Dance Magic Dance -- Blue White Fact or Fiction /Spirit of the Labyrinth Control

[brianpk80]

Boarding into an Oath plan feels unviable--what am I going to take *out* of my deck? I don't ever want to Oath into a Clique, or something.

Oathing up a Clique or Angel is fine; if it's worth paying 1UU or 3W, it's probably also worth getting a free one every upkeep for 1G.  While there are definitely better things to Oath up, they also come with a lot of extra baggage and design constraints.  Because Griselbrand is so bluntly overpowered, it's easy to overlook the facts that Oathing simply for value is as reasonable as playing Dark Confidant (pay 1X, wait one turn, receive payout during successive upkeeps) and that Oath of Druids itself initially saw play as an anti-aggro/creature sideboard tactic, which it still accomplishes and is relevant here.  The card is a trump to Delver and Workshop which are matches where improvement is welcome.  There may be better options, but it's one with merit IMO.    

At people boarding out artifact hate: no, I'm pretty sure they're not going to. I have Stoneforge in the main. If anything, people will bring *in* grudge/predator and friends.

As Jar mentioned, forcing an opponent to dilute their game plan with narrow answers to only one component of your strategy is an advantage.  

Is there some sort of sideboard Mystical+Tinker+Bot (Blightsteel or Inkwell seems like the right one) plan that helps the matchup? I still am not sold, since I think you'd just run into a wall of sideboarded REBs and Flusterstorms, which makes that entire plan bad.

Possibly, but ideally timed, it's a potential early play following "tap out, play Pyromancer" which may singlehandedly win the game.  When playing Tinker/Vault decks against Delver, I often side out the Vault & Key which are a greater hassle to find, resolve, and protect than the Robot.  Playing a "fair" deck doesn't necessarily preclude the use of unfair cards in the sideboard.  

Brian: Salvagers demands a different kind of shell from this deck. The stoneforge builds tend to be controlling than Trinket mage variants I've tested against UW bomberman with trinket mages and salvagers, and found that Salvagers doesn't tend to be much of a problem if i treat the matchup like a fish mirror. My creatures tend to be better at racing than those of bomberman. Salvagers is a much bigger problem for delver if the salvagers deck is more combo-oriented with tutors and such. Many of your decks are examples of this.

Agreed that the shell would need a few more cards to accommodate Salvagers, but it may be possible to weave part of a package into the maindeck (Explosives for instance, which is good v. Delver and Shops) and relegate others to the sideboard.  I suggested it because assembling (uncounterable) combo trumps aggro/aggro-control strategies and that is at issue here.  

[serracollector]

if running trinket mage and or salvagers and a full set of moxen for our four cost spells couldnt chalice of the void and ensoul artifact be options? chalice for one hits a larger portion of thier deck while pretty much only stopping our swords  and ancestral. ensoul artifact gives us another set of fat like stoneforge for two mana that can also race. no testing here just thinking out loud.

[merfolkOTPT]

Would this deck be better/more interesting with containment priest and Dig through Time in the format?  We have been talking a lot about the proper place for Containment Priest being a UWx deck of some kind, and despite the dis-synergy with Resto. 

Thoughts?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Would this deck be better/more interesting with containment priest and Dig through Time in the format?  We have been talking a lot about the proper place for Containment Priest being a UWx deck of some kind, and despite the dis-synergy with Resto. 

Thoughts?

You would likely need to find a big beater replacement for resto angel...maybe sfm package or some number of sowers. Resto needs a solid replacement and I'm not sure sfm or sower fit the bill

[msg67183]

I was talking to a buddy about a big white beater. I know this may sound crazy but I think with the resurgence of Delver everywhere, Baneslayer Angel might start making it's way from Legacy over to Vintage.

[KrauserKrauser]

Well Baneslayer does have the added bonus of having protection from Griselbrand.  You'd need two to get past him as a roadblock, but it's not the worst option in the world. (Looking at you, Wood Elemental)

[msg67183]

Well Baneslayer does have the added bonus of having protection from Griselbrand.  You'd need two to get past him as a roadblock, but it's not the worst option in the world. (Looking at you, Wood Elemental)

If you are playing Priest, it will be very difficult for them to get a Griselbrand into play.

Another option is Flickerwisp, with Priest out you can exile their creatures

[marcb]

Has anyone thought of using Jotun grunt for a beater who can combat delve decks?

Marc

Edit: I was thinking more about targeting their graveyard too.

