Consult the Laboratory

[Soly]

So a year or to ago, I had this idea;  I tested it on Cockatrice and it was actually really good, but I couldn't find Japanese Divining Witch and now I'm retiring.  the Idea is to grind them out with 2/1 creatures, or kill them with Laboratory Maniac.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Divining Witch
3 Laboratory Maniac
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Mistep
2 Spell Pierce
3 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstrm
1 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Time Walk
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
4 Delta
2 misc. Blue fetch
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Library of Alexandria

[Commandant]

Cavern of Souls on Human. Seems good.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Yeah, like this guy:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11076&iddeck=80927

[xouman]

Nice decklist (in fact I got my Witches and maniacs after seeing this deck).
However I'm concerned about life loss, and having the maniac killed right after witch activation.

Probably I'll try this deck in the future

[Guli]

Could you share some replays of the test games? I would be very interested to watch you play.

[Soly]

Could you share some replays of the test games? I would be very interested to watch you play.

The really nice thing about Magic Online is eventually I will be able to play decks like this!

I'm going 100% Digital for those that didn't know.

[vaughnbros]

As someone who has won a number of matches with Divining witch -> lab man, I'm glad to see someone else trying it out.  The combo is essentially 7 mana total and takes two activation with the witch which is rather costly, but unrestricted 1 card combos that win the game are rare so the potential is great for it.  I was able to make it work in tournaments with dredge, and in testing with doomsday, but only as a plan b or sideboard transformation.  

I think the biggest strength of the combo is that it can be completely uncounterable with the use of cavern of souls, so that should be added without a doubt.  

Being a UB humans control deck there are obviously an enormous number of options for cards to play:  Trinket mage since sensei's top is so powerful with the combo (preventing removal from killing you), and he is also a human to be played off caverns.  Jace since his brainstorm can draw you the card to end the game, get rid of extra combo pieces, and just overall be broken.  Gitaxian probe since it synergizes well with snapcaster, lets you see if you are to clear to combo off, and can draw you the card to end the game.

Slightly off topic question:  What card do you usually name with divining witch when you just want to mill yourself?  I personally like this guy:

Sometimes I add the Questing before its name because apparently when it goes on quests its abilities change and its no longer legendary.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I love this deck...to play against.

Opp: "Cast maniac.  Resolve?"
Me: "Sure.  (My turn) Draw, tap swamp, duress...pull misd, pass."
Opp: "Done?  EoT activate witch naming Sedge Troll."
Me: "Sure. On your upkeep, abrupt decay your maniac."
Opp: "..., shit...gg."

[vaughnbros]

I love this deck...to play against.

Opp: "Cast maniac.  Resolve?"
Me: "Sure.  (My turn) Draw, tap swamp, duress...pull misd, pass."
Opp: "Done?  EoT activate witch naming Sedge Troll."
Me: "Sure. On your upkeep, abrupt decay your maniac."
Opp: "..., shit...gg."

Yep because abrupt decay is now split second and I'll just run into BG open when I don't know whats in their hand and have no protection.  In response tap my sensei's top, I win.  In response misdirection, I win.  In response brainstorm, I win.  In response ancestral recall, I win.  In response snapcaster flashback any of the above, I win.  There are lots of outs of abrupt decay.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Eh, true...I guess the deck is more resilient than I give it credit for.  I've just seen doomsday run this trick and stole many free games with decay after they try to gush for the win.

[Samoht]

Eh, true...I guess the deck is more resilient than I give it credit for.  I've just seen doomsday run this trick and stole many free games with decay after they try to gush for the win.

If you could be on Decay and have mana up, they are pretty bad for Gushing. They have time. No need to force the action. Seems like bad DDay pilots to me more than an inherent weakness.

[TheWhiteDragon]

My decks where said scenario happened, I was on Dark Times or Oath...so "they had time" isn't true.  Either they went for the win or they got smashed by Emrakul or Marit Lage.  If they have time to doomsday (or activate witch), and cast maniac, then odds are I've had equal time to do my own broken...it's not like I play "land, pass" every turn while they set up their win.

