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Smmenen
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« on: June 23, 2014, 04:10:48 pm » |
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« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 06:45:30 pm by Smmenen »
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TVand
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2014, 04:48:23 pm » |
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For anyone who wants to keep up with these events, the lists can be found here as they're posted: http://magic.wizards.com/en/gameinfo/products/magiconline/decklistsSo far the top decks have been pretty standard. The most interesting thing I recall seeing is the 2nd place Show and Tell list from 6/18, although that's clearly a suboptimal list as it lacks power. I wonder how long until we see some real innovation in the online metagame. |
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"They say that if you're crazy it makes you sane and, if you're sane, you'll never believe a word of this story."
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desolutionist
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2014, 05:43:25 pm » |
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I think budget is going to be a factor for a while, which is actually kind of cool for creativity
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Smmenen
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2014, 05:52:13 pm » |
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I looked on the scheduled events, and it says that there will be larger "premiere" events scheduled, with 32-64 players and a top 8. Any idea when those will fire?
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Kowal
My name is not Brian.
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Reanimate your feet!
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2014, 06:56:34 pm » |
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Getting 32 is tricky, but they queue up every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday evening around 8:30. The 16-man ones fire in theory every 8:30am, 6:30pm, and 9:30pm. The 9:30 one is pretty sure fire, but the 6:30 one is more competitive when it does. Budget seems to be only somewhat a concern - there are fully powered shop decks all over the place, but there are also loads of dredge decks because of their low price. It's rare to see genuine blue based control, but Delver is quite common. Delver mirrors are pretty frequent, which is why when they update the winning lists with the 75 cards I won with yesterday you'll see I'm running a LOT of maindeck Fire/Ice, 2 Dazes, and a full suite of Mental Missteps. And Steam Vents over moxen, but don't look at that.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2014, 12:53:55 am » |
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Shouldn't you have Misdirections then? It's the nuts against Bolt, etc. I ran two at the NYSE Open.
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Hrishi
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2014, 01:11:03 am » |
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Not sure if it's why he didn't, but Misdirections are incredibly expensive online (most cards from masques block are) so that certainly is an issue!
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Lyna turned to the figure beside her. "They're gone. What now?"
"As ever," said Urza, "we wait."
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Demagoguery
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2014, 01:32:37 am » |
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I think the major things we have to take into account are as follows:
1.) Certain cards are rarer online than they are in paper.
2.) It will take time for people to acquire all the cards for their decks, especially the power 9, as Vintage Masters is still rather fresh. Additionally, certain players, such as myself won't be joining the format as they simply can't maintain two collections, or don't enjoy playing the game online for various reasons.
3.) We probably won't see true innovation for a little while until the format becomes more common. This is rather important, as the initial stages of players getting into a new format is usually them copying known decks and seeing what works and why. Most people who are successful don't try to innovate the biggest and greatest thing their first week on the job, and I'm guessing the same will be for this format, we'll see a lot of familiar decks early on, and as time progresses we'll see more and more innovation because more people are comfortable with and recognize what's going on in our great format.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2014, 01:36:23 am » |
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I don't think the ultimate value in Magic Online Vintage will be innovation, but trend data.
I agree that the 'card' pool is constrained right now. I only own one piece of power so far.
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Demagoguery
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2014, 01:51:17 am » |
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I think it will be both really, because if the road to success is paved with failure, it's a lot better to have a lot of failures throwing themselves into the ring...
In all honesty, how much innovations can we have when most players only play in tournaments once a month with the same 10-50 people every time? This isn't to say that people aren't coming up with new ideas all the time, but it is to say that when you have more people throwing more nonsense out there, you're bound to get gold more often, it's simple probability really. Then again, I remember Legacy before and after it became endorsed by both SCG and Wizards, when things like Welder Survival and Iggy Pop were the best decks, and how the format turned into the refined tempo game that it is today.
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Coopes
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2014, 03:13:35 am » |
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Sad the daily results only post one instead of both that fired, but one had 16 ppl and the other 18 ppl so they choose the higher # one. Anyway, I ran Guli's humans list for a 4-0 earlier and a 3-1 the day before, and it was quite fun  . I'm also brand new here and to vintage in general, and this is my first post. I've spent the majority of my time on MTGO this past year and just found out about this forum when vintage masters came out, I've learned a lot already just reading through here! If you guys have any MTGO specifics questions I'd be happy to do my best to answer them. |
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Kowal
My name is not Brian.
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Posts: 2497
Reanimate your feet!
