Dance Magic Dance -- Blue White Fact or Fiction /Spirit of the Labyrinth Control

[Samoht]

Has anyone considered splashing green for the plethora of flash green creatures or noxious revival or blessing with its interaction with fact or fiction?

I'm pretty sure weakening the mana base isn't where you want to be. The green Flash creatures aren't any better than the blue ones as far as I know. Nature's Claim is probably the best card you could argue for and I think white has that angle covered pretty well.

[KanaKaishou]

Has anyone considered splashing green for the plethora of flash green creatures or noxious revival or blessing with its interaction with fact or fiction?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[flash]&color=+&type=+[%22Creature%22]

...Nope, note interested in any of these creatures. Which ones did you have in mind (honestly curious, no sarcasm)? Noxious Revival and Blessing seem poor at best (and noxious revival doesn't even need green!).

If I was playing green, I'd be doing it to play Tarmogoyf, and that seems miserable, since we just don't cast sorceries of our own!

Bant Charm seems like the hotness, though.

[Piggyboy1]

What are some sideboards cards against Grixis? I seem to face the deck a lot and am only at a 50% win rate and was looking if there were any cards that they finds super hard to beat

[hashswag]

What are some sideboards cards against Grixis? I seem to face the deck a lot and am only at a 50% win rate and was looking if there were any cards that they finds super hard to beat

When I play Grixis, I basically just try to stock up on counterspells and card advantage. I'd be playing some number of traps and flusterstorms, with removal for bob and ideally Merchant scroll to go get Acall. You want to stop Robot, Vault+Key and Bob, so play as many cards as you can that counter or deal with those things, then have the rest of your deck be card advantage with a few wincons left in (clique + jace are best for this).

[KanaKaishou]

What are some sideboards cards against Grixis? I seem to face the deck a lot and am only at a 50% win rate and was looking if there were any cards that they finds super hard to beat

When I play Grixis, I basically just try to stock up on counterspells and card advantage. I'd be playing some number of traps and flusterstorms, with removal for bob and ideally Merchant scroll to go get Acall. You want to stop Robot, Vault+Key and Bob, so play as many cards as you can that counter or deal with those things, then have the rest of your deck be card advantage with a few wincons left in (clique + jace are best for this).

I approach the matchup.differently. Yes, you need disruption. But you need to ask: am I going to win going long playing defense? No. You're going to eventually FoF into air, and die to their threat. My general rule agaisne "big blue" is this: if they have a hand that kills menon turn 1/2, so be it. Run threats out early, so that you can play from ahead. The deck is brutal at keeping an advantage, and less impressive at digging out of holes (because you don't have individual win the game cards). It's obviously fine at parity, but even then, I want to jam monsters into big blue.

Still, the right answers to the original question is Flusterstorm, Spell Snare, and Mindbreak Trap. I'd go further and call Grixis/BUG control 50/50 matchups, which are highly dependent on play skill and your draws.

[hashswag]

An interesting idea Rich pointed out to me is siding your RiPs in for Snapcasters against BUG control to shut off Deathrite (and sometimes Ooze/Goyf). It seems like a lot of commitment for one creature, but I've found it extremely effective.

[The Atog Lord]

Against many decks, the plan is to chop off parts of their strategy until their deck no longer does what it was intended to do. And a choke-point of BUG Fish is that their deck is secretly a graveyard deck. Without Deathrite Shaman, no one would bother sleeving up the other 56 cards in the deck together. Shaman is mana fixing, acceleration, offense, and defense. Further, Tarmoyf is the only card in the deck capable of putting away games quickly. Further, it is not infrequent that BUG needs to use a combination of Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf to race its own Dark Confidant damage.

Bringing in Rest in Peace against BUG is simply one example of thinking about how to make an opposing deck malfunction. It is obvious that Grafdigger's Cage makes Dredge malfunction. But there are often those choke points, those ways to tip over other decks as well. While Spirit of the Labyrinth isn't that impressive on paper, he often has this effect on both Ritual and Gush decks.

[KanaKaishou]

An interesting idea Rich pointed out to me is siding your RiPs in for Snapcasters against BUG control to shut off Deathrite (and sometimes Ooze/Goyf). It seems like a lot of commitment for one creature, but I've found it extremely effective.

Another interesting (but similar) idea (I haven't put it out there anywhere somehow), which I've put into practice pretty successfully.