It's not the worst win condition, I'll grant that, but I do see a bit of fragility to it.  It's a weak critter in bolt and decay range and causes you to be in a position to flat out lose if he's removed.  With oath, goyfs, golems, etc., if the opponent answers, you are still in the game.  If maniac is answered, it's gg.

[shrewarmies]

This an old list that was ran to some success by another Australian player at the beginning of 2012.

Lands
4 Underground Sea
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
Artifacts
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Laboratory Maniac
1 Vendillion Clique
Planeswalker
1 Lilliana of the Veil
Instants
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Mental Misstep
1 Noxious Revival
2 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Gifts Ungiven
Sorceries
1 Preordain
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Imperial Seal
1 Time walk
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Unearth
Sideboard
1 Divert
2 Sea Drake
2 Engineered explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extract
1 Rebuild
3 Steel Sabotage
1 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Ghastly Demise

[TheWhiteDragon]

Given those provided lists, the control shell with great utility critters is the winning component.  I don't think maniac offers anything vs the risk when a vault/key/tinker/BSC package is more versatile, less slots, and less risky (even with BSC flip to bob).  Those are just as fast, the same 2 cards for a combo, and just flat out better imo.

[Guli]

Could you share some replays of the test games? I would be very interested to watch you play.

The really nice thing about Magic Online is eventually I will be able to play decks like this!

I'm going 100% Digital for those that didn't know.

Cockatrice has a replay system. You just upload the replay files somewhere and we can download and load the replay with Cockatrice.

Usually the replays are located on c:\users\'your username'\AppData\Local\Cockatrice\

[Soly]

Eh, true...I guess the deck is more resilient than I give it credit for.  I've just seen doomsday run this trick and stole many free games with decay after they try to gush for the win.

I can honestly say that I have never lost to Abrupt Decay with Doomsday.  You just assemple a pile that makes them have to act first, so you can respond.  I've even beaten double Abrupt Decay.

[vaughnbros]

Eh, true...I guess the deck is more resilient than I give it credit for.  I've just seen doomsday run this trick and stole many free games with decay after they try to gush for the win.

I can honestly say that I have never lost to Abrupt Decay with Doomsday.  You just assemple a pile that makes them have to act first, so you can respond.  I've even beaten double Abrupt Decay.

I can second this.  I've also never lost to my lab maniac being killed in response to me drawing my last card. 

Waiting until the last chance to disrupt the combo is extremely risky because of the number of outs that the deck has available to it.  You are much better off killing the witch before they even get the ball rolling.

Given those provided lists, the control shell with great utility critters is the winning component.  I don't think maniac offers anything vs the risk when a vault/key/tinker/BSC package is more versatile, less slots, and less risky (even with BSC flip to bob).  Those are just as fast, the same 2 cards for a combo, and just flat out better imo.

Divining witch is a 1 card combo not 2 and is uncounterable under cavern of souls.  So it is very different from all other currently played combos, if you had read the previous posts more carefully you should have realized this.

[xouman]

Besides time vault can be beaten with artifact hate (often as common as creature hate), misstep on key, stony silence/null rod... and as said, 2 combo cards and one of them restricted.

duress/gitaxian probes and snapcasters seem quite good in this deck, indeed. my question is: is doomsday worth testing in this deck? Pithing/revoker avoid 75% of the cards that allow emptying the library. And winning outside maniac seems quite hard.

@vaughnbros: do you have any list with trinkets? Currently I'm playing kind of bomberman and trinkets are always welcome.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Eh, true...I guess the deck is more resilient than I give it credit for.  I've just seen doomsday run this trick and stole many free games with decay after they try to gush for the win.

I can honestly say that I have never lost to Abrupt Decay with Doomsday.  You just assemple a pile that makes them have to act first, so you can respond.  I've even beaten double Abrupt Decay.

I can second this.  I've also never lost to my lab maniac being killed in response to me drawing my last card. 

Waiting until the last chance to disrupt the combo is extremely risky because of the number of outs that the deck has available to it.  You are much better off killing the witch before they even get the ball rolling.

Given those provided lists, the control shell with great utility critters is the winning component.  I don't think maniac offers anything vs the risk when a vault/key/tinker/BSC package is more versatile, less slots, and less risky (even with BSC flip to bob).  Those are just as fast, the same 2 cards for a combo, and just flat out better imo.