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2014, 08:20:53 am » |
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It's an interesting world, but I agree with statements it'll take some time before we see any major innovations. One thing of note is that because the events are shorter and require less physical investment to play (no travel, etc) people are fine taking risks with their lists instead of playing it safe with a known archetype. Because of this, we'll see a lot of out-there attempts where some of them are legitimate and the vast majority are actually just bad. Such is the price of experimentation!
To answer the question posed to be above, I like Misdirection a lot in the list and would probably run it if not for the fact it's a $75 card on the internet. That said, Bolt and Abrupt Decay aren't the cards I really care about (unless I'm defending a Cage against Oath I guess) but Fire/Ice and to a lesser extent Toxic Deluge are quite dangerous. MisD doesn't really help me there, so it may not make the cut anyway.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2014, 08:44:19 am » |
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Imagine a world where you have MUD being a cheaper alternative to Control and Combo decks. Then consider that MUD has comparatively few decision trees and that suddenly Vintage was rapidly gaining in popularity. Consider people have been messing up with what to tutor for in control decks, how and when to go off in combo, or even which list seems good from whatever article they decided to use as a springboard of Vintage knowledge.
Once that's all sunk in, consider that MUD is generally a high-seed deck in swiss that doesn't always tend to wash out favorably in the t8 and that daily events are the format that is regularly firing, requiring only 3-0 since most people just split the last round (prize disparagement between a 4-0 record and a 3-1 record is largely to blame). This also bolsters MUDs showings as a 4-0 list, which compounds its popularity.
You may choose to add in a dash of it's top 8 presence at NYSE for punctuation.
You'd have a lot of MUD showing up to play, and it's dominating. That's the initial trend anyway. What Demagoguery described, for many people, already happened. Initially it was Delver and BUG Fish all over, then people moved to MUD. There wasn't any innovation. It was people shopping the available deck types out.
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Founder, Admin of TheManaDrain.com
Team Meandeck: Because Noble Panther Decks Keeper
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Montolio
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2014, 08:58:15 am » |
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Getting 32 is tricky, but they queue up every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday evening around 8:30. Part of the problem with the PE (would love to see these fire) is that there is overlap with the 6:30 EST DE. The PE fires at 8:30 EST. So there is somwehere between 16-20 people tied up in the earlier queue that are still in round 3 when the PE is saddled up and ready to go. I have seen no more then 10 people in the PE. I have requested a time change from the power that be at wotc, but we will see. The thing that irks me the most is that wotc shaved prize support from the life line (DE's) to boost PE price support. This will never equal out if PE's dont' ever fire due to poor timing. I have done 9 Vintage DE's now and am seeing all the regular characters in BUG, UR Delver, Storm, Oath, Grixis control, MUD (all variants), Merfolk, GWB H8, White trash and Dredge. I think everyone that is playing is fully powered. However yesterday I did see one fellow that was playing an obvious budget deck with alot of shock lands (didn't fair well for him). I have never played real life Vintage, but have followed here at themanadrain for quite sometime. Having played on modo over the last few weeks I can tell you it is an amazing experice. |
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« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 09:06:34 am by Montolio »
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I've sparred with Demon's from the Nine Hells I say. I shall barely break a sweat here today!
Twitter handle @TheALPHA7
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yugular
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2014, 01:02:44 pm » |
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Sad the daily results only post one instead of both that fired, but one had 16 ppl and the other 18 ppl so they choose the higher # one. Anyway, I ran Guli's humans list for a 4-0 earlier and a 3-1 the day before, and it was quite fun . I'm also brand new here and to vintage in general, and this is my first post. I've spent the majority of my time on MTGO this past year and just found out about this forum when vintage masters came out, I've learned a lot already just reading through here! If you guys have any MTGO specifics questions I'd be happy to do my best to answer them. Where can I find this Guli's list? |
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Coopes
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2014, 04:58:02 pm » |
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Sad the daily results only post one instead of both that fired, but one had 16 ppl and the other 18 ppl so they choose the higher # one. Anyway, I ran Guli's humans list for a 4-0 earlier and a 3-1 the day before, and it was quite fun . I'm also brand new here and to vintage in general, and this is my first post. I've spent the majority of my time on MTGO this past year and just found out about this forum when vintage masters came out, I've learned a lot already just reading through here! If you guys have any MTGO specifics questions I'd be happy to do my best to answer them. Where can I find this Guli's list? |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2014, 01:18:03 pm » |
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I've been updating the original post, and will continue to do so. Increasingly interesting decks!