[KanaKaishou]

It's a thought, but the problem is that you don't fill up your graveyard efficiently at all, so keeping the grunt alive is going to be a real problem.

Basically, this is a U/W "grind 'em out" deck which doesn't really want to play the delve spells. Extensive testing has confirmed to me that this is a straight up losing proposition. You will trade evenly, up until your opponent casts Treasure Cruise, and you lose. You can jam a couple Digs into the deck, but they aren't really spectacular--you're never looking for anything specific, as your answers are intentionally target agnostic.

At the end of the day, if you want to play U/W, I think going for a more Tinker/Vault/Key approach is one option (I know some people were trying Moat as an answer card), or going to a more bomberman type deck is the correct approach to U/W--you simply get swamped by treasure cruise eventually without a way to win instantly.

[serracollector]

Is exalted angel no longer an option when running a plethora of moxen and crypt etc?

[xouman]

I was thinking in mirror entity in fact. Usually I get lots of mana, it is uncounterable with cavern, and it makes other critters big as well. Besides it has marginal benefits as cleaning the field against oath or remove bridges. The more creatures in the deck, the better, so it's not for every deck.

[msg67183]

Open for criticism, here is the list that I threw together to include Priest in a UW Control deck abd finding a replacment for Restoration Angel

UW Control 


3 Spirit of the Labyrinth 

3 Containment Priest 

3 Baneslayer Angel 

3 Vendilion Clique 


4 Force of Will 

4 Mana Drain 

3 Mental Misstep 

3 Spell Pierce 


4 Swords to Plowshares 


3 Dig Through Time 

Ancestral Recall 


Time Walk


Black Lotus 

Mox Sapphire 

Mox Jet 

Mox Emerald 

Mox Ruby 

Mox Pearl 

Sol Ring 

Tolarian Academy 

2 Cavern of Souls 

4 Flooded Strand 

1 Polluted Delta 

1 Arid Mesa 

4 Tundra 

3 Island 

1 Plains 

1 Karakas 


Sideboard:


4 Grafdigger's Cage 

4 Steel Sabotage 

1 Containment Priest 

2 Moat 

3 Disenchant 

1 Plains 


Baneslayer plays a huge role right now, as being a dominating force against Delver, a trump to Griselbrand, and a big flyer to combat Shops. The synergy between Spirit, Clique and Karakas is just dirty and I feel having access to 2 moat post board puts a deck like this over the top.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Faerie, Angel, Human, Spirit are your creature types making the caverns in the deck less useful since your creature types are spread out even further then before...which may or may not be an issue

Also why no mana Crypt if you're trying to power out Baneslayer? Plus you have Tolarian...

And delver will out draw the hell out of you because spirit of the Labyrinth will never stay around...so if you do manage to drop angel mid game the delver pilot will likely just sit there and build up a pyromancer army and overwhelm your angel

[brianpk80]

Angel is a half-way measure that won't always do its job.  The way to rout Delver in a Cavern/Drain list is Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.  And as Josh said, include Mana Crypt. 

[KanaKaishou]

Elesh Norn is an uncastable 7 drop, which is insane in play, but marginal at best when its in your hand.

If you want to go into the "Brian Kelly deck" category, Elesh Norn becomes a reasonable thought. But in human being land, it's not realistically castable, and you have no way to cheat it into play.

Honestly, if you want to go down the path of "large idiot", I like Tinker+Sphinx of the Steel Wind as an utterly unbeatable but somewhat castable monster, which can actually be cast.

Honestly, I wish there were a good reanimator deck for vintage. That wasn't reanimating Flame-Kin Zealot to just kill you.

[Samoht]

Elesh Norn is an uncastable 7 drop, which is insane in play, but marginal at best when its in your hand.

If you want to go into the "Brian Kelly deck" category, Elesh Norn becomes a reasonable thought. But in human being land, it's not realistically castable, and you have no way to cheat it into play.

Honestly, if you want to go down the path of "large idiot", I like Tinker+Sphinx of the Steel Wind as an utterly unbeatable but somewhat castable monster, which can actually be cast.

Honestly, I wish there were a good reanimator deck for vintage. That wasn't reanimating Flame-Kin Zealot to just kill you.

Dragon is great, it just folds to Abrupt Decay.