Board Stoneforge out against Oath. It's miserable against them. Sword of Feast and Famine is still nuts, but Stoneforge is awful. Without Stoneforge, I no longer have to deploy creatures on my turn unless I'm Time Walking or something. I can play a reactive game plan, and essentially force Oath to find an Orchard too to win, as UW is good at answering a resolved Oath given time.

I think siding in RiP is wrong against BUG Fish, but boarding out 1 snapcaster is right (well, I'd leave myself at 2 snapcasters. If you were on 2 to begin with, I'd leave myself at 2). People underestimate the power of Ambush Viper--as many player will attack with Bob into 2 mana. Also, sometimes, they just won't have Deathrite, and Snap for Swords is as bananas against BUG Fish as you think it is.

[Andreas]

I gave the deck a try at our local tournament this weekend. Since I came across the list only very recently there was no prior testing involved.

I used the maindeck from the OP and modified the sideboard since we have basically no dredge. My result was an okay-ish 3-2, but one thing I noticed: Tolarain Academy to me on average seemed worse then a basic island resp. a fourth Tundra. The deck does not run that many artifacts, so the scenario where Academy is better than an island - 2+ Moxen in play - did not occur that often. On the other hand there is a real chance to draw it without any artifacts at all.

Has anyone else made similar experiences, or was this a statistical anomaly due to low sample size?

[Commandant]

I gave the deck a try at our local tournament this weekend. Since I came across the list only very recently there was no prior testing involved.

I used the maindeck from the OP and modified the sideboard since we have basically no dredge. My result was an okay-ish 3-2, but one thing I noticed: Tolarain Academy to me on average seemed worse then a basic island resp. a fourth Tundra. The deck does not run that many artifacts, so the scenario where Academy is better than an island - 2+ Moxen in play - did not occur that often. On the other hand there is a real chance to draw it without any artifacts at all.

Has anyone else made similar experiences, or was this a statistical anomaly due to low sample size?

I've struggled with Tolarian in various UW builds for a while now. It's almost sacrosanct and cutting it is something I have yet to do. Like you I've found there are a number of scenarios where it's terrible in the opener and there's a fair amount of match ups where a basic island would be substantially more reliable.

[Samoht]

At the same time I've had a large number of hands that have been utterly reliant on Tolarian for providing me UU to cast Drain or Jace in the first few turns. I wouldn't be comfortable cutting it.

[KanaKaishou]

I gave the deck a try at our local tournament this weekend. Since I came across the list only very recently there was no prior testing involved.

I used the maindeck from the OP and modified the sideboard since we have basically no dredge. My result was an okay-ish 3-2, but one thing I noticed: Tolarain Academy to me on average seemed worse then a basic island resp. a fourth Tundra. The deck does not run that many artifacts, so the scenario where Academy is better than an island - 2+ Moxen in play - did not occur that often. On the other hand there is a real chance to draw it without any artifacts at all.

Has anyone else made similar experiences, or was this a statistical anomaly due to low sample size?

Academy is the literal worst, except when it's bananas. I'm of the opinion that the "it's bananas" times outnumber the "it's a brick" instances.

I also think the stoneforge version is a little easier on the academy, as you get more artifacts. See my report for a recent list.

[Andreas]

Academy is the literal worst, except when it's bananas. I'm of the opinion that the "it's bananas" times outnumber the "it's a brick" instances.

I think we all agreee that Academy adds a bit of variance to the draws, openers especially. The big question is whether the good outweigh the bad.

Maybe my experience is limited, but it seems that Academy is only really good if you have it in the opener with at least two artifacts.

I also think the stoneforge version is a little easier on the academy, as you get more artifacts. See my report for a recent list.

I still like the thinking behind spirit, and that card in the tournament definitely did what it was supposed to do: Shore up some of the weak matchups, namely Gush decks.

Stoneforge definitely is better against creature decks, but against these the rest of the deck already seems well positioned. (Rehashing the obvious, I know) 

[Chubby Rain]

My result was an okay-ish 3-2, but one thing I noticed: Tolarain Academy to me on average seemed worse then a basic island resp. a fourth Tundra. The deck does not run that many artifacts, so the scenario where Academy is better than an island - 2+ Moxen in play - did not occur that often. On the other hand there is a real chance to draw it without any artifacts at all.

