Sloth
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« on: July 03, 2014, 08:17:43 am » |
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 I know this just makes a vanilla creature that can two for one you, but it's blue and can swing for 5 on turn 2. This sounds really playable to me. Added Pic. -MM
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 01:09:20 pm by Meddling Mike »
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gkraigher
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2014, 08:43:20 am » |
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Agreed, this card is good
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MTGFan
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2014, 09:01:38 am » |
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Now this seems eminently playable in Vintage.
Turn a late-game superfluous Mox into a 5/5 dude? Turn an early-game Mox into a 4-turn clock on your opponent?
2 mana 5/5s are definitely playable if you can accept the risk of being Karn'd or Mox Monkey'd.
This is a better Phyrexian Negator that pitches to Force.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2014, 09:21:20 am » |
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Late game?! Turn a turn 1 mox into a 5/5.
This card has huge applications to vintage.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2014, 09:36:48 am » |
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Late game?! Turn a turn 1 mox into a 5/5.
This card has huge applications to vintage.
I was trying to highlight that this is not a bad draw later on, like some early tempo cards are. This has applications both early *and* late game. That makes it a really good card.
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Random Noob
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x=0²
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2014, 09:38:20 am » |
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Well, was waiting for something in the cmc 2 slot. Here it is.
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Demagoguery
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2014, 09:46:22 am » |
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It's pretty decent but it does open you up to 2 for 1s if they have a removal spell, while also hurting your mana because you're probably putting this on a Moxen. That being said, most people who have played against me recently know how much I like making 5/5s with Tezz 2.0.
All and all, I think there will be a deck for it, but it's not something that's overly good. Especially when it basically gets removed by a Steel Sabotage. Although, killing a Jace with a surprise 5/5 haste guy is nifty.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2014, 10:27:39 am » |
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I can really see this in a blue aggro shell. You need artifacts, so you run full moxen and 4x chalice. 4 of this thing and 4 of the 2U 4/4 angel, since you'll have lots of 0 drops to count as your first spell. Tezz 2.0 (and maybe 1.0) vault, key (no longer dead since it's at least a cheap 5/5), BSC, tinker (plenty of targets to sac), SDT, and then misstep, pierce, FoW. Maybe even snaps to round out the list and add to the aggro.
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"I know to whom I owe the most loyalty, and I see him in the mirror every day." - Starke of Rath
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ben_berry
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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2014, 10:40:21 am » |
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Oh that's a nice 5/5 blightsteel you have there.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2014, 11:29:32 am » |
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Oh that's a nice 5/5 blightsteel you have there.
Two turn clock is still a clock. Evil Sissors may be a good panic button, but let's not start thinking it's a good answer. Anyway, whether Sissors is good or not I think depends on what you compare it to. Is it as good as Goyf? Well, it will be bigger initially, but it depends on you having an artifact. For powered players, that's trivial. And being Blue is awesome. But, it does open you up to potential 2-for-1s if the artifact is wrecked. So probably... not as good as Goyf, but in Vintage, very close to that power level. I think I want to see how this compares to Auras that make a creature into a 5/5. For example, if you're playing an aggro deck in Standard, I'm not convinced that Sissors is any better than just slapping Madcap skills on your 2-power 1 drop. So, I ran a Gatherer search on all 2cc or less enchantments that mention creatures and are ranked at 4 or better by the community. Here are the contenders: Animate Dead - Probably gets you better than a 5/5 for 2 mana, but requires more setup than just having a Mox in play and opens you up to yard hate. Not a great comparator to Sissors. Clout of the Dominus (and Co.) - Putting these Lorywn block Auras on a two power one drop of the right colors comes very close to approximating Sissors. Like, say you cast a Dryad Militant and enchant it with the G/W part of this cycle. Then it's a 4/3 with two relevant abilities. Or perhaps better, say you use the same Aura on Naya Hushblade. Now you have a 5/4 with shroud and other abilities. This seems pretty close to what you're accomplishing with Scissors, honestly. Sissors is probably still a little tiny bit better because you will be more likely to have an artifact to target than a creature, most of the time. Still... without a target, a Lorywn Aura is just as useless as Sissors. Genju of the Spires - I mention only the Spires one because thats' the only one I've ever seen played. In a Moon deck, Spires is actually a huge beating. I suspect that Sissors is about as good as the best Genju. It costs more, and it is less likely to have a target. On the flip side, it requires no activation cost, which is very important. Still, these are pretty close to what Sissors is doing. Unstable Mutation - Hah, remember this guy? Put this on your 2 power 1 drop and you've got yourself the 5 power for the same price as Sissors. Sure, it doesn't stick around forever, but it seems comparable. My conclusion: Sissors is probably fine but not really a huge departure from what we already have. It seems like a different take on the Genju cycle, and those are only fringe playable. Sissors might see more play because it's blue, and blue now gets the best creatures in Magic apparently. But I don't think it's even as good as Goyf.
