BUg Doomsday. Dark Ritual < Deathrite Shaman

[AmbivalentDuck]

After having the realization that Deathrite Shaman and Dark Ritual do the same thing (get you to  on turn 2), I wondered just how flexible I could make the deck. Dark Ritual has been getting worse recently, while Deathrite sees maindeck play all over. So is there a valid man/aggro plan?

In particular, can I avoid needing Doomsday or Tendrils to win?

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Fastbond

2 Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Gush
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Imperial Seal

2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Abrupt Decay

3 Doomsday
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner


Why Talrand? The second Doomsday you draw is wasted. Talrand gives you access to new lines of play and dodges Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm. I'm not sold on him. 1x Snapcaster could just as easily be better. Otherwise, not much has changed. We drop support for red, cut Ritual and Divining Top, and add 2x Deathrite. Painless and easy. Shuts down Snappies and Crucibles while making mana.

Sideboard:
1 Forest
1 Flusterstorm
2 Extirpate
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Hurkyl's Recal
2 Nature's Claim
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Engineered Plague (brutal vs UR Delver, name Wizards)
2 Trygon Predator

This has been testing extremely favorably on Cockatrice. The SB Fluster is seeming less strong recently, so it might become Trygon or Deathrite #3. Pack Rat or Jace TMS is also plausible. Any of these four cards could also replace the maindeck Talrand.

I've been amazed in testing at just how much better Deathrite is than Ritual and how it really functionally can do the same thing: support a turn 2 Doomsday + Gush.

Comments, questions?

[Stormanimagus]

After having the realization that Deathrite Shaman and Dark Ritual do the same thing (get you to  on turn 2), I wondered just how flexible I could make the deck. Dark Ritual has been getting worse recently, while Deathrite sees maindeck play all over. So is there a valid man/aggro plan?

In particular, can I avoid needing Doomsday or Tendrils to win?

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Fastbond

2 Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Gush
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Imperial Seal

2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Abrupt Decay

3 Doomsday
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner


Why Talrand? The second Doomsday you draw is wasted. Talrand gives you access to new lines of play and dodges Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm. I'm not sold on him. 1x Snapcaster could just as easily be better. Otherwise, not much has changed. We drop support for red, cut Ritual and Divining Top, and add 2x Deathrite. Painless and easy. Shuts down Snappies and Crucibles while making mana.

Sideboard:
1 Forest
1 Flusterstorm
2 Extirpate
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Hurkyl's Recal
2 Nature's Claim
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Engineered Plague (brutal vs UR Delver, name Wizards)
2 Trygon Predator

This has been testing extremely favorably on Cockatrice. The SB Fluster is seeming less strong recently, so it might become Trygon or Deathrite #3. Pack Rat or Jace TMS is also plausible. Any of these four cards could also replace the maindeck Talrand.

I've been amazed in testing at just how much better Deathrite is than Ritual and how it really functionally can do the same thing: support a turn 2 Doomsday + Gush.

Comments, questions?

I like this list a lot and will probably start testing with it/against it on cockatrice myself. I'm not sure what Pack Rat would accomplish out of the board. Is that for shops? If so I think that another Deathrite is just better in every way. I like 3 dr. shaman post board vs. shops cause you really want to see it on turn 1 to help combat a waste lock. Also, are claims better than more steel sabotage? I think this deck is so fast and explosive that I'd rather have the blue card every time for flexibility and pitchability to force. Also, I'd run engineered explosives over engineered plague. explosives has the added advantage of being able to come in vs. shops and wipe the board of spheres. You can spend 2 different colors and only pay 2 for ee and then pop it for 2. Under 2 sphere effects your total cost to cast is still just 2. That is HUUUUUGE. I'd at least consider that switch. Can't see too much wrong with the maindeck. Nice list man!

-Storm

[AmbivalentDuck]

Talrand is certainly a bit loose. Might be better as a Pack Rat. I agree on the SB Fluster -> Deathrite #3. I strongly strongly disagree on Engineered Explosives being in any sense better than Engineered Plague. The ability to resolve a permanent that says "You have to Bolt me to death" is stronger than you seem to realize. The splash damage against Cavern builds is nice, too. Ie. Plague on humans when some builds no longer bother to run Mayor of Avabruck.

[Onslaught]

As I mentioned to you on cockatrice, I think DRS is the future of combo decks. Giving a midrange feel to combo feels prudent right now, and DRS gives you a mini-inevitability engine that also incidentally screws up some of their stuff while still being mana accel for your primary gameplan.

For anyone interested in a non-Doomsday build of DRS combo, I would love some more criticism of my deck in the General Discussion thread I made about the archetype.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Also, following testing with Onslaught we decided to cut the Talrand for SDT. Not clear if SDT is better than Pack Rat, but it's not hard to see why/how it would be. Less clear if SDT is better than a lone Snappy.