Has anyone else made similar experiences, or was this a statistical anomaly due to low sample size?

As other people have noted, there is a large amount of variance with the card. I have cut Academy for a basic Island in a few of my builds, but I tend to play decks like this more conservatively and prefer consistency instead of explosiveness. Justin Kohler prefers the opposite (i.e. "the Kohler"). It's both a personal and metagame choice, I feel.

[KanaKaishou]

I still like the thinking behind spirit, and that card in the tournament definitely did what it was supposed to do: Shore up some of the weak matchups, namely Gush decks.

Stoneforge definitely is better against creature decks, but against these the rest of the deck already seems well positioned. (Rehashing the obvious, I know) 

Agreed on the spirit (pardon the pun!) of these arguments. I still think you're wrong overall, but I think your thinking is correct.

First: I think the aggro matchups are pretty mediocre without Stoneforge. Resto Angel as your defense is all well and good, but it's a high cost, doesn't really put them in a hole card. Trying to block with your creatures is even more awkward, because you need some way to kill them--trading off creatures as resources is often a problem because your hand won't have an alternative way to kill them--you don't have Vault/Key or Tinker or Will to "just win at random" once you're down resources, and Cavern of Souls will eventually overrun you. Stoneforge is also a much better threat than Spirit, IMHO. Sword of Feast and Famine allows Stoneforge to play a Spirit like role in that if the card sticks, you lock them out in short order. Obviously, Spirit is a better lock piece, but I think Stoneforge is a better 2 way player than you're giving her credit for.

Second: Against Gush, I've been thinking about jamming something like Ethersworn Canonist (or Spirit, for that matter) into the sideboard to hate on the card. Still, Delver is just a rough matchup strategically, and I've been stumped about how to beat it. If someone has an idea, I'm happy to try it. I don't think it's a question of Stoneforge versus Spirit (Delver basically can't beat batterskull in play. They also have a rough time with Spirit, so both Stoneforge and Spirit demand a bolt post-haste), but rather a question of "can I swap my base strategy with a few cards."

[JarofFortune]

(Delver basically can't beat batterskull in play)

Having tested a ton of games against different variations of UW Control using Delver, I can confidently say that this statement is not true. I can usually beat Stoneforge the first game, and post board, when I bring in Grudges and True-names, it becomes even easier. Stoneforge is more of a problem for the pyromancer versions, because young Pyromancer can do almost nothing against Batterskull. Generally speaking, Tarmogoyf is a much better threat against your deck, and usually blanks batter skull by itself, but it can be answered.

Although Delver can definitely beat Batterskull, it is still an obstacle that they must overcome. Because of this, the deck can often fall behind if you attack it from multiple angles at once. This means using different cards to nullify different portions of their deck. You are on the right track on the idea of using Spirit and Stoneforge in tandem with one another. To further attack the Delver Player, True name-nemesis is an unanswerable threat once resolved. This inevitability can win you the game when you are shutting off other portions of their deck at the same time, even if they are running their own True-names as well. Moat is one of the cards i want to see least from my opponent. It forces the Delver Player to bring in enchantment removal like Nature's Claim if they see a moat, which is more impactful than it sounds. Delver ideally has a very tight maindeck with varying ratios of counterspells, threats, and removal, and having to bring in more cards can dilute the deck. Once you have a moat out, dealing with their flyers should not be too hard most of the time, especially if you up the Restoration Angel Count. If they are running Tarmogoyf, bring in Rest in Peace. If it is possible to up the amount of Cavern of Souls you run, do it. Just use every angle available to you, and eventually their deck will stop functioning properly. This plan might be demanding of sideboard slots, but all of the cards I have suggested can be used in other matchups.     
 
I don't think the matchup can ever be perfect, especially if people start seeing the light and running more hard counters in their Delver lists, but a plan like the one above gives you a very big chance to simply overwhelm delver players. Congrats on your finishes, and good luck fixing this matchup .

[Samoht]

(Delver basically can't beat batterskull in play)

Having tested a ton of games against different variations of UW Control using Delver, I can confidently say that this statement is not true. I can usually beat Stoneforge the first game, and post board, when I bring in Grudges and True-names, it becomes even easier. Stoneforge is more of a problem for the pyromancer versions, because young Pyromancer can do almost nothing against Batterskull. Generally speaking, Tarmogoyf is a much better threat against your deck, and usually blanks batter skull by itself, but it can be answered.