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xouman
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2014, 12:24:16 pm » |
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I was going to say this card is crap. Just one ability from tezz 2.0? I'd compare it to unsummon from jace... but then I remembered second abitilty from tezz 1.0. or brainstorm from jace, really playable abilities as 1 card. However I'm not sold. I won't play this since a grudge makes it a 2 x 0.5.
Good news is that gorilla shaman does not kill it (it's a creature), but karn does if played on a mox. And every other artifact destruction/bounce...
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enderfall
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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2014, 01:13:34 pm » |
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A vanilla 5/5 for two mana that requires 2 cards? How is this that much better than Tarmogoyf (beside it actually being Blue)? At least Tarmogoyf costs just 1 card and could be a 5/6 or 6/7 in some games.
I ask only because decks that would want to play this will only have Moxes/Sol/Crypt as targets, with SDT occasionally. Playing it on an opponents artifact in order to remove it, with say StP, is a very poor use of the card compared to Ancient Grudge or other artifact removal, thus it requires your own artifacts to have value.
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JPoJohnson
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« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2014, 01:33:32 pm » |
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I don't see this getting play in Vintage. Perhaps modern and most likely standard to some extent, but the potential to lose more than you gain is pretty big here. I think the card is just fine, but I find it difficult to think of shells that I would rather play this card OVER another one.
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“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle". - Albert Einstein
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Eastman
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« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2014, 02:19:36 pm » |
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It is really tempting since its tarmogoyf power and cost in blue. But I'm shuddering thinking about how Jace TMS actually kills this, and it makes abrupt decay a 2 for 1. Overall well designed with some interesting pros and cons.
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serracollector
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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2014, 03:06:22 pm » |
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I think I would like to try this out in UG enchantress with Grafdigger's Cages, Pithing Needles, and the few moxen it would most likely run. 5/5 for 2 mana with Cantrip+ is not bad at all.
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B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2014, 03:46:27 pm » |
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A 5/5 haste for 1U certainly has a lot of potential. It's vunerable to enchantment, artifact and creature removal and requires you to have a sufficient number of artifacts. I'm not sure there is an existing deck that wants it.
Maybe we have enough cards to justify a mid ranged Ux artifact aggro deck? As whitedragon brought up we have the 2U 4/4 flier that requires you've cast a spell that has never been able to find a home either.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2014, 04:01:35 pm » |
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Ux? Between Soul, Delver, and True Name, (and Clique and Jace) why even bother playing any other color ever again? Blue now has some of the game's strongest creatures all along its early curve for an aggro plan.
I guess one way to drop the price of dual lands is to remove any incentive to play anything other than blue, huh?
EDIT: Here's a decklist.
