Oath - thanks to mtgo I'm getting into Vintage, but I need some help

[Guilhao]

First list:

4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
5 Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
3 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk
3 Mana Drain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Oath of Druids
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Time Vault
1 Rebuild
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Griselbrand

SB:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Swan Song
2 Rebuild
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Thoughtseize
2 Nature's Claim
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Forest

So I decided to get into Vintage in mtgo because it's about 1/10 cheaper than irl and even if I did have a vintage deck, in my country it would be almost impossible to find a tournament. I tried Oath, Storm and Fastbond Gush and Oath felt better and easier to play (although there's more hate against Oath online right now).

I still have many doubts, specially sideboarding so I'd love some help in there. Also I do want to play Show and Tell but I'm waiting for the promo of this month because currently it's very expensive and me and some friend are getting at least one. So I'd like some help as well on what changes should I make in the deck (both with and without Show and Tell). I'm also lacking Misdirection but it's also very expensive right now.

I managed to 4-1 one of the vintage championship qualifiers with this so on 30th August I'll be taking Oath to try and win.

[The Atog Lord]

Hello, and welcome to The Mana Drain!

Congratulations on 4-1'ing a Qualifier.

Everything in your list seems perfectly reasonable. I would rather have Hurkyl's Recall than Rebuild, but then, the card is far too expensive on MODO. That's the same reason that I'm using the strictly worse Misty Rainforest over a Polluted Delta in my deck.

Which matchups are you trying to improve? Which have been difficult?

[Guilhao]

Thanks. I've had trouble against decks that play many Cages post SB or like the deck I lost to in the first round of the qualifier. It had 4 Dark Confidant, Null Rod and 4 Decays maindeck. But the best thing against those would be Show and Tell I guess.

What about sideboarding?

[diophan]

IMO rebuild is enough worse than Hurkyl's that I wouldn't play 3 of them. You could try an extra claim or steel sabotage.

[Thiim]

The deck you are describeing is BUG fish, and the best answer to their abrupt decay is misdirection, which is even better if they have null rod in play. I've seen many decks beginning too run Misd x2 in the main too answer this card. You also have thoughtseize to take it out, which i like. Ofc they're bad against MUD, where they are boarded out together with misstep & flusterstorm.

Also I like too run 2 abrupt decay in the 60, because it solves a lot of problems.

Also i wouldn't run library of alexandria, since this isn't a control deck, it's a combo deck, and you're trying too go off as fast as possible.(add a second island too make your MU better against wastelands.)

Too support that above, I don't use mana drain either, i have 2 flusterstorm and 2 spell pierce MD. And I also think that Tezzeret the Seeker is too heavy for the curve, sure it's bonkers sometimes, but wouldn't you just rather resolve an Oath?

As the others mention, hurkyl's recall is better than rebuild, are you scared of CotV on 2? because you have decay, claim & sabotage for that.

Also Memory's Journey is way better than gaea's blessing, since it can be pitched to FoW and misdirection.

When you can add a single show and tell, this will improve your games and win percentage and is a great tutor target when griselbrand is stuck in hand without brainstorm or jace tms.

What about a toxic deluge too the sideboard, is great too buy time, until you can get oath on the table and can take out threats.

[Guilhao]

Well Rebuild is very cheap and Hurkyl's is really expensive. But also, Rebuild is much better against Witchbane Orb, which MUD is playing.

Yeah Misdirection would be great but it's also very expensive.

I've seen all Oath's playing Library. This is a combo deck that can play a control game, that's why it plays Mana Drain.

Tezzeret has won me a game or 2 but yeah sometimes they have a Dark Confidant or even 1 token from Orchard and I have to give them the 2nd to play Tezzeret and it doesn't win me the game.

Gaea's Blessing shuffles the whole deck without playing mana and I've never seen a single Oath not playing it. With Griselbrand it's very important to have Gaea's Blessing. I've also yet to see a list without it.

I agree that a single Show and Tell will be pretty Toxic Deluge is also expensive and I haven't felt the need to have it. Not many heavy creature decks in MTGO.

A 2nd Decay will probably be good I agree.

[diophan]

There are definitely decks that don't run some of those cards:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=29&f=VI&meta=82

Clicking "compare decks" is useful since it lets you see how common various configurations are. Personally I think running blessing is a nuisance more frequently than it's helpful; milling the blessing when you want to Will is awful. I think you should just try some games without it vs. with and see if it helps or hurts you more frequently.

[Guilhao]

From those decks, some opted to play neither Gaea's or Journey (most of those are storm versions) and the only 2 who opted for Memory's Journey were somewhat different from my deck. One is very different with Rune-Scarred Demon. The Demon doesn't draw you 7 or 14 cards like Griselbrand, it simply tutors so in that version Journey looks better. The other one has 4 Griselbrand, 2 Show and Tell and a few other different cards.

From my experience, most of the time, I either want to hit Gaea's Blessing or don't really care if I hit it or not. So far, I had 1, maybe 2 situations that didn't want to hit Gaea's because I had Will in hand but the one I remember the best I won anyway.