Although Delver can definitely beat Batterskull, it is still an obstacle that they must overcome. Because of this, the deck can often fall behind if you attack it from multiple angles at once. This means using different cards to nullify different portions of their deck. You are on the right track on the idea of using Spirit and Stoneforge in tandem with one another. To further attack the Delver Player, True name-nemesis is an unanswerable threat once resolved. This inevitability can win you the game when you are shutting off other portions of their deck at the same time, even if they are running their own True-names as well. Moat is one of the cards i want to see least from my opponent. It forces the Delver Player to bring in enchantment removal like Nature's Claim if they see a moat, which is more impactful than it sounds. Delver ideally has a very tight maindeck with varying ratios of counterspells, threats, and removal, and having to bring in more cards can dilute the deck. Once you have a moat out, dealing with their flyers should not be too hard most of the time, especially if you up the Restoration Angel Count. If they are running Tarmogoyf, bring in Rest in Peace. If it is possible to up the amount of Cavern of Souls you run, do it. Just use every angle available to you, and eventually their deck will stop functioning properly. This plan might be demanding of sideboard slots, but all of the cards I have suggested can be used in other matchups.     
 
I don't think the matchup can ever be perfect, especially if people start seeing the light and running more hard counters in their Delver lists, but a plan like the one above gives you a very big chance to simply overwhelm delver players. Congrats on your finishes, and good luck fixing this matchup .

We run Moat, Humility, and Council's Judgment. Trust me when I tell you that TNN nor Goyf scares us all that much. Also, unless you are Cavern'ing your TNN in we can crush it.

[KanaKaishou]

(Delver basically can't beat batterskull in play)

Having tested a ton of games against different variations of UW Control using Delver, I can confidently say that this statement is not true. I can usually beat Stoneforge the first game, and post board, when I bring in Grudges and True-names, it becomes even easier. Stoneforge is more of a problem for the pyromancer versions, because young Pyromancer can do almost nothing against Batterskull. Generally speaking, Tarmogoyf is a much better threat against your deck, and usually blanks batter skull by itself, but it can be answered.

I was mostly worrying about the Pyromancer version. My opinion on the RUG version is that the right way to fight is to simply have like 6 Swords effects (+Snapcaster, +Your own counters to defend), and consistently be able to just kill their creatures. I'd also quibble about "you beat Stoneforge in game 1". It happens often, yes, but it's usually because Stoneforge Mystic dies, and I'm left with this 5 cost uncastable in hand. When everything goes to plan, it's pretty tough to beat, even with a Goyf, because some other creature picks up the Skull, and bashes you with it, Goyf or not.

Post board, I fully accept that Grudge et. al are going to mess up the "Make batterskull, win" plan, and that's why I'm looking for the right answer.

I've actually tried TNN against Delver, but the problem is that it often puts you into a racing situation against Pyromancer, and it usually loses that race. Very, very awkward.

We run Moat, Humility, and Council's Judgment. Trust me when I tell you that TNN nor Goyf scares us all that much. Also, unless you are Cavern'ing your TNN in we can crush it.

These are, in fact, cards you can board in. They're all mediocre in the matchup (OK, Humility less so, but I stand by my point). The game doesn't revolve around TNN. It revolves around Delver and Pyromancer. You're right in saying that TNN and Goyf aren't the scary parts, but the answers you've suggested--while they are things which are likely to be in the board, and do the functions you suggest they do, aren't exactly the bombs they are in other places. Even Supreme Verdict is awkward--you're often trading 1 for 1 and 4 mana for a 1 for 1 is not where I want to be. 4 mana awkward spells are already sketchy in Vintage (welcome to the deck!), but when they aren't absolute game winners (like Moat against Merfolk), I'm a lot less excited.

I suspect why I'm a little stumped is that I'm trying to find a single angle which solves a deck which attacks on multiple angles. The best answer I've actually found is still Ghostly Prison, but it's just too middling against anything not named Pyromancer Delver. If we look to Legacy for answers, the best "strategically advantaged deck" against Delver is something like Jund or Shardless BUG, which play enough removal not to die, have Wastelands and Deathrite Shaman to fight the mana denial axis, and have a ton of raw card advantage in cascade creatures. I don't know if you can configure U/W to fight like that, though, even thought you don't have to fight along the mana denial axis.