Aggo Plan (10) 4 Delver of Secrets 4 Dangerous Sissors 2 True Name Nemesis
Combo Plan (2) 1 Blightsteel Collosus 1 Tinker
Disruption (20) 2 Pithing Needle 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 4 Force of Will 4 Mana Drain 6 (Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm / Annul / Steel Sabotage, mix with board) 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Chain of Vapor
Card Draw (7) 1 Brainstorm 1 Ancestral Recall 2 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Merchant Scroll 1 Thirst for Knowledge
Mana'n'Things (22) 8 Solmoxlotuscrypt 4 Wasteland 3 Seat of the Synod 6 Island
With 15 artifacts and 20+ instants/sorceries, both Delver and Sissors are going to be online reliably.
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« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 04:10:00 pm by MaximumCDawg »
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2014, 04:07:39 pm » |
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Ux? Between Soul, Delver, and True Name, (and Clique and Jace) why even bother playing any other color ever again? Blue now has some of the game's strongest creatures all along its early curve for an aggro plan.
I guess one way to drop the price of dual lands is to remove any incentive to play anything other than blue, huh?
Blue still isn't efficient at removing permanents and there is relatively no drawback to a 2 color mana base.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2014, 04:10:41 pm » |
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Blue counters or bounces permanents, which is fine against anything that does not start with "Abrupt."
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2014, 04:14:40 pm » |
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Blue counters or bounces permanents, which is fine against anything that does not start with "Abrupt."
Bounce+counter = inefficient way of removing a permanent.
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2014, 05:01:25 pm » |
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I had to think about this for a while, but I think it enables a pretty insane BUG list. Long story short a turn 1 5/5 gives Workshop aggro and Guli.dec fits. The usual 1 mana removal spells get a tremendous boost from this as does Abrupt Decay. I think Misdirection might go back to maindeck play. Auras can be Misdirected on the stack which means that Misdirection can also be used to "steal" these things.
Also something to think about, this is a 5/5 with "haste" since the Mox could have been under your control at the start of the turn. This is actually a Jace killer.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2014, 05:30:49 pm » |
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I guess one way to drop the price of dual lands is to remove any incentive to play anything other than blue, huh? I think it is clear, since the printing of ancestral and counterspell back in Alpha, that blue was the only color ever intended to be played. WotC is pushing that agenda well. Blue is now the color of giant, cheap creatures? Add to that draw, tutor (tinker, gifts, intuition, scroll, mystical), unconditional removal (boomerang, CoV, e-truth), the best planeswalker (JtMS), disruption (counters, B2B, eye of chaos), and mana ramp (mana drain), I do believe that blue now does EVERY action in vintage better than any other color. When the next set comes in and blue gets reanimation and exiling cards, then I think it's time to hang up everything that doesn't tap for or cost blue. *edit* Snapcaster mage - forgot, blue already has some damn good reanimation.
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"I know to whom I owe the most loyalty, and I see him in the mirror every day." - Starke of Rath
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2014, 05:54:37 pm » |
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Ux? Between Soul, Delver, and True Name, (and Clique and Jace) why even bother playing any other color ever again? Blue now has some of the game's strongest creatures all along its early curve for an aggro plan.
I guess one way to drop the price of dual lands is to remove any incentive to play anything other than blue, huh?
EDIT: Here's a decklist.
Aggo Plan (10) 4 Delver of Secrets 4 Dangerous Sissors 2 True Name Nemesis
Combo Plan (2) 1 Blightsteel Collosus 1 Tinker
Disruption (20) 2 Pithing Needle 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 4 Force of Will 4 Mana Drain 6 (Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm / Annul / Steel Sabotage, mix with board) 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Chain of Vapor
Card Draw (7) 1 Brainstorm 1 Ancestral Recall 2 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Merchant Scroll 1 Thirst for Knowledge
Mana'n'Things (22) 8 Solmoxlotuscrypt 4 Wasteland 3 Seat of the Synod 6 Island
With 15 artifacts and 20+ instants/sorceries, both Delver and Sissors are going to be online reliably.