Divining witch is a 1 card combo not 2 and is uncounterable under cavern of souls.  So it is very different from all other currently played combos, if you had read the previous posts more carefully you should have realized this.

Except that neither list posted runs cavern (it was just suggested).  Also, I don't see how 4 witch is better than 4 DD.  It's 1 mana less, but you need to pass the turn (and need 3 to cast maniac anyway).  Yes, vaultkey or tinkerBSC are restricted cards, but it's also a much more condensed package.  Those 4 cards give you 2 paths to victory for cheap...and they're faster.  Instead, you run 6 or 7 cards for a maniac combo instead of +3 disruption.  And if you draw 2 or 3 maniacs instead of witches, that sucks.  If you draw BSC, that's the only one of the 4 cards you don't want to draw...and you still have a win con in the deck (and with brainstorm/jace/thirst, drawing BSC isn't an issue).

If you just want to play a deck with witch, fine.  But I see maniac as better and faster in hermit or oath or doomsday...and I'm still not sold on maniac altogether.  There's some merit to unrestricted combo, but there's also merit to a more concise and powerful package with additional slots for utility.  I thought the witch approach was a cute play in dredge sb, but as a main strategy, I think it is weaker than many other options (and the 3 strategies I mentioned if you insist on a maniac kill).

[vaughnbros]

@vaughnbros: do you have any list with trinkets? Currently I'm playing kind of bomberman and trinkets are always welcome.

When I get the chance I'll mock one up.

Except that neither list posted runs cavern (it was just suggested).  Also, I don't see how 4 witch is better than 4 DD.  It's 1 mana less, but you need to pass the turn (and need 3 to cast maniac anyway).  

-4 lands +4 cavern of souls.  Its not exactly a hard card to fit in.  Doomsday costs triple black, as well as half your life total, and essentially your entire library at its resolution.  The second you cast there is no going back, you have to win the next couple turns at the most or you are dead.  The story is rather different with Divining witch.  I can activate him once, twice, and if I'm lucky three times and I still don't necessarily have to be in a hurry to win immediately.  I can search up my lab maniac play it and sit on it only using divining witch to mill myself when I feel completely comfortable or I am forced to go off.   Also divining witch is capable of finding cards other than lab maniac, I've used him to search up a force of will, mental misstep, nature's claim, and other things in times of great need.

Yes, vaultkey or tinkerBSC are restricted cards, but it's also a much more condensed package.  Those 4 cards give you 2 paths to victory for cheap...and they're faster.  Instead, you run 6 or 7 cards for a maniac combo instead of +3 disruption.  And if you draw 2 or 3 maniacs instead of witches, that sucks.  If you draw BSC, that's the only one of the 4 cards you don't want to draw...and you still have a win con in the deck (and with brainstorm/jace/thirst, drawing BSC isn't an issue).

Blue grey ogres aren't actually that bad (I'm looking at you trinket mage).  They pitch to force and they are somewhat relevant in combat.  A vast majority of the time they are going to be better than key/vault without their counterpart or a bsc in hand.

If you just want to play a deck with witch, fine.  But I see maniac as better and faster in hermit or oath or doomsday

All of these decks are far far more vulnerable and require much greater deck building restrictions:
Hermit requires I play green, no basic lands, dread returns, and narcomoebas in my deck as well as opening me up to graveyard hate and wastelands.
Oath requires I play green, orchard, and no other creatures other than a singleton lab manic.  So now I can't play bob and it opens me up to enchantment hate as well as making me even more vulnerable to creature removal scenarios as I can only run 1 lab maniac and I'd probably have to rely on gaea's blessing or memory's journey to get it back if it dies, if its swords well...  
Doomsday this has been the most successful use for lab maniac thus far, I illustrated my argument against it earlier in this post.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Except that neither list posted runs cavern (it was just suggested).  Also, I don't see how 4 witch is better than 4 DD.  It's 1 mana less, but you need to pass the turn (and need 3 to cast maniac anyway).  