[Samoht]

We run Moat, Humility, and Council's Judgment. Trust me when I tell you that TNN nor Goyf scares us all that much. Also, unless you are Cavern'ing your TNN in we can crush it.

These are, in fact, cards you can board in. They're all mediocre in the matchup (OK, Humility less so, but I stand by my point). The game doesn't revolve around TNN. It revolves around Delver and Pyromancer. You're right in saying that TNN and Goyf aren't the scary parts, but the answers you've suggested--while they are things which are likely to be in the board, and do the functions you suggest they do, aren't exactly the bombs they are in other places. Even Supreme Verdict is awkward--you're often trading 1 for 1 and 4 mana for a 1 for 1 is not where I want to be. 4 mana awkward spells are already sketchy in Vintage (welcome to the deck!), but when they aren't absolute game winners (like Moat against Merfolk), I'm a lot less excited.

I suspect why I'm a little stumped is that I'm trying to find a single angle which solves a deck which attacks on multiple angles. The best answer I've actually found is still Ghostly Prison, but it's just too middling against anything not named Pyromancer Delver. If we look to Legacy for answers, the best "strategically advantaged deck" against Delver is something like Jund or Shardless BUG, which play enough removal not to die, have Wastelands and Deathrite Shaman to fight the mana denial axis, and have a ton of raw card advantage in cascade creatures. I don't know if you can configure U/W to fight like that, though, even thought you don't have to fight along the mana denial axis.

Idk if we land Moat the only card to fear is Delver. That seems strong. Ghostly Prison actually applies favorably against Dredge as well. I don't know how comfortable I'd be cutting some Dredge hate for it but it's something to consider.

[brianpk80]

Some of the best cards UW has available for the Delver match-up are Auriok Salvagers, Cavern of Souls, Library of Alexandria, Stoneforge Mystic, Engineered Explosives, Flusterstorm, and if absolutely necessary Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.  Force of Will should be boarded out in this match-up because it's self-defeating to 2-for-1 yourself trying to stop threats which are of equal "fair" value (ie no Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will) when the opponent is on Gush.  I would try to couple an instant effect like Swords or Fact or Fiction with a Flusterstorm and wait till the opponent played Preordain or Gush, play my spell in response, and then Fluster both his/her counter and draw spell.  A green splash for Oath of Druids in the sideboard even without fully committing to the entire package is viable as well and applies to this match-up as well as other problematic ones like Shop.  Sideboard Tinker may be another effective tactic, especially since even informed players would likely side out their artifact hate v. Blue Angels/Dance Magic.  

[Samoht]

Some of the best cards UW has available for the Delver match-up are Auriok Salvagers, Cavern of Souls, Library of Alexandria, Stoneforge Mystic, Engineered Explosives, Flusterstorm, and if absolutely necessary Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.  Force of Will should be boarded out in this match-up because it's self-defeating to 2-for-1 yourself trying to stop threats which are of equal "fair" value (ie no Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will) when the opponent is on Gush.  I would try to couple an instant effect like Swords or Fact or Fiction with a Flusterstorm and wait till the opponent played Preordain or Gush, play my spell in response, and then Fluster both his/her counter and draw spell.  A green splash for Oath of Druids in the sideboard even without fully committing to the entire package is viable as well and applies to this match-up as well as other problematic ones like Shop.  Sideboard Tinker may be another effective tactic, especially since even informed players would likely side out their artifact hate v. Blue Angels/Dance Magic.  

My only nitpick here is they tend to board IN artifact hate to beat Batterskull. Ancient Grudge is almost guaranteed to make an appearance, while Claim is also likely.

[Jeb Springfield]

Is Helm of Obedience a reasonable sideboard consideration? The deck already plays Rest in Peace in the sideboard and is clearly geared towards being able to cast four mana spells. Additionally Helm along with Rest in Peace would provide the potential to end a game instantly, something which I have noted some consider a currently missing element. I understand that finding the Helm would be a problem, but with Moat and potentially Stoneforge Mystic equipment, Enlightened Tutor would be a sideboard option which would also strengthen post board match ups against Dredge and Workshops (though this is only the case if the correct hate were to be sideboarded).

I apologise if this is something that has already been suggested and / or dismissed. I did look through the thread and didn't see it.