Only 22 cards that flip delver seems very sketchy. Running Delver alongside the jace-tinker package is kind of asking for trouble. I think you will have to choose either this card or delver. This card is a good jace killer, although Tezz, AoB seems better.
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The Auriok have fought the metal hordes for so long now that knowing how to cripple them has become an instinct. -Metal Fatigue
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Phele
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Tom Bombadil
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« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2014, 11:33:15 pm » |
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Ux? Between Soul, Delver, and True Name, (and Clique and Jace) why even bother playing any other color ever again? Blue now has some of the game's strongest creatures all along its early curve for an aggro plan.
I guess one way to drop the price of dual lands is to remove any incentive to play anything other than blue, huh?
EDIT: Here's a decklist.
Aggo Plan (10) 4 Delver of Secrets 4 Dangerous Sissors 2 True Name Nemesis
Combo Plan (2) 1 Blightsteel Collosus 1 Tinker
Disruption (20) 2 Pithing Needle 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 4 Force of Will 4 Mana Drain 6 (Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm / Annul / Steel Sabotage, mix with board) 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Chain of Vapor
Card Draw (7) 1 Brainstorm 1 Ancestral Recall 2 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Merchant Scroll 1 Thirst for Knowledge
Mana'n'Things (22) 8 Solmoxlotuscrypt 4 Wasteland 3 Seat of the Synod 6 Island
With 15 artifacts and 20+ instants/sorceries, both Delver and Sissors are going to be online reliably.
Couldn't Thoughtcast be an option?
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Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow; Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
Free Illusionary Mask!!
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2014, 09:00:36 pm » |
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Why not just use an old vintage affinity list and slap in 4 of these to boost your U count for FoW and ensoul your darksteel citadels for a turn 2 indestructible 5/5?
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"I know to whom I owe the most loyalty, and I see him in the mirror every day." - Starke of Rath
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tribet
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« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2014, 05:51:31 am » |
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We are getting closer from being able to run Serra's Sanctum in Vintage!
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Shock Wave
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« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2014, 02:28:26 pm » |
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I'm going to bet on this card seeing a lot of play. It seems very good, especially as a board card for certain strategies.
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"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt
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Protoaddict
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« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2014, 03:47:34 pm » |
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So would it make sense to stop thinking of a delver shell since this deck is heavily artifact based and runs less instants and maybe think of something more self reliant or aggressive? I'm thinking either you could try Phantasmal Bear in the main deck instead of delver if you want to play the same shell, or alternately go affinity like a baller.
4 Ensoul Artifact 4 Force of will 2 Spell pierce 1 Flusterswarm 4 Thoughtcast 1 Time walk 1 Timetwister 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Tinker
4 Frogmite 4 Myr Enforcer 3 Memnite 4 Master of etherium 3 Cranial Plating
5 Moxen 1 Mox opal 1 Lotus 1 Sol ring 1 Mana Crypt 1 Time vault 1 Voltaic Key
4 Seat of the synod 8 Islands
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Eastman
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« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2014, 09:16:36 am » |
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One other thought is Oath of Druids. This opens up design space for adding to an Oath deck an efficient beater/blocker/jace protector that pitches to force and MisD. Oath decks sometimes struggle with threat density so it's not crazy. Not saying it will fly in this meta, but it's something to keep in mind for the brewers going forward.
Also this plays nice with the Voltaic Keys hanging around in many decks, giving quasi-vigilance.
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 09:30:43 am by Eastman »
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2014, 12:19:46 pm » |
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Eastman, thats the most sensible post in the entire thread so far. This is like being able to play an almost-goyf in an Oath deck. The problem is that playing your almost-goyf still interacts badly with Oath. If you deploy a creature, then you're kind of locked in because playing Oath might result in your opponent getting to Oath first.
Even so, I like the concept. Perhaps this works in a deck featuring Oath as a board against Shops moreso than a dedicated Oath build? Against shops, either one is a solid turn 1 play.
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