One of the 4-0s looks alot like my URg Delver from NYSE. About 2-3 cards difference in the maindeck.
One of the 3-1s is Nat Moes Regrowth Gush TPS deck.
Another 3-1 is my Pitch Burning Tendrils. Awesome!
That guy montolio hardly loses with MUD. Wish I could be playing. I'm only 2 of 9 powered so far (and I can't play during the day anyway).
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« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 01:44:32 pm by Smmenen »
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MisterFoote
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« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2014, 01:57:01 pm » |
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I've been running a U/R and RUG list that are very close to your list. A few minor changes. It would be nice if they posted all the results. So far I've gone 4-0 and 3-1 with the changes to RUG. Had to adjust to the strong workshops meta that was running around. A lot of Staff of Nin found its way into sideboard and even main decks to combat with the all of the 1 butts I provide. I also find it hard to pay as much for a misdirection as I do for a mox. So until that changes I'm simply going another direction. It's nice to see so many people here on the drain in these events. They have been quality events with a high quality player base. I'm really hoping the PE event fires tonight.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2014, 02:18:20 pm » |
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In this MUD dominated meta, it's not like Misdirection would grant you a better footheold (see what I did there).
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Founder, Admin of TheManaDrain.com
Team Meandeck: Because Noble Panther Decks Keeper
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Tutor
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« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2014, 02:23:01 pm » |
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Last daily looks awsome was a resume of decks I want!!!
I´m tryin to finish Storm Variations Like Regrowth, Talrand, and TPS. Only one I have finished is Burning, w/o FoW and Misdirection (couse price of misdirection) duress version.
URg its my next focus, and maybe MUD.
Dredge? nah......its a love and hate for me.
Oath, i like it....but same problem for me with Show and Tell, as Misdirections....prices.
I think after that will get the 2 decks i always loved ...Parfait and UW control (snapcaster, jace, trinket)
I cant wait to get better on Burning Storm (for me its the best one) and start playin some tourneys. Im just too retarded to play with storm decks..lol. I finished my real life MTG Vintage with Grow-a-Tog, so i need to remember things again. And other "fun" deck is infect deck, but not confortable with that.
So, its good idea get a Wasteland now? I see prices goin up, but i see many options of good decks w/o wastelands...idk if this make ppl drop prices.
And grats for TMD ppl in tourney !
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dangerlinto
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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2014, 02:32:41 pm » |
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That guy montolio hardly loses with MUD. Wish I could be playing. I'm only 2 of 9 powered so far (and I can't play during the day anyway).
There's several reasons Andy is so good with shops. 1) He's a great player. 2) Shops wasn't that much different when it was Classic, and he's played eleventy-million prize-on-the-line games with shops. Cause online let's you do that instead of once a week. 3) The third reason is a not-so secret and involves an unfair advantage totally unavoidable by his opponents |
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MisterFoote
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« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2014, 02:36:02 pm » |
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In this MUD dominated meta, it's not like Misdirection would grant you a better footheold (see what I did there).
Well Done! |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2014, 05:59:05 pm » |
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I've been running a U/R and RUG list that are very close to your list. A few minor changes. It would be nice if they posted all the results. So far I've gone 4-0 and 3-1 with the changes to RUG. Had to adjust to the strong workshops meta that was running around. A lot of Staff of Nin found its way into sideboard and even main decks to combat with the all of the 1 butts I provide. I also find it hard to pay as much for a misdirection as I do for a mox. So until that changes I'm simply going another direction. It's nice to see so many people here on the drain in these events. They have been quality events with a high quality player base. I'm really hoping the PE event fires tonight.
Thanks for the explanation. Given the density of MUD, why not run the 2nd Trygon then? Trygon is good against Staff. You cut one. Also, I would definitely play the 14th land, perhaps in addition to the third Mox. |
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MisterFoote
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« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2014, 08:10:53 pm » |
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Trygon has proven to be too clunky. He is just not fast enough consistently to give the impact needed to get ahead v shops. He can be a bomb for sure. I think any who has played trygon knows how awesome it can be. I'm testing the deck without him entirely and put the Steel Sabotage back in the main deck. I think its the right choice given the choice of pyromancer. The main deck grudge is also great. The real bread and butter has been Artifact Mutation. Kowal and I work on this deck together a lot. The card was his idea, and I just happened to be the first to test it. It is an absolute blowout. Every time. I'm considering an extra land right now. I think it's going to be Strip Mine. It makes sense with the main deck grudge. With the addition of mutation and grudges, this deck seems quite well rounded. But we'll see.
