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Author Topic: MTGO Daily Event Boycott  (Read 4360 times)
enderfall
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« on: August 19, 2014, 11:08:15 pm »

Those of you that have been following the Organized Play situation on MTGO have likely heard about the cancellation of Premier (Top 8) events, effective Aug 20. This leaves 2-man, 8-man queues and scheduled 4-Round Swiss Daily Events as the only ways to play sanctioned constructed formats on MTGO. You may also know/recall that with the release of Vintage Masters, WotC decided to push prize support away from DE's and into PE's for Vintage and Legacy. The theory was that we would prefer larger tournaments to smaller ones. I'm not here to rehash that argument, but what I am here to discuss is the gap in prize support that was created when WotC unilaterally decided to cancel PE's.

Currently, DE's pay out to players that get 4 or 3 wins in the 4-round event. 4 Wins gets you 6 VM packs (= $42 in MSRP) and 3 wins gets you 2 packs of VM ($14). Modern, Standard, Pauper, and Block DE's get paid out 11 and 6 packs of the latest set/block, which is currently M15. 11 packs at MSRP is $44, while 6 packs at MSRP is $24. We use MSRP and not the aftermarket value for the prizes since that is the only number that WotC recognizes, i.e. they don't concern themselves with the aftermarket prices of anything.

So, what we currently have is a HUGE discrepancy in the prizes for the two most expensive formats to play on MTGO. In the immediate aftermath of the announcement, dozens of people complained on Twitter to Worth Wolpert and Mike Turian about how they took prize support away from DE's to support a (slightly) elevated prize support for PE's and they needed to rectify the situation. In the week since the announcement, we have heard absolutely nothing from anyone at WotC. I sent Mike Turian (someone I have worked with before in setting up PRE prize support from WotC and someone I have also spoken to over the phone) a personal e-mail to him last Thursday; I have not received a reply. They are blatantly ignoring us. The reality is that people keep entering the events with crappy prize support, so why would they change?

Well, this is where we step in. We need to stop playing in the DE's effective immediately so as to demonstrate to them that we will no longer stand being treated like dirt. You can make an argument that we should be getting better prize support than Standard when the up front cost to play the format is so high, but all I'd really settle for right now is equal footing. I posted this on ClassicQuarter.com earlier today, but I wanted to report is here since I know there are several players on TMD that probably never visit CQ:

Quote
Well, today's MTGO blog post mentioned nothing about fixing the DE payouts for Vintage/Legacy. I've e-mailed Mike Turian directly to encourage him to act. Countless people have explained to them on Twitter that they are making a huge mistake, and they continue to ignore us. It's time we all took action!

While I understand that people want to play Vintage, the long-term health of this format depends on tournament payouts that at the absolute very least are equal to other formats. I'm not even advocating that they pay out more, which is certainly debatable, but we should at least get the same EV as everyone else.

Thus, I'm advocating that no one, and I mean NO ONE, play in a Vintage DE until they get a clue. We can't sit idly by and let them screw us over with this crappy payout if events keep firing. All that does is demonstrate to them that they don;t need to "fix" anything.
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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2014, 12:44:07 pm »

I applaud what you're trying to do but I don't think it will work, and that's simply because I don't think you'll be able to convince enough people that this is a battle worth fighting.

It seems as though most vintage players don't care about the huge discrepancy in payout. That's self evident, since the events continue to fire. I find the crappy payout annoying, but admittedly, I'd rather just play Vintage than boycott events for (in my opinion) a relatively insignificant  change to the prize structure.

I would like to see better events:

  • Better prizes
  • More convenient times
  • Premiere event tournament structure

.. but I honestly don't think there is any way to achieve these objectives without going down the PRE path. There is, and always has been, an impasse between the Vintage community and Wizards. The community wants what is best for the players, and Wizards wants what makes the most money. It's really difficult to come to a compromise on these issues.
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enderfall
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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2014, 01:27:41 pm »

I think we are already seeing the effects of the payout in DE participation. What was almost a guarantee that all three events would fire at the scheduled time with >16 people 7 days a week is drying up. To me, it's clear that the "newness" of Vintage is wearing off and that the honeymoon is over. DE's are starting to not fire, even on the weekends.

The Legacy folks don't seem to care, but I imagine it's because they are mostly grinders looking for QP. The fact that they would value QP over any other prize is a problem in and of itself, but universally, no one likes the payout. We experienced as similar phenomena with Classic. Once people thought that events wouldn;t fire, it was really difficult to get people to keep trying to get the events to fire. Vintage is headed straight down that same path. There are a bunch of people that either never played Vintage DE's because of the crappy payout, or have stopped playing because of the crappy payout.
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Coopes
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2014, 02:05:57 pm »

I won't be playing Vintage again until they fix the payouts. But i've already made that clear. Problem with most Vintage players is if you are able to afford a deck that costs 1-2k$ you most likely don't care as much about minor changes in prizes, and I'd argue Vintage players on average have a much higher disposable income than the average person. That doesn't make what WOTC is doing any more "right".