[Aaron Patten]

Why is it still "Dance Magic Dance" when there's no Spirit of the Labyrinth?  Doesn't that make it another Stoneforge Mystic or Blue Angels deck?

[KanaKaishou]

Is Helm of Obedience a reasonable sideboard consideration? The deck already plays Rest in Peace in the sideboard and is clearly geared towards being able to cast four mana spells. Additionally Helm along with Rest in Peace would provide the potential to end a game instantly, something which I have noted some consider a currently missing element. I understand that finding the Helm would be a problem, but with Moat and potentially Stoneforge Mystic equipment, Enlightened Tutor would be a sideboard option which would also strengthen post board match ups against Dredge and Workshops (though this is only the case if the correct hate were to be sideboarded).

I apologise if this is something that has already been suggested and / or dismissed. I did look through the thread and didn't see it.

Helm/RIP/Tinker is a line I've considered (and haven't put any testing into). Basically, the reason I don't like the plan is that (1) Helm is 100% a 5 mana spell, since they're bringing in artifact hate. Can't ever run out Helm at 4. (2) People will keep Null Rod in against you, (3) while it does help the big blue matchup, it's not really needed, and (4) you have no tutors to find these pieces. At "Ending the game instantly," I think that you're looking at the wrong deck if you want that ever. A random creature plus a reasonable hand against their no resources is not quite as hard a lock as Vault/Key, but they're dead, and they know it.

Enlightened Tutor seems reasonable--especially as extra copies of Moat or dredge hate (and I guess shops, since at that point you'd have a Serenity in the board), but it's a case of "Do I really want to board this in?" a lot of the time. You're not relying on bullets to beat people very often--realistically, that's just against Merfolk, and even then, you're simply on 3 sideboarded high impact 4cc spells, which isn't really a "silver bullet" strategy.

Why is it still "Dance Magic Dance" when there's no Spirit of the Labyrinth?  Doesn't that make it another Stoneforge Mystic or Blue Angels deck?

It's the fact or fictions, really. I think at the end of the day, the big contribution of Dance Magic Dance was Fact or Fiction as a card advantage engine, rather than Spirit of the Labyrinth as disruption.

Some of the best cards UW has available for the Delver match-up are Auriok Salvagers, Cavern of Souls, Library of Alexandria, Stoneforge Mystic, Engineered Explosives, Flusterstorm, and if absolutely necessary Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.  Force of Will should be boarded out in this match-up because it's self-defeating to 2-for-1 yourself trying to stop threats which are of equal "fair" value (ie no Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will) when the opponent is on Gush.  I would try to couple an instant effect like Swords or Fact or Fiction with a Flusterstorm and wait till the opponent played Preordain or Gush, play my spell in response, and then Fluster both his/her counter and draw spell.  A green splash for Oath of Druids in the sideboard even without fully committing to the entire package is viable as well and applies to this match-up as well as other problematic ones like Shop.  Sideboard Tinker may be another effective tactic, especially since even informed players would likely side out their artifact hate v. Blue Angels/Dance Magic.   

Boarding out Force seems very reasonable, and I haven't tried doing that. That's a thing to try.

Boarding into an Oath plan feels unviable--what am I going to take *out* of my deck? I don't ever want to Oath into a Clique, or something.

At people boarding out artifact hate: no, I'm pretty sure they're not going to. I have Stoneforge in the main. If anything, people will bring *in* grudge/predator and friends.

Is there some sort of sideboard Mystical+Tinker+Bot (Blightsteel or Inkwell seems like the right one) plan that helps the matchup? I still am not sold, since I think you'd just run into a wall of sideboarded REBs and Flusterstorms, which makes that entire plan bad.

[JarofFortune]

I just played several preboard games against your list, Vasu. I lost one game to batterskull, and i would have been victorious had i just found a sorcery for goyf. There was one game where UW resolved three fact or fictions, and got a batterskull on the board and yet I still managed to grind the game to a point where we both got to just 1 or 2 cards in hand, and I finished off UW with 2 goyfs and a delver. I had about 15 cards left in my library, the UW deck had 11. The combination of Gushes, cantrips, and a low land count combine to make delver a better control deck than UW when the decks face off, as long as the delver player is playing enough hard counters, and I can stop the the UW player from resolving a sensei's top.