EDIT: I'm also having a ton of fun with Noxious Revival, but still not entirely sold on it.
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« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 08:14:20 pm by MisterFoote »
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Smmenen
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« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2014, 08:53:34 pm » |
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I have used artifact mutation before: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=6567http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/224I played it for several years. I'm not a fan of it here because you have to fetch out two duals and you have to have both untapped. It was really good a decade ago, but I don't like it these days. I played Trygon at NYSE and it was great against Shops. It's really good right now because if the Dack dynamic. Edit: Trygon is also not supposed to be fast enough. He's part of a synergistic package that is good enough to warrant main decking. If you are using Trygon to solve the match, your using him wrong. |
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« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 09:06:57 pm by Smmenen »
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MisterFoote
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« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2014, 11:10:55 pm » |
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I'm not a fan of it here because you have to fetch out two duals and you have to have both untapped.
I'm failing to see the logic in this statement. Doesn't this apply to every spell? Regardless, the tone of your statement is kind of a turnoff to a legitimate conversation about the deck. Linking a couple of articles and making a couple of redundant statements followed by simply stating that I am wrong is no way to engage anyone. In short, You win? If you'd like to continue discussion about this I'd be happy to. But spare me the articles from ten years ago, and put some actual thought into it. |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2014, 12:04:10 am » |
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I'm not a fan of it here because you have to fetch out two duals and you have to have both untapped.
I'm failing to see the logic in this statement. Doesn't this apply to every spell? No. Natures claim, ingot chewer, and Ancient Grudge can all be cast, in the instance, of one dual land and basics. Artifact Mutation requires two dual lands to be cast. You could, in theory, just hold up Fetchlands, but you often need that mana to play Preordains, and things like that. Artifact Mutation being an instant is sometimes viewed as an advantage (especially cards like Ingot Chewer), but the problem is that Tangle Wire, just as often than not, can break that up because it can force you to tap down half of the colored mana needed to cast this in your upkeep, when you are often just one mana off from casting it, play your next land, but then they Waste one of the duals in play before you can get to your next upkeep. This is a chief flaw in Artifact Mutation that has only gotten worse as they've printed more Spheres, and is the main reason it's disappeared from sbs of blue decks. Example of what I mean: You have Tropical Island and a basic Island in play in your upkeep, and they have Thorn + Wire in play. You tap your two lands in your upkeep, and play your fetch. If Mutation had been a Nature's Claim, you could have played it here in your upkeep. Alternatively, if Mutation is an Ingot Chewer, you can still play it this turn. This kind of sequence comes up too frequently to justify running AM over alternatives.
Regardless, the tone of your statement is kind of a turnoff to a legitimate conversation about the deck.
Linking a couple of articles and making a couple of redundant statements followed by simply stating that I am wrong is no way to engage anyone. In short, You win?
If you'd like to continue discussion about this I'd be happy to. But spare me the articles from ten years ago, and put some actual thought into it.
I was illustrating that Artifact mutation is not new technology. It's old, and outmoded. There is a reason no one plays it in paper tournaments in blue decks: http://morphling.de/search.php?type=3&app=10&sorting=DESC&search=Artifact+Mutation&sent=1But, if you like it, I can't dissuade you from playing it. On a related note, it's kinda strange to complain about MUD, and cut a land. |
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 12:51:55 am by Smmenen »
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MisterFoote
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2014, 12:53:30 am » |
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So, what is your point?
I mean I've heard you were quite the character. But I'm just not sure who you are trying to convince what here. You aren't really making any clear points outside of things we all know about the cards. You basically just made your first statement a little longer without actually furthering the conversation. Beat a dead horse much?
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GainsBanding
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2014, 01:13:31 am » |
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That guy montolio hardly loses with MUD. Wish I could be playing. I'm only 2 of 9 powered so far (and I can't play during the day anyway).
There's several reasons Andy is so good with shops. 1) He's a great player. 2) Shops wasn't that much different when it was Classic, and he's played eleventy-million prize-on-the-line games with shops. Cause online let's you do that instead of once a week. 3) The third reason is a not-so secret and involves an unfair advantage totally unavoidable by his opponents 3) Foils topdeck better? |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2014, 01:14:13 am » |
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So, what is your point?
I mean I've heard you were quite the character. But I'm just not sure who you are trying to convince what here. You aren't really making any clear points outside of things we all know about the cards. You basically just made your first statement a little longer without actually furthering the conversation. Beat a dead horse much?
 You obviously know my point by this point. I'm not sure why you'd ask that if you don't want me to beat a dead horse. |
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