I should also note that at this point, it's just disrespectful and a matter of principle to fix the payouts to the proper amounts. They took prize payouts out of DE's to put into PE's. Now that PE's are gone, they need to put the prizes back into DE's. Until that happens, I won't be touching a daily event.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 02:30:51 pm by Coopes » Logged
emidln
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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2014, 07:23:17 pm »

While I sympathize with not wanting to be taken advantage of, the fact of the matter is that you already dumped several hundred dollars (at least) into virtual cardboard crack. The rocks you get for your money are now a little worse, but does that make you any less addicted?

I bought into mtgo vintage so I could actually play Vintage. The payout isn't really a priority for me.
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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2014, 07:28:34 pm »

Not sure if this is the boycott, overall lack of interest in online Vintage, or the cost of the event but the Championship Qualifier failed to fire after reaching 16/17 people. Seeing as maybe 2-3 people will get invites from a 17 player tournament and that the cost of the events prevents people from playing in multiple events to qualify it seems like the Championship is going to somewhat disappointing (or quite high EV if you manage to qualify). Maybe Wizards will do something after this...
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enderfall
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« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2014, 02:26:56 pm »

While I sympathize with not wanting to be taken advantage of, the fact of the matter is that you already dumped several hundred dollars (at least) into virtual cardboard crack. The rocks you get for your money are now a little worse, but does that make you any less addicted?

I bought into mtgo vintage so I could actually play Vintage. The payout isn't really a priority for me.

This kind of apathy will help WotC just continue to take, take, take. At what point will you finally say enough is enough? Now is the time to do it, unless you want to play for a few pieces of sand instead of a couple of rocks...

Besides, you CAN play Vintage on MTGO without playing in a DE. It's perfectly reasonable. Play in the TP; that cost's absolutely nothing. Alternatively, play in the 2 or 8-man queues. At least those have reasonable payout.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 02:35:25 pm by enderfall » Logged
Coopes
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2014, 09:38:45 pm »

While I sympathize with not wanting to be taken advantage of, the fact of the matter is that you already dumped several hundred dollars (at least) into virtual cardboard crack. The rocks you get for your money are now a little worse, but does that make you any less addicted?

I bought into mtgo vintage so I could actually play Vintage. The payout isn't really a priority for me.

This kind of apathy will help WotC just continue to take, take, take. At what point will you finally say enough is enough? Now is the time to do it, unless you want to play for a few pieces of sand instead of a couple of rocks...

Besides, you CAN play Vintage on MTGO without playing in a DE. It's perfectly reasonable. Play in the TP; that cost's absolutely nothing. Alternatively, play in the 2 or 8-man queues. At least those have reasonable payout.

Agreed. The above post was really off putting, of course it makes me less addicted when i'm watching myself get fucked first hand by wotc. You bought into Vintage to play ? Great, that's what I figured most people here did. As I have said, most Vintage players have more disposable income than others and/or are at a stage in their life where they aren't as worried about prize supports. You may not care about the prize support, but there are a good amount of people who do--and some of that has been evident in the recent daily/etc events that have not been firing.
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JACO
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2014, 01:13:54 am »

Does an unintentional boycott count? I haven't had any time or interest to play, because every time I do the software just lags and lags, and takes up so much damn memory (and I don't have a slow computer, or much open). If I could get through more than a round without having to restart the software it might be really fun to play.
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2014, 11:46:01 am »

As a side note, I've been trying to enter Qualifiers all day, and none have passed 4 players registered.
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diophan
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2014, 01:30:03 pm »

Besides, you CAN play Vintage on MTGO without playing in a DE. It's perfectly reasonable. Play in the TP; that cost's absolutely nothing. Alternatively, play in the 2 or 8-man queues. At least those have reasonable payout.

The EV from 8 mans and the DEs are actually the same, unless having a number of people not divisible by 16 messes up the calculation in a well-defined way:

Both cost 6 tix to enter.
After 4 rounds with 16 people in a DE:
1 4-0
4 3-1
Which is 6+2*4=14 packs

8 man:
First gets 3, 2nd 2, 3rd/4th 1*2 packs, for a total of 7 packs
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enderfall
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2014, 02:40:17 pm »

Besides, you CAN play Vintage on MTGO without playing in a DE. It's perfectly reasonable. Play in the TP; that cost's absolutely nothing. Alternatively, play in the 2 or 8-man queues. At least those have reasonable payout.

The EV from 8 mans and the DEs are actually the same, unless having a number of people not divisible by 16 messes up the calculation in a well-defined way:

Both cost 6 tix to enter.
After 4 rounds with 16 people in a DE:
1 4-0
4 3-1
Which is 6+2*4=14 packs

8 man:
First gets 3, 2nd 2, 3rd/4th 1*2 packs, for a total of 7 packs

When comparing them to Modern/Standard 8-man queues, Vintage/Legacy 8-mans actually have (slightly) higher EV. Modern/Standard pays out 12 Core/Block packs = $48 MSRP, while Vintage/Legacy pay out 7 packs VMA = $49 MSRP. That's what I mean by "decent payout".
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