If you are worried about the pyromancer versions, cut the humility and verdict in your board for more moats. It will probably catch most delver players unprepared, And from there you just have to sandbag counterspells and removal for delvers and trygons. Nothing else should matter at all. Protect your moat, and stop their flyers. You can just win off clique/angel with equipment, or jace if you can protect it from pyroblasts. Spirit of the labyrinth might be necessary for this plan.

Afterwards, i played a bunch of postboard games. In the first game, i beat resolved turn 1 jace into Fof into moat, choosing not to counter the the latter two cards, because there was no need to. In another fun one, tnn did lots of work for me, with the first killing the opposing jace and protecting my dack before falling to a council's judgement, the second finishing the UW deck off just before i would have decked myself. Another game differed considerably from the preboard games in that I won quickly off Tnn beats. With your current sideboard plan, the matchup feels very favorable for Delver. Tom, saying that a single council's judgement, two answerable enchantments and a verdict are enough get rid of tnn as a problem is completely incorrect. Luckily for both decks, however, TNN is not a very commonly played card in the format.


Brian: Salvagers demands a different kind of shell from this deck. The stoneforge builds tend to be controlling than Trinket mage variants I've tested against UW bomberman with trinket mages and salvagers, and found that Salvagers doesn't tend to be much of a problem if i treat the matchup like a fish mirror. My creatures tend to be better at racing than those of bomberman. Salvagers is a much bigger problem for delver if the salvagers deck is more combo-oriented with tutors and such. Many of your decks are examples of this.

[KanaKaishou]

With your current sideboard plan, the matchup feels very favorable for Delver. Tom, saying that a single council's judgement, two answerable enchantments and a verdict are enough get rid of tnn as a problem is completely incorrect. Luckily for both decks, however, TNN is not a very commonly played card in the format.

Man, it's like I agree with that sentiment. I don't think that the deck is well positioned to beat delver in the first place (a bad matchup can exist!), but I'm interested in having a coherent strategy beyond "hope and pray they just brick into oblivion". I've wracked my brain for an idea, but it just does not feel very good. I think your argument that "delver can be the control deck better than U/W can in the matchup" is actually very revealing to me. My thought then is "if they are going to be the better control deck, why don't I shift into a more beatdown role?" And from that, I think it follows that U/W wants Spirits/Canonist/TNN in the board--and possibly even a Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice--so that U/W can take up the beatdown role more effectively when it needs to, as opposed to the current configuration, which can't really leave the role of control except against the durdliest of opponents.

[JarofFortune]

With your current sideboard plan, the matchup feels very favorable for Delver. Tom, saying that a single council's judgement, two answerable enchantments and a verdict are enough get rid of tnn as a problem is completely incorrect. Luckily for both decks, however, TNN is not a very commonly played card in the format.

Man, it's like I agree with that sentiment. I don't think that the deck is well positioned to beat delver in the first place (a bad matchup can exist!), but I'm interested in having a coherent strategy beyond "hope and pray they just brick into oblivion". I've wracked my brain for an idea, but it just does not feel very good. I think your argument that "delver can be the control deck better than U/W can in the matchup" is actually very revealing to me. My thought then is "if they are going to be the better control deck, why don't I shift into a more beatdown role?" And from that, I think it follows that U/W wants Spirits/Canonist/TNN in the board--and possibly even a Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice--so that U/W can take up the beatdown role more effectively when it needs to, as opposed to the current configuration, which can't really leave the role of control except against the durdliest of opponents.

That certainly might work. Some time ago I played a more pyromancer focused version of Rug Delver at a local tournament. My round one opponent, playing affinity, resolved a sword of fire and Ice against me in game 1. It made each of his creatures into a huge threat, and I would have lost that game if I had not topdecked mystical at the perfect time. Now, delver will bring in grudges post board, but the idea of just overwhelming it with threats is a valid one, especially since delver can't grudge all of your dudes like it could with Affinity.

You may also just want bigger threats combined with more caverns. Elesh Norn off a cavern is just unbeatable. I've experienced it myself.