[Chubby Rain]

I actually agree with Brian on Elesh Norn - the way to beat Delver is to trump them, making the card advantage they generate irrelevant. The best trumps against delver right now are non-blue creatures with toughness greater than three and immunity to artifact removal that end the game quickly (i.e. Auriok Salvagers, Griselbrand, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, etc.). Elesh Norn fits into this category. I know it costs 7 mana but I normally try to play Salvagers as a 6 drop (4 mana + 2 to activate and win instantly) and I have seen several decks hardcast a Griselbrand or Sphinx based on how the games play out. That said, I dabble in "Brian Kelly deck" land more than most. And to be fair, most creatures are "marginal at best" when they are in your hand.

In my experience playing Spirit, I have found him to be frankly horrible against Delver. He dies to Bolt, Nature's Claim, Trygon Predator, Electrickery, Izzet Staticaster, etc. and even when he stays in play, he cannot attack profitably through any creature in the deck. Baneslayer Angel I'm somewhat iffy on but admit that I don't have much experience with the card. Sphinx of the Steel Wind is great because the vigilance means you can simultaneous pressure Delver while threatening to gain 6 life if they crack back. Baneslayer not having vigilance opens you up to having to choose whether to stay back on defense allowing Delver to accumulate card advantage, or attempting to race which Delver can realistically beat with Time Walk, double Young Pyromancer, etc.

I'm also not sure about the 3 x Digs in the deck as running Spirit precludes you from running cantrips that make casting Dig reliable. Fact or Fiction seems somewhat better, either as a replacement to Dig or in conjunction with it seems reasonable and somewhat absurd to chain Facts into Digs. Containment Priest also does not seem like a card work playing in the maindeck.

[brianpk80]

If you want to go into the "Brian Kelly deck" category, Elesh Norn becomes a reasonable thought. But in human being land, it's not realistically castable.

...

I like Tinker+Sphinx of the Steel Wind as an utterly unbeatable but somewhat castable monster, which can actually be cast.

If I understand correctly,

  -- not realistically castable in "human being land."
-- somewhat castable monster, which can actually be cast.

With all respect, that is not convincing. 

Matt understands how to attack Delver and stated it eloquently.

The way to beat Delver is to trump them, making the card advantage they generate irrelevant. The best trumps against delver right now are non-blue creatures with toughness greater than three and immunity to artifact removal that end the game quickly (i.e. Auriok Salvagers, Griselbrand, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, etc.). Elesh Norn fits into this category.

From my experience with Elesh in Vintage, casting her is never the problem; the issue is finding her.  With full acceleration, Academy, Caverns, and Mana Drains, having her in hand in the appropriate match-ups illuminates an unambiguous direct path to victory.    : Win the game.

I could not in good conscience endorse relying on a singleton Tinker (which invites Pyroblast, Flusterstorm, and Spell Pierce in addition to Force) into an Esper target in a list that lacks Underground Sea as sufficient means of dispatching the Delver menace.  Drastic times -> drastic measures. 

[KanaKaishou]

If you want to go into the "Brian Kelly deck" category, Elesh Norn becomes a reasonable thought. But in human being land, it's not realistically castable.

...

I like Tinker+Sphinx of the Steel Wind as an utterly unbeatable but somewhat castable monster, which can actually be cast.

If I understand correctly,

  -- not realistically castable in "human being land."
-- somewhat castable monster, which can actually be cast.

With all respect, that is not convincing. 

Matt understands how to attack Delver and stated it eloquently.

The way to beat Delver is to trump them, making the card advantage they generate irrelevant. The best trumps against delver right now are non-blue creatures with toughness greater than three and immunity to artifact removal that end the game quickly (i.e. Auriok Salvagers, Griselbrand, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, etc.). Elesh Norn fits into this category.

From my experience with Elesh in Vintage, casting her is never the problem; the issue is finding her.  With full acceleration, Academy, Caverns, and Mana Drains, having her in hand in the appropriate match-ups illuminates an unambiguous direct path to victory.    : Win the game.

I could not in good conscience endorse relying on a singleton Tinker (which invites Pyroblast, Flusterstorm, and Spell Pierce in addition to Force) into an Esper target in a list that lacks Underground Sea as sufficient means of dispatching the Delver menace.  Drastic times -> drastic measures. 

That's a fair complaint, but I'd argue that Sphinx and Elesh Norn are equally castable. Which is to say mostly not at all. If I were jamming Sphinx, I'd probably be playing U seas and a light black splash (DT for sure, Notion Thief or Nihil Spellbomb maybe). I definitely did not complete my thought correctly, and your criticism is correct as my post stands.

