[jou] triton shorestalker

[gkraigher]

I think we overlooked this guy.  It's both a merfolk and a rogue, both of which are great creature types in vintage.  Rogues have access to Earwig Squad and Oona's Blackguard (whose ability is cumulative).  Merfolk has Lords.  

Let's quickly do some math when it comes to merfolk.  Joel Lim's winning decklist from 2013 featured 11 Lords and 3 phantasmal images, which I'll clump as a lord.  If you expect to draw 11 total cards in a vintage game, then you would expect to see 2.57 (14/60 * 11) lords in a game.  Because things get killed, and nothing on paper turns out to be a reality, lets say this card is safely a 2/2 on turn 2 and a 3/3 on turn 3.  That is 8 damage on turn 4 for a 1 mana investment.  Those numbers sound good, and include assumptions, assumptions like only drawing 11 cards.  Every lightning bolt you use on this guy is one less you have for a lord.  

This card is unblockable, which is very much like true-name nemesis.  While nemesis has the benefit of protection, this card has the benefit of costing a single mana.  It does somewhere between 2-6 damage before true-name gets summoning sickness.  

Let's talk about Rogues.  If Earwig Squad and Blackguard have a place in any eternal format, it has to be vintage.  If you land an Earwig squad on turn 2, you would have a high probability of beating a majority of tier 1 decks in the format.  Blightsteel is gone from Tinker and Forgemaster decks.  Bridge from Below, okay you've got one.  Griselbrand, no more.  It's a great play vs. every deck that isn't a creature based deck.  

This card seems really good to me.  

[zeus-online]

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[Samoht]

Merfolk plays Cursecatcher because it's one of the best 1 drops of all time. It creates a clock and allows you to invest into a counterspell for the future. Add in that it's on board so it inherently slows down your opponent and the card is stellar.

This card is simply a clock. Sadly, it's unblockable clause is irrelevant in 35% of your match ups, if not more. By and large, I don't see this card doing anything for Merfolk.

Now, for Tribal Rogue it could be the bees knees. I'd have to really play with it to know, but it does turn on Earwig Squad which I have seen decimate people. As such, I won't dismiss it outright but I do think we need a lot more than this to really make any tribal deck better than Wizards, Humans, or Merfolk.

[StanleyAugust]

Eh what should this replace in Merfolks?

[Protoaddict]

Merfolk are by and large unblockable anyways because of islandwalk from the lords or being bigger than the opponent. Being actually unblockable seems so very marginal unless they are running equipment. There is nothing this guy would replace in merfolk so I dont see him ever being played.

The card is actually strictly worse than Triton Shorethief or Merfolk spy in a good number of relevant matches too, and those cards will never see play and are also rogues.

Also, earwig squad is really strong in vintage no doubt, but what is the list that is going to make a 1/1 unblockable worth playing in vintage, what other utility does it have? If we are basically going to take a card and rip it up in order to enable Earwig, maybe we should consider just running dark ritual/Sadistic Sacrement at that point?

[MaximumCDawg]

I don't think we overlooked this card.  Its good, and obsoletes Merfolk of the Pearl Trident, but it just has no place in competitive Vintage.

I love me some rogue decks, and there this pairs with prickly boggart, but let's be honest: that's a deck you play for the lols

[serracollector]

adding this to merfolk would be like adding flying men to humans. it can get past golem and goyf but your still gonna take five.

[Guli]

Since when does Merfolk have problems with evasion?

[gkraigher]

The card replaces True-Name nemesis, simply because it is cheaper.    

Merfolk doesn't necessarily have a problem with evasion, but sometimes when it wants evasion it does.  I've been playing merfolk in modern lately and the first assumption is "I'll beat creature based decks because my fish have evasion, are bigger than yours, and keep growing."  Well, it turns out islandwalk isn't that important unless you also drop a spreading seas, creatures get killed so my mefolk are not bigger, and if I've played my cards right all I need to do is push through for a few more damage in order to win the game.  Playing this guy has been a breakthrough against a lot of decks I thought I had beat on paper, but in reality it was much tougher.  