[Samoht]

snip... Tom, saying that a single council's judgement, two answerable enchantments and a verdict are enough get rid of tnn as a problem is completely incorrect. Luckily for both decks, however, TNN is not a very commonly played card in the format....snip

In this match up, it's more than sufficient to line up the cards mentioned while stabilizing off the Lifelink of Batterskull (if they don't attack w/ TNN to block we're still at least +3). We have several counters that interact with TNN in addition to the cards listed above. If URg Delver has a fast TNN w/ counter back up and we don't have one of the answers above we will likely lose - sure. That said, URg plays 1-3 TNN's and only 2-3 moxen and Lotus for acceleration, so more often than not we're talking about a turn 2-3 TNN at the earliest. I also pack Trinket Mage and Engineered Explosives, which I believe Vasu is missing. The card actually impacts the match up a lot more than you might think at first. I'm much more concerned about TNN coming from a Merfolk deck, but that has more to do with Cavern than anything else. If those TNN's  are picking up pesky things like Jitte or Swords, then I can at least interact with those in order to not get immediately destroyed by it. Otherwise I have a few turns to try and stabilize. It's certainly a powerful card, the question is it enough? Across the board I don't think it is, but that's just my two pennies. All that said, I fully agree that the match up isn't favorable for UW. I've played it several times on both sides and I always felt that the URg deck was in the drivers seat, even with Pyro over Goyf. They have so much more gas and are hyper efficient in the early tempo game in order to leverage astoundingly strong boards before UW can stabilize.

[JarofFortune]

snip... Tom, saying that a single council's judgement, two answerable enchantments and a verdict are enough get rid of tnn as a problem is completely incorrect. Luckily for both decks, however, TNN is not a very commonly played card in the format....snip

In this match up, it's more than sufficient to line up the cards mentioned while stabilizing off the Lifelink of Batterskull (if they don't attack w/ TNN to block we're still at least +3).

If I have TNN in my deck, it means its a post board game. That also means that I have multiple answers to batterksull. Batterskull is just a bump in the road that I will have to and can deal with once every game.

We have several counters that interact with TNN in addition to the cards listed above. If URg Delver has a fast TNN w/ counter back up and we don't have one of the answers above we will likely lose - sure. That said, URg plays 1-3 TNN's and only 2-3 moxen and Lotus for acceleration, so more often than not we're talking about a turn 2-3 TNN at the earliest.

I'm aware that the deck runs counterspells. If you blow some fighting over tnn then I am not unhappy, because I am in no hurry to finish the game and have plenty more threats. I also have no need to play an early TNN, especially into drain mana.

It's certainly a powerful card, the question is it enough? Across the board I don't think it is, but that's just my two pennies.

I don't use TNN as a crutch. I use it as a tool in the form of a resilient threat that has utility in many other matchups.  

 

They have so much more gas and are hyper efficient in the early tempo game in order to leverage astoundingly strong boards before UW can stabilize.

Huh. Interestingly enough, I approach the matchup very differently. I view it as a control mirror. I choose to play on the draw and side out two of my delvers, because going all in on tempo advantage and racing are going to get me ground down half of the time. Perhaps it is partially a difference between my build and the pyromancer versions, because those run more conditional cards such as spell pierce.

[Samoht]

The number of cards you have that deals with Batterskull is on par with the amount of cards that I have to deal with TNN. I can also bounce it to protect it.

If you're going to play a threat I have to interact with it, especially if it's TNN and I can't interact with it once it's down. My point was more that it's not an inherent trump. UW isn't cold to it barring something like Cavern forcing it down. If you're waiting to apply it at the end of a long line of plays, then that's atypical of what is my experience and potentially more devastating if you can get there. Remember it also gives me time to find all of my outs to it. By all means, if it's working for you continue. Perhaps part of your success is based on what build of UW you're used to playing against and how the pilot chooses to direct the match up.

I didn't mean to imply that is was solely for this MU or a crutch. I just meant that I think there is a reason that not many other pilots are picking up TNN and SB'ing them or MD'ing them sans Merfolk. It's situationally stellar, but I don't know how often those situations arise.

I think I'd have to play more games with/against your particular version to be able to comment further on it. I can only really go with the things I've played against in the past and have tested against from other people. I tend to lose the games that they have an early Delver/Pyro/Goyf and a Gush. Otherwise I am able to grind them down fairly easily with UW as my cards are stronger the longer the game goes and my Trinkey Mage package has a lot of versatility and utility, sans Gush of course. If you've found a different formula that is winning grindier games, that's great to hear. Hope to see it putting up results in the near future!