less than the original unless it's a commander staple. Ie. Vindicate and fetchlands.

[JPoJohnson]

Even if it ends up being a widely distributed judge packet foil, you'll be able to trade 1 for a full playset of Alliances easily.

Judge foils tend to be worth less than the original unless it's a commander staple. Ie. Vindicate and fetchlands.

I have to agree and think it's going to go for more than the Alliances print. There are quite a few people that have already 'pimped' their FoW with getting them altered, but there are a lot of players nowadays that like foiling out decks and this would be a highly contested one. Plus I feel like, as stated above, there isn't going to be a plethora of them printed since they're only going to a grouping of the current judges.

[Ten-Ten]

I think they'll be a fortune, and I think they'll maintain their value, but man oh man was this done poorly.  Old borders were absolutely necessary on this foil.  The original art is so unbelievably iconic, and they were free to use that.  Foil old bordered Force of Will with the Terese Nielsen art would have been so much nicer than this.  The new borders are a train wreck.  The new art will never replace the Force of Will that we all know and love.

So, yeah, they'll be a fortune, but this could have been handled so much better.  I'm disappointed.

Qft

Almost puked at the counterspell look alike FoW.

I do like the sword and the Elesh Norn, though. Mental misstep would be so cool if it had the phyrexian txt also.

[Nefarias]

Even if it ends up being a widely distributed judge packet foil, you'll be able to trade 1 for a full playset of Alliances easily.

Judge foils tend to be worth less than the original unless it's a commander staple. Ie. Vindicate and fetchlands.

You have to be trolling, but I'll bite. You're comparing foils to other foils. Both of those come in set foil, which is infinitely more "pimp." This is the ONLY foil Force of Will. Tempest Wasteland to foil Wasteland is a better comparison (the price different of which is 300%+). Or if you prefer examples without multiple foil printings, Oath of Druids, Gaea's Cradle, and Intuition.

For those saying the art is familiar, it is also the version of Force of Will that's in the MODO Cube if you've ever played that.

[Soly]

Even if it ends up being a widely distributed judge packet foil, you'll be able to trade 1 for a full playset of Alliances easily.

Judge foils tend to be worth less than the original unless it's a commander staple. Ie. Vindicate and fetchlands.

You have to be trolling, but I'll bite. You're comparing foils to other foils. Both of those come in set foil, which is infinitely more "pimp." This is the ONLY foil Force of Will. Tempest Wasteland to foil Wasteland is a better comparison (the price different of which is 300%+). Or if you prefer examples without multiple foil printings, Oath of Druids, Gaea's Cradle, and Intuition.

For those saying the art is familiar, it is also the version of Force of Will that's in the MODO Cube if you've ever played that.

Personally, I think guys like Mith that foil everything will prefer the foil version.


When I was japping out everything, Japanese > better looking English.  (as in, I had a 5th Ed. WB necropotence because it was japanese, even though the Ice Age one is better)

[vaughnbros]

These aren't normal judge foils right now and are only being given to judges who are level 2+ so they are substantially rarer.  They will fetch a pretty penny unless they are eventually going to be put given out to other judges as well.

[Varal]

They say they'll be given to judges that accredited other judges but they don't say it will be the only way they're distributed or how many cards each judge will receive.

[JACO]

Even if it ends up being a widely distributed judge packet foil, you'll be able to trade 1 for a full playset of Alliances easily.

Judge foils tend to be worth less than the original unless it's a commander staple. Ie. Vindicate and fetchlands.

Judge foils tend to be worth less than FOIL versions of the original. The Judge foil versions of cards where no other foil version exists like Survival of the Fittest, Intuition, and Oath of Druids are worth multiple times more than the original. There is no comparison if history is any lesson.

That being said, there is zero chance that this will be worth less than the Alliances version both short and long term. Short term this will be at least double the price of Alliances, and long term depends entirely upon how many are distributed, and if we see other similar versions in future Commander or other boxed products. The demand for foil Forces will be quite high. This will not be an affordable card, unfortunately. I still wish they would just do Grand Prix promos like Wasteland and Force of Will (let alone as part of boxed product) instead of shitty cards like All is Dust if they actually wanted to increase the ready supply of these in-demand cards.

[Mith]

Personally, I think guys like Mith that foil everything will prefer the foil version.

Right on...I'll be buying as many as I can get my hands on as soon as they start popping up 

These are not JUST the first foil print of the card, but they've limited the distribution method beyond even regular Judge Foils...expect these to be worth a pretty penny both now and in the long run.

No worries if you don't agree, just sell them to me 

[AmbivalentDuck]

Even if it ends up being a widely distributed judge packet foil, you'll be able to trade 1 for a full playset of Alliances easily.

Judge foils tend to be worth less than the original unless it's a commander staple. Ie. Vindicate and fetchlands.

You have to be trolling, but I'll bite. You're comparing foils to other foils. Both of those come in set foil, which is infinitely more "pimp." This is the ONLY foil Force of Will. Tempest Wasteland to foil Wasteland is a better comparison (the price different of which is 300%+). Or if you prefer examples without multiple foil printings, Oath of Druids, Gaea's Cradle, and Intuition.

On the other hand, Imperial Recruiter and Karakas.

[quicksilvervii]

On the other hand, Imperial Recruiter and Karakas.

To be fair, Imperial Recruiter was in a product with a run far larger than FoW will be and played less.