If you are playing a MUD opponent and have a choice between shorestalker or cursecatcher on turn 1, shorestalker gets the nod.  Same situation vs. Dredge.  Same situation vs. Goblins, White Hate Bears, heck even Oath of Druids can play without Islands on the board and maybe this card pushes through a Grislebrand and no island board.  (I'm definitely drawing a short straw in the Oath argument.)

There is a situation in the mirror match where you draw multiple Cavern of Souls and other colorless lands that makes not playing an island the entire game a great strategy.  

In vintage, you run wastelands and strip mine, so no islands on your opponent's side can be a thing.  

[Protoaddict]

I think you underestimate how many islands are in play in vintage VS legacy in an average tourney.

That being said I disagree that this should replace TNN, because they are not doing the same thing. Merfolks curve is already pretty well established, and TNN sitting at the top is where it belongs. You don't need another 1 drop because your properly built folk deck should already have one drops enough. Merfolk in a lot of ways plays like a sligh deck, and if you put to much at the bottom youll weaken its end game.

Also, and I cannot stress this enough, TNN protects merfolk from cards that this does not, and simply put that is its role. Here's a list of things TNN is better at that merfolk regularly has need of.

- Not getting bounced by Jace
- Not getting wiped out with everything else from Engineered Explosives
- Not being countered on 1 by CotV
- Not being bolted
- Not being stp'ed
- Blocking a tramogoyf
- Blocking and surviving a Blightsteel

[Coopes]

"The card replaces True-Name nemesis, simply because it is cheaper."

:/ I find it really hard to evaluate anything once this statement is on the field. I don't think this card was overlooked any imho..

[gkraigher]

- Not getting bounced by Jace
- Not getting wiped out with everything else from Engineered Explosives
- Not being countered on 1 by CotV
- Not being bolted
- Not being stp'ed
- Blocking a tramogoyf
- Blocking and surviving a Blightsteel

-you win on this one.
-the lords cost 2 mana, and your only other 1 drop is cursecatcher so explosives for 1 is bad
-like EE, CotV should be on 2, then 1.  
-eating up a bolt saves your lord from a bolt
-not being stp'ed saves your lord from a stp
-you might have instant in your yard, and maybe creature.  they have land.  so we are looking at a 1/2 - 3/4 goyf, that seems manageable.  
- if TNN blocks a blightsteel, then you are more than likely still dead.

[StanleyAugust]

Merfolks isn't a very good deck in the first case, and this card definitely doesn't improve the deck. Go ahead and play it, with time you'll learn that cards like these suck.

[JarofFortune]

-you might have instant in your yard, and maybe creature.  they have land.  so we are looking at a 1/2 - 3/4 goyf, that seems manageable.  

From my experience playing rug, there will more than likely be a sorcery in the rug player's yard of they are playing an optimal list. Therefore, if the rug player can keep the merfolk player from sticking too many lords early on, then Tarmogoyf will need to be answered, not to mention the possibility of ambushing their guys with a gush to turn off islandwalk.

Merfolks isn't a very good deck in the first case

What's your reasoning behind this statement?

[gkraigher]

not to mention the possibility of ambushing their guys with a gush to turn off islandwalk.

This is a great line of play I didn't know about.  So actually being unblockable is good in this situation.  

[JarofFortune]

not to mention the possibility of ambushing their guys with a gush to turn off islandwalk.

This is a great line of play I didn't know about.  So actually being unblockable is good in this situation.  

But if I kill their lords in such an ambush, then they are left with a 1/1. Even as a 2/2 it wouldn't be a problem unless my life total was in danger. Meanwhile, If I have a tarmogoyf or two that kill their lords in the situation, I can probably race them after that. I'm not a Merfolk Player, but I can't think of any problems the deck has that this will solve.

It's also worth noting that cursecatcher is very annoying, or even problematic, for most decks in the format. The same cannot be said of shorestalker nearly as often.

[Zherbus]

gkraigher feels strongly about this topic remaining open, so I'll grant it in hopes that it takes an upward swing.