[John Cox]

I'm a big fan of this concept. I posted a list with DRS in the doomsday thread (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45669.msg632094#msg632094) I would use abrupt decay and snapcaster as well now.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Also, following testing with Onslaught we decided to cut the Talrand for SDT. Not clear if SDT is better than Pack Rat, but it's not hard to see why/how it would be. Less clear if SDT is better than a lone Snappy.

What is SDT?

[John Cox]

Also, following testing with Onslaught we decided to cut the Talrand for SDT. Not clear if SDT is better than Pack Rat, but it's not hard to see why/how it would be. Less clear if SDT is better than a lone Snappy.

What is SDT?

Sensei's Divining Top

Talrand is certainly a bit loose. Might be better as a Pack Rat. I agree on the SB Fluster -> Deathrite #3. I strongly strongly disagree on Engineered Explosives being in any sense better than Engineered Plague. The ability to resolve a permanent that says "You have to Bolt me to death" is stronger than you seem to realize. The splash damage against Cavern builds is nice, too. Ie. Plague on humans when some builds no longer bother to run Mayor of Avabruck.

Why plague over toxic deluge? I find the ability to wipe any board for     very usefull.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Ok thanks. I wasn't even thinking about Top only because Talrand and Top do totally different things. Debating between Top/Talrand/Pack Rat is just odd. I guess it depends what you want that slot for. But debating between Top and Snapcaster Mage makes a little more sense. Nevertheless good job on developing a list fellas

[Grand Inquisitor]

the realization that Deathrite Shaman and Dark Ritual do the same thing (get you to  on turn 2)

I thought the entire point of ritual being useful is it allows threats before counter-measures are up?  Ie, turn 1 Doomsday or Necro, not turn 2.

It's a fine design choice to go with DRS in combo decks.  Soly says he's been loving more grindy versions like this.  But it's definitely a trade-off and it seems like one that may be worthwhile in a metagame full of mental missteps (ie, your advantage from Ritual isn't very big anyway).

[AmbivalentDuck]

In particular, can I avoid needing Doomsday or Tendrils to win?

The big difference between Shaman and Ritual is that only of the two can kill your opponent. While Deathrite can't make black mana quite as efficiently as Dark Ritual, it can do it turn after turn while depriving your opponent of Snapcaster targets, life, and graveyard recursion. Having multiple Deathrite main also greatly helps the Workshop matchup.

I've updated a bit. The "flex" slot became Deathrite #3. The 2 Flusterstorms became Spell Pierces. I got tired of not being able to counter Jace and Tangle Wire.

Here's the current sideboard:
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Forest
3 Trygon Predator
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Extirpate (MVP)

Edit: 2x Snapcaster in the SB lets you do a pretty good BUG impression.

[AmbivalentDuck]

As I play this deck more and more, I'm noticing that I seldom actually need Lab Man to win. He's key to matchups where I might need to win on turn 2-3, but those are few and far between. What might a Doomsday kill as an abstract and available but wholly unnecessary threat look like?

We're going to try to meld two strategies: BUG aggro for a clock and Doomsday to exploit openings. We're going to forego Lab Man since it's fair to assume we only need 7-8 storm to win, but we're going to try to leave Gush-Bond intact.

GushBond core (18 cards):
4 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond

BUG Aggro core (7 cards):
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trygon Predator
1 Vendillion Clique

Combo core (2-3 cards):
1-2 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony

Manabase (21 cards):
1 Lotus
4 Mox (leave out Pearl)
1 Mana Crypt
15 lands

So that leaves us with 11-12 slots to defend ourselves.
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Hurkyl's Recall

To abandon the aggro plan, we need to remove 3 cards. To abandon the combo plan, we can ditch 4-5 cards.
Building mostly on the obvious:
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Trygon Predator
1 Super Scissors
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Forest

1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Extirpate

That leaves three slots. We can double down on aggro with some goyfs/equipment/scissors or we can buttress the combo plan with Lab Man and some rituals.

Thoughts?

[John Cox]

I sort of like the fish approach. It feels like having several angles of attack is a good thing. The only issue I see is that you may not be dedicated enough in either one of them to be consistent against a dedicated deck like say, BUG fish, or TPS.

[John Cox]

What about dropping doomsday altogether and making an aggro gush tendrils list? Maybe with pyromancer?

[AmbivalentDuck]

What about dropping doomsday altogether and making an aggro gush tendrils list? Maybe with pyromancer?

In playing the deck, I've found that leaving in 1x Doomsday and 1x Tendrils is enough for the option to be "available." Folks have been caught off guard in both directions: they thought they were playing against Storm with some Deathrites and had no way to answer an aggro clock (removal out, Flusters in). And I've had people think they were up against BUG Aggro be surprised when I Tendrils them out on turn 2 (Flusters out, removal in). The GushBond core supports both strategies and the combo doesn't really suffer all that much for losing Lab Man and 1x Doomsday.