Karakas is not a 4 of (FOW is a 4 of in nearly every deck with U in it) and the run will be smaller.

I expect it to be north of both of these.

[Samoht]

On the other hand, Imperial Recruiter and Karakas.

To be fair, Imperial Recruiter was in a product with a run far larger than FoW will be and played less.

Karakas is not a 4 of (FOW is a 4 of in nearly every deck with U in it) and the run will be smaller.

I expect it to be north of both of these.

Helene has stated this isn't the only way to get the card.

[boggyb]

I still wish they would just do Grand Prix promos like Wasteland and Force of Will (let alone as part of boxed product) instead of shitty cards like All is Dust if they actually wanted to increase the ready supply of these in-demand cards.

Can you expand on this? It's a deep issue: do they want to increase supply? Or actively not? Are they agnostic? I mean what the fuck? Why is Wizards content watching the price of these staples soar? Are they watching at all? I am very confused. I ask you because you spend a good deal of your time in this realm.

[JACO]

I still wish they would just do Grand Prix promos like Wasteland and Force of Will (let alone as part of boxed product) instead of shitty cards like All is Dust if they actually wanted to increase the ready supply of these in-demand cards.

Can you expand on this? It's a deep issue: do they want to increase supply? Or actively not? Are they agnostic? I mean what the fuck? Why is Wizards content watching the price of these staples soar? Are they watching at all? I am very confused. I ask you because you spend a good deal of your time in this realm.

I addressed some of this in an article over 4 years ago, including possible suggestions of cards that are not on the Reserved List that could easily be reprinted in Standard legal sets, let alone special products.

I think ultimately it's just poor planning on WotC's part. I should probably write an updated article with strategies for getting more stuff to the players in a timely fashion, but there is zero reason that any non-Reserved List card should be over $25 if WotC didn't have their heads directly up their asses (see MTGO for constant evidence of this). With the increased demand for older cards for Eternal formats and WotC's lack of response to these demands prices have really taken off, and with so many avenues for reprints and special prints to get into the players' hands WotC has done an abysmal job of catering to their community in this regard.

[Eastman]

I still wish they would just do Grand Prix promos like Wasteland and Force of Will (let alone as part of boxed product) instead of shitty cards like All is Dust if they actually wanted to increase the ready supply of these in-demand cards.

Can you expand on this? It's a deep issue: do they want to increase supply? Or actively not? Are they agnostic? I mean what the fuck? Why is Wizards content watching the price of these staples soar? Are they watching at all? I am very confused. I ask you because you spend a good deal of your time in this realm.

I addressed some of this in an article over 4 years ago, including possible suggestions of cards that are not on the Reserved List that could easily be reprinted in Standard legal sets, let alone special products.

I think ultimately it's just poor planning on WotC's part. I should probably write an updated article with strategies for getting more stuff to the players in a timely fashion, but there is zero reason that any non-Reserved List card should be over $25 if WotC didn't have their heads directly up their asses (see MTGO for constant evidence of this). With the increased demand for older cards for Eternal formats and WotC's lack of response to these demands prices have really taken off, and with so many avenues for reprints and special prints to get into the players' hands WotC has done an abysmal job of catering to their community in this regard.

Why $25? This seems like an arbitrary number. I can see a company being concerned about cost of entry if it effects turnout or investment in the game overall. But at what price does that happen? With attendance figures rising its tough to say the barrier to entry is keeping people out. And of course their willingness to get in depends on their faith in the stability and/or rising value of the expensive cards they purchase. So that's something to watch for. But why is any relevant consideration tied to a particular dollar amount, particularly that low? Jetskis cost 5k but it is still a far more popular hobby than mtg. I just don't understand the argument around keeping values below an arbitrary threshold.

[ben_berry]

Jetskis are 5k because they cost 2k to make. Magic cards are effectively $0 per card to print. Any target price point set on them will be aribitrary. These cards are just a way to pay the judges under the table while leaving them responsible if the IRS finds out they sold these for $500 without reporting it.

[quicksilvervii]

Jetskis are 5k because they cost 2k to make. Magic cards are effectively $0 per card to print. Any target price point set on them will be aribitrary. These cards are just a way to pay the judges under the table while leaving them responsible if the IRS finds out they sold these for $500 without reporting it.

Not sure about arbitrary.

Many people fall into the trap that price is purely based on cost.  It is a factor, but value is the biggest driver.  Check out Xerox and the first copy machines.  They cost something like 3,500 to make.  They sold them to businesses for ~27,000 because of value provided.

Market will drive the price, not a dartboard.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Market will drive the price, not a dartboard.

...except Hasbro effectively has a local cartel with this game.  So it's almost entirely supply driven, especially as the design teams have become more and more adept at crafting metagames.

[Norm4eva]

Well if the Source is any indication of the Legacy reception it's notsogood. Something something art, something something border, something. Ain't no pleasing nobody :/

[Soly]

Personally, if this was NOT in foil, I'd be buying 4.  I decided to stop the Japanese Cards, and I'm going with the goofiest version of every card I can (Example, IDW Duresses)

[quicksilvervii]

Market will drive the price, not a dartboard.

...except Hasbro effectively has a local cartel with this game.  So it's almost entirely supply driven, especially as the design teams have become more and more adept at crafting metagames.

I don't see the contradiction.

It is still driven by the market and not arbitrary.