I'm just not sold on playing an honest to god tap 7 mana pay 7 spell--even one as bonkers as Elesh Norn--on a typical Vintage manabase. getting to 7 mana feels like flooding out to me, except in the very late game.

I actually agree with you on Elesh Norn being the truth against Delver, FYI--I'm seriously considering casting Elesh Norn in Legacy out of G/W Maverick. I have over 30 cards which can directly generate mana in the deck, and those include a Gaea's Cradle, which is why I feel at all comfortable with a 7, and the plan is still to cheat Elesh Norn into play, not just cast it. I must just be a giant grump who hates big mana spells!

[Chubby Rain]

That's a fair complaint, but I'd argue that Sphinx and Elesh Norn are equally castable. Which is to say mostly not at all. If I were jamming Sphinx, I'd probably be playing U seas and a light black splash (DT for sure, Notion Thief or Nihil Spellbomb maybe). I definitely did not complete my thought correctly, and your criticism is correct as my post stands.

It's a solid approach, in my opinion...

I'm just not sold on playing an honest to god tap 7 mana pay 7 spell--even one as bonkers as Elesh Norn--on a typical Vintage manabase. getting to 7 mana feels like flooding out to me, except in the very late game.

And that's one of the problems that the Vintage community has (I feel): dismissing a card based on whether or not it fits into our expectations of what a "typical" Vintage deck should be. Looking at the Mono Blue Control deck that saw play in the VSL and won a larger tournament in Europe, it ran two Consecrated Sphinx which is rather difficult to play in a traditional Vintage manabase (especially if you want to cast it with counter backup). The deck took that into consideration by running 4 x Mana Drain, 4 x Trinket Mages and a very "non-Vintage" manabase consisting of 16 lands, 7-8 of which were basics.

[KanaKaishou]

And that's one of the problems that the Vintage community has (I feel): dismissing a card based on whether or not it fits into our expectations of what a "typical" Vintage deck should be. Looking at the Mono Blue Control deck that saw play in the VSL and won a larger tournament in Europe, it ran two Consecrated Sphinx which is rather difficult to play in a traditional Vintage manabase (especially if you want to cast it with counter backup). The deck took that into consideration by running 4 x Mana Drain, 4 x Trinket Mages and a very "non-Vintage" manabase consisting of 16 lands, 7-8 of which were basics.

Agreed. If we count Trinket Mage as a mana source, we're looking at 28 mana sources, at which point 6s and 7s become something in the realm of reality in even a mid length game. The FoF/2 drop control deck doesn't have that many sources (it wants no more than 25, and I'm fairly certain 24 is the correct number), so I can't justify Elesh Norn or Sphinx there. If we want to cast these cards, we have to warp our deck to allow for playing 7 drops, and that means more lands.

[vaughnbros]

And that's one of the problems that the Vintage community has (I feel): dismissing a card based on whether or not it fits into our expectations of what a "typical" Vintage deck should be. Looking at the Mono Blue Control deck that saw play in the VSL and won a larger tournament in Europe, it ran two Consecrated Sphinx which is rather difficult to play in a traditional Vintage manabase (especially if you want to cast it with counter backup). The deck took that into consideration by running 4 x Mana Drain, 4 x Trinket Mages and a very "non-Vintage" manabase consisting of 16 lands, 7-8 of which were basics.

Agreed. If we count Trinket Mage as a mana source, we're looking at 28 mana sources, at which point 6s and 7s become something in the realm of reality in even a mid length game. The FoF/2 drop control deck doesn't have that many sources (it wants no more than 25, and I'm fairly certain 24 is the correct number), so I can't justify Elesh Norn or Sphinx there. If we want to cast these cards, we have to warp our deck to allow for playing 7 drops, and that means more lands.

You only need to get to 7 mana once.  4 lands/mox + trinket into lotus and you are there.  Not really impossible.  Also drain on treasure cruise and elesh norn costs WW.

[WhiteLotus]

And that's one of the problems that the Vintage community has (I feel): dismissing a card based on whether or not it fits into our expectations of what a "typical" Vintage deck should be. Looking at the Mono Blue Control deck that saw play in the VSL and won a larger tournament in Europe, it ran two Consecrated Sphinx which is rather difficult to play in a traditional Vintage manabase (especially if you want to cast it with counter backup). The deck took that into consideration by running 4 x Mana Drain, 4 x Trinket Mages and a very "non-Vintage" manabase consisting of 16 lands, 7-8 of which were basics.