Pyromancer vs Trygons is sort of an interesting question, but Trygon helps the Workshops matchup. I tried Tarmogoyf for a bit while waiting for Ensoul Artifact to be added to Cockatrice and I'd never run Scissors over it so long as I have access to green. I never had Goyf in hand and wished it was Scissors instead, but there were a few situations where it had to be Goyf.

Current sideboard is:
1 Grafdigger's Cage (Oath, Dredge)
1 Laboratory Maniac (on the verge of getting cut)
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
1 Repeal
1 Forest
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Misdirection
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Extirpate

[John Cox]

I wouldn't cut Trygons for Pyromancer, I would look at them in the scissors slot. If anything Dack Fayden might be worth looking at in the Trygon slot since it steals an artifact and combos nicely with gush, but I like Trygon Predator.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Dack is extremely cute with Doomsday since his +1 not only helps you find Doomsday but also enables you to win off it without Gush. I'm not sure Dack represents an alternate win condition or helps with the awful UR and RUG Delver matchups, though.

[John Cox]

Its more for the broken blue and workshop matches. If you have enough board presence to stop confidants from attacking (1-2 creatures)then your halting their clock and with gush and dack your out drawing them, your also shutting off tinker. Against workshops you get to steal an artifact the turn he comes out and get to do it again in a couple turns.
It's not an aggro stopping card like lightning bolt but I think it's comparable to trygon. That said, no idea if its better.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It's not hard to imagine a rebuild into Grixis with 1x Doomsday as sort of a super-Tinker. It'd be very different because you're replacing the GushBond engine with Bob and planeswalkers. Less explosive, more resilient to Spheres, less resilient to Oath. I think Soly has talked about doing this or at least something like it.

GushBond has a proven track record supporting both aggro and combo. Let's bear in mind, though, that a winning Doomsday pile doesn't require anything that a blue deck with a Tendrils in it wouldn't run in the first place:

Draw spell (Ancestral, Brainstorm, Gush, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, etc)
Black Lotus
Yawg Win
Storm count upper (Duress, Repeal, Hurkyl's Recall, etc)
Tendrils

We're not jumping the shark by adding Doomsday and expecting it to perform.

[emidln]

It's not hard to imagine a rebuild into Grixis with 1x Doomsday as sort of a super-Tinker. It'd be very different because you're replacing the GushBond engine with Bob and planeswalkers. Less explosive, more resilient to Spheres, less resilient to Oath. I think Soly has talked about doing this or at least something like it.

GushBond has a proven track record supporting both aggro and combo. Let's bear in mind, though, that a winning Doomsday pile doesn't require anything that a blue deck with a Tendrils in it wouldn't run in the first place:

Draw spell (Ancestral, Brainstorm, Gush, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, etc)
Black Lotus
Yawg Win
Storm count upper (Duress, Repeal, Hurkyl's Recall, etc)
Tendrils

We're not jumping the shark by adding Doomsday and expecting it to perform.

It's also worth noting that this has a proven track record in Vintage history. TTS (The Tropical Storm) was an alternate approach vs Bob Doomsday (which I think only AD played) and Next Level Doomsday in the last Gush era. The premise of the deck was just a combo-control deck with Rituals and Gushes. It played things like Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence that NLD eschewed and most of the time was just a Gush storm deck. It included a 1-of Doomsday as an alternate plan of attack in the face of extreme hate as well as a non-graveyard-dependent kill condition.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It included a 1-of Doomsday as an alternate plan of attack in the face of extreme hate as well as a non-graveyard-dependent kill condition.

And that's really where I see things. You play BUG aggro/control with the option of "oops I win" off Doomsday if they're ever unprepared to deal with it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Updating with a more current list:

GushBond core (18 cards):
4 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond

BUG Aggro core (7 cards):
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trygon Predator
1 Vendillion Clique

Combo core (2-3 cards):
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Duress (Thoughtseize?)

Manabase (21 cards):
1 Lotus
4 Mox (leave out Pearl)
1 Mana Crypt
15 lands

So that leaves us with 11-12 slots to defend ourselves.
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Sideboard:
1 Forest
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Trygon Predator
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Thoughtseize
1 Doomsday
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Extirpate
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[desolutionist]

To me, Dark Ritual is a Yawgmoth's Will card; it makes playing a Yawgmoths Will on turn 1 actually do something relevant (like win the game). Deathrite Shaman is more like a slow Mox; it's other abilities aren't relevant in a fast deck and actually make Yawgmoths Will worse. So if your goal is to play Doomsday on turn 2, why not just play it on turn 1 with a Dark Ritual?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Because the influx of Dack decks means too much countermagic to reliably break through, particularly since you're all in. By contrast, they choke pretty hard on the aggro plan. While turn 1 Doomsday could be nice in certain matchups (Ie. Dredge), it's usually better to Duress turn 1 and go off turn 2.

[Guli]

The list is most appealing to me. It is an actual aggro combo control list with many broken lines.

[r3dd09]

Any update to this? Looks like a sweet deck, I'll start testing it myself.