-4 lands +4 cavern of souls.  Its not exactly a hard card to fit in.  Doomsday costs triple black, as well as half your life total, and essentially your entire library at its resolution.  The second you cast there is no going back, you have to win the next couple turns at the most or you are dead.  The story is rather different with Divining witch.  I can activate him once, twice, and if I'm lucky three times and I still don't necessarily have to be in a hurry to win immediately.  I can search up my lab maniac play it and sit on it only using divining witch to mill myself when I feel completely comfortable or I am forced to go off.   Also divining witch is capable of finding cards other than lab maniac, I've used him to search up a force of will, mental misstep, nature's claim, and other things in times of great need.

Didn't say it was a hard fit...just that no list posted listed them.  They also cut off colored mana and don't help vs removal, so not the end all answer card.

Yes, vaultkey or tinkerBSC are restricted cards, but it's also a much more condensed package.  Those 4 cards give you 2 paths to victory for cheap...and they're faster.  Instead, you run 6 or 7 cards for a maniac combo instead of +3 disruption.  And if you draw 2 or 3 maniacs instead of witches, that sucks.  If you draw BSC, that's the only one of the 4 cards you don't want to draw...and you still have a win con in the deck (and with brainstorm/jace/thirst, drawing BSC isn't an issue).

Blue grey ogres aren't actually that bad (I'm looking at you trinket mage).  They pitch to force and they are somewhat relevant in combat.  A vast majority of the time they are going to be better than key/vault without their counterpart or a bsc in hand.

They may be better than half of any 2 card combo, but a 3 mana 2/2 is not something I'd call good.  Trinket has an ability when cast, so it's not even in the same ballpark.

If you just want to play a deck with witch, fine.  But I see maniac as better and faster in hermit or oath or doomsday

All of these decks are far far more vulnerable and require much greater deck building restrictions:
Hermit requires I play green, no basic lands, dread returns, and narcomoebas in my deck as well as opening me up to graveyard hate and wastelands.

More vulnerable, but MUCH faster.  You trade basic lands for being able to win by turn 2 with Force/daze/therapy backup.

Oath requires I play green, orchard, and no other creatures other than a singleton lab manic.  So now I can't play bob and it opens me up to enchantment hate as well as making me even more vulnerable to creature removal scenarios as I can only run 1 lab maniac and I'd probably have to rely on gaea's blessing or memory's journey to get it back if it dies, if its swords well...  

And how is UB control better able to defend vs swords than oath?  Last I checked, oath and doomsday both run counters too.  And if they answer maniac...fine, I memories journey yawg will and tendrils ftw.  Enchantment hate?  Fine, gushbond tendrils instead of oathing...or just cast lab and cast consultation.  Opponent have answers to maniac?  Board in grisel or emrakul.  Answers to oath?  Board in witch (I never said it was a bad sb tech).

Doomsday this has been the most successful use for lab maniac thus far, I illustrated my argument against it earlier in this post.
[/quote]

But you lose speed.  A pithing needle/revoker on witch basically nerfs the deck.  DD doesn't have that problem.

Like I said, if you just want to run witches and maniacs, fine...but it's not a better main strategy than other card combos.  I'll eat crow when I see it take a +25 man tourney down, but until then...

[vaughnbros]

@vaughnbros: do you have any list with trinkets? Currently I'm playing kind of bomberman and trinkets are always welcome.

Here's such a deck list (albeit with very little testing done):
4 Divining Witch
3 Laboratory Maniac
4 Dark Confidant
4 Trinket Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Thoughtseize
2 Misdirection

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Snuff Out
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top

This combo can be played in pretty much any deck capable of casting blue/black spells especially if its already running humans+caverns.  So focusing the discussion on just this list is not necessarily the best.

Like I said, if you just want to run witches and maniacs, fine...but it's not a better main strategy than other card combos.  I'll eat crow when I see it take a +25 man tourney down, but until then...

If you haven't realized the advantages of it by now I don't think you will, and obviously this discussion wouldn't be in the creative forum if it was already winning 25+ man tournaments.

[xouman]

Thanks for the list Lance! I agree the package could be fit indifferent decks. In fact, I'm begginning to think that it can be fitted in dark bomberman's SB, since it's inmune to grave and spheres (to a certain extent). Still, any list with wichtes should be tweaked, since witch works with 4of's or 3of's, not with singletons.º