Agreed. If we count Trinket Mage as a mana source, we're looking at 28 mana sources, at which point 6s and 7s become something in the realm of reality in even a mid length game. The FoF/2 drop control deck doesn't have that many sources (it wants no more than 25, and I'm fairly certain 24 is the correct number), so I can't justify Elesh Norn or Sphinx there. If we want to cast these cards, we have to warp our deck to allow for playing 7 drops, and that means more lands.

16 lands, 4 mana drain 9 solomoxcrypt vault ( a tezzeret style manabase) is good enough to reliably be able to cast Consecrated sphinx by turn 4 especially with a number of cavern of souls. Draining into this thing is really not that hard at all and it wins the game all by itself more often than not.
Trinketmage into lotus also "makes" Elesh norn into a 4 drop.
There are also other "trump" Alternatives against delver that are cheaper such as Moat, but it can be nature's claimed, eaten by trygon or bypassed by flipped delvers, Elesh norn is impossible to deal with for them and is castable off cavern. Delver also has more juicy drain targets in Gush, Dack, Cruise than it did before.

[KanaKaishou]

If we want to talk about Trinket Mage as a mana source, I'm fine with that.

But Drain is not a mana source. Draining into things has never felt like a realistic gameplan, as Drain is a spell which is fought over more often than not. Does it happen that drain resolves and it's awesome? Sure, and you should attempt to include mana sinks in the deck to allow for these events to happen. But I'm so skeptical about the primary plan including "resolve drain, cast things."

[Chubby Rain]

If we want to talk about Trinket Mage as a mana source, I'm fine with that.

But Drain is not a mana source. Draining into things has never felt like a realistic gameplan, as Drain is a spell which is fought over more often than not. Does it happen that drain resolves and it's awesome? Sure, and you should attempt to include mana sinks in the deck to allow for these events to happen. But I'm so skeptical about the primary plan including "resolve drain, cast things."

I'm not sure if we are talking about Trinket Mage decks or still on Dance, Magic, Dance but I would argue that Mana Drain is not the primary plan for a Trinket Mage deck and that Mana Drain is a decent complement to Trinket Mage that happens to work well with Trinket Mage and his trinkets (i.e. Top, EE, etc.). If we are talking about Dance, Magic, Dance then I don't think Elesh Norn can be reliably cast and really would not recommend it in the current field. Spirit of the Lab is just too vulnerable in the current metagame to play outside of a white-hate bears deck that runs Moms, Thalias, and other disruption to overload Delvers removal.

[StrongSide]

Angel is a half-way measure that won't always do its job.  The way to rout Delver in a Cavern/Drain list is Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.  And as Josh said, include Mana Crypt. 

I read this and instantly became interested in that idea!

[brianpk80]

If we are talking about Dance, Magic, Dance then I don't think Elesh Norn can be reliably cast and really would not recommend it in the current field.

That's accurate.  The suggestions, including Josh's, were for msg67183's proposed UW list with the Containment Priests that cannot be definitively categorized. 

Angel is a half-way measure that won't always do its job.  The way to rout Delver in a Cavern/Drain list is Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. 

I read this and instantly became interested in that idea!

It's the best feeling in the world.  Elesh Norn is the ultimate cleansing against UR Delver, Hatebear, and Revoker/Manland issues.  She ushers the equanimity and the justice.  And alluded before, there are many Containment-proof viable ways to get her into play in the mid-game including Trinket Mage, Noble Hierarch, Mana Drain, and Lotus Cobra. 

[msg67183]

If we are talking about Dance, Magic, Dance then I don't think Elesh Norn can be reliably cast and really would not recommend it in the current field.

That's accurate.  The suggestions, including Josh's, were for msg67183's proposed UW list with the Containment Priests that cannot be definitively categorized. 

Angel is a half-way measure that won't always do its job.  The way to rout Delver in a Cavern/Drain list is Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. 

I read this and instantly became interested in that idea!

It's the best feeling in the world.  Elesh Norn is the ultimate cleansing against UR Delver, Hatebear, and Revoker/Manland issues.  She ushers the equanimity and the justice.  And alluded before, there are many Containment-proof viable ways to get her into play in the mid-game including Trinket Mage, Noble Hierarch, Mana Drain, and Lotus Cobra. 

Seems like Brian Kelly is breaking the format.

[KanaKaishou]

I'm somehow way more behind Elesh Norn in Noble Fish than DMD.

This might even be a real thing?

[Chubby Rain]

Seems like Brian Kelly is breaking the format.

He has been for a while. I'm just the only other person who has jumped on that train (so far).