[vaughnbros]

If rogues is a deck this is a card since he has some nice synergy with Earwig, Edric, and oona's blackguard.  I'm just not sure rogues is a deck...

[TheWhiteDragon]

Rogues can be something, but I don't see this as the guy.  I tinkered around with an earwig-centric deck, but invisible stalker, silhana ledgewalker, frogtosser baneret, and equips were the engine.  The unblockable is nice, but I'll pay 1 more to get shroud as well.  The type of merfolk actually does very little for this guy.  He's not a great fit in merfolk for all reasons already mentioned.  He is decent as a rogue, but I see better choices as exampled.

If you have 2 mana (mox), you can play either this or stalker just as fast.  If you have no accel, you can't prowl an earwig any faster anyway, so the tempo gain of the lower cc is lost anyway.  And if your opponent knows your plan and runs burn, well...yeah.  He's also sucky carrying equip vs any type of removal.

[orgcandman]

-like EE, CotV should be on 2, then 1.  

Just wanted to point out that if you stick a chalice @ 2, you can no longer stick a chalice @ 1 (normally).

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm with WhiteDragon.  Here's the thing.  In Vintage, we can typically generate 2 mana on turn 1.  So, there is a very marginal difference between Shorestalker and better cards, like Invisible Stalker.  In Rouges, the comparison is to Prickly Boggart and Nightshade Stinger, neither of which is worth playing.

If you are in Merfolk, you get even less justification for this card because it doesn't do anything for you other than getting in for damage.  If that's all you care about, remembering that difference between 2 mana and 1 man in Vintage is pretty slim, there's just no case to be made for Shorestalker over lords.  There really isnt.

Now, if you want to try to craft some kind of bonkers blue weenie deck using Sky Hussar and Skaab Runiator, then sure, this is another copy of Flying Men you can lose with.  But no argument in this thread so far supports the concept of using Shorestalker in any legitimate deck in Vintage.

[gkraigher]

Here is a shell for a rogue deck, instead of playing counters it goes for hand disruption.

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mind Twist
4 Hmyn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
3 Dismember

4 Faerie Macabre
4 Oona's Blackguard
4 Earwig Squad
4 Triton Shorestalker

2 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
4 Underground Seas
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
Basics

There are about 4-8 slots available in this deck too, so add in anything you think is missing. 

[zeus-online]

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[gkraigher]

Absolutely, Jace fits at the top of the curve.  So play 1 and play demonic tutor/vamp tutor as well.  You could go a 1 of utility route and play cards like chains of mephistopheles.  

I'm just kinda throwing it out there as a shell.  Even seemingly innocuous cards like faerie macabre have multiple purposes like being good vs blue angels, dredge, and welder.  It also allows you to potentially ambush a Goyf. 

This decks could easily run 4 delver, 4 gush, and 4 force of will if you wanted to go that route.

 It could also run cavern of souls.   

[TheWhiteDragon]

If you cut the 4 shorestalker and add 4 invisible stalker, you're much better off.

[zeus-online]

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[gkraigher]

it's not just it's synergy with earwig squad, it's also it's synergy with oona's blackguard. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

Realistically, how is for a 1/1 unblockable better than 1C for a flying critter? Is this really better than Silhana Ledgewalker or Surveilling Sprite? If you're on an Earwig Squad theme, doesn't that argue for Rootwater Thief to give you better odds of exiling all of the opponent's wincons before they can draw one?

[Protoaddict]

Playing bad cards to make other marginal cards better is not typically a great strategy unless you do something like win the game turn 2 like dredge.

1/1 for U unblockable is marginal at best and god awful all the rest of the time on its own, so your really banking on the earwig plan, which is also unplayable without support. Blackguard is sorta a lord but a fairly weak one with out support. Your whole deck pretty much falls apart to a single darkblast.

Tell me, why is earwig so good with this thing that it is worth playing an otherwise marginal card, while in the mean time there are decks that are literally just playing mana sources and broken cards?

[ben_berry]

These are meant to be paired with Bident of Thassa and Military Intelligence. In Standard. It's only possibly playable in Modern, modern.