[serracollector]

I would drop one mana drain and tezz for one more pierce and one more thoughtseize maindeck. this should help you with the null rod and cage problems i would think. also not sure wat to drop but i would also run a second abrupt decay maindeck. is rebuild better than just running another steel sabotage? i dont see many situations where bouncing or countering one key artifact is worse than tryin to bounce all at minimum three mana. good luck sir.

[TheKidsArentAlright]

At the end of last month I was jamming Oath pretty hard online, but due to work getting crazy and other personal commitments I haven't had enough time to really test or play at all in August.  As a result, I can't really speak to metagame specific calls, but I can offer some general impressions of what I was playing.

I feel that 1 Show and Tell is a necessary evil, but I don't like running the 2nd copy with only 2 Griselbrands.  Without him in hand it is at best a 3 mana Duress.

Gaea's Blessing is not needed.  I don't run it, and while there's been times where I've nearly decked myself with an Oath activation and been unable to draw 7, it has never cost me a game.  It would be nice to have, but with 9 slots dedicated to win conditions space is really tight already and there just isn't room.

I prefer Imperial Seal over Mystical for the ability to find Oath, Orchard, or the missing half of Vault/Key.  The only time the sorcery speed has really come back to bite me in the ass was when my opponent was able to get an active Jace and I didn't have a way to draw the top card immediately.  Overall though, the times Seal has been better outnumber the times I wished I had Mystical.

I'm not a fan of Brainstorm, Ponder, or Top in this deck, and I'm not very high on Jace either though I wouldn't cut him entirely.  With only 4 Misties and 3 tutors to shuffle, the chances of getting "Brainstorm locked" are just too high IMO.  Jace plus Orchard is a real non-bo in this deck as well without any way to protect him.  My most recent iteration cut Brainstorm, Ponder, Top and 1 Jace (down to 2) for 4 Preordains.  I like it in theory and initial testing was positive, but I didn't get a chance to decently run it through the gauntlet before real life shut down my Magic time.  I'm not saying I think it's the right call, just something to consider.

Duress can serve much of the same function as Misdirection if you are unable or unwilling to spent the $180 or so for 2 of them.  Thoughtseize, Divert and Mindbreak Trap can also deal with Decays if you want to experiment a bit.  Again, something to consider.

Also, one last suggestion that might help you get better feedback.  When you post a decklist, try to separate the cards by functionality.  As a reader, it's much easier mentally break down a deck when it's presented that way.  For reference and to show an example of the formatting I'm talking about, here's my latest Oath deck.

Preordain Oath
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Preordain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

4 Oath of Druids
2 Griselbrand
1 Show and Tell

1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
8 SoLoMox Crypt

Sideboard (Likely needs more shop hate - this was played when Tangle Wire was bugged)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Swan Song
1 Forest
2 Nature's Claim
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt

[zeus-online]

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[TheKidsArentAlright]

Ponder and Brainstorm rely on shuffling to get their full value; if you can't get rid of the dead cards you see then Scrying is a better effect.  With my deck containing only 7 such effects, slightly over half the number run by other Drain decks, I found myself either just pitching those cards to FoW or being unable to shuffle and drawing through the crap I put back too often.  Preordain is not the most powerful cantrip, certainly, but it does get around that issue.  It could well be wrong and that Brainstorm and Ponder may be better, but those are cards I was unhappy with and so I'm exploring other options for the time being.

[zeus-online]

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[dangerlinto]

Ponder and Brainstorm rely on shuffling to get their full value; if you can't get rid of the dead cards you see then Scrying is a better effect.  With my deck containing only 7 such effects, slightly over half the number run by other Drain decks, I found myself either just pitching those cards to FoW or being unable to shuffle and drawing through the crap I put back too often.  Preordain is not the most powerful cantrip, certainly, but it does get around that issue.  It could well be wrong and that Brainstorm and Ponder may be better, but those are cards I was unhappy with and so I'm exploring other options for the time being.

That is true, they do require a shuffle effect. But they are far more powerful. Particularly brainstorm in a deck like this.
Perhaps you should figure out a way to add more shuffle effects rather than cut these powerful cantrips. Cutting 1 underground sea for an additional fetch land would be a fine start i think.

I would also add that many vintage decks don't really have that many more ways to shuffle. Perhaps 1-3 more than you. And they don't have a problem playing with both of these great cards

If Oath could run 4 brainstorms, it would.

People who played Classic online when this was a possibility a keenly aware, Brainstorm in this deck is a freaking all-star.  IN addition to all reasons given above, a Brainstorm in response to a Duress/Thoughtseize on turn 1 (when you don't have the 2 mana in hand to play your oath) is a major saving grace.  Oath could keep a LOT more hands in Classic than it could in Vintage because of this. 

[zeus-online]

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[dangerlinto]

I don't believe quoting is an automatic gainsaying of whatever is in the quote (or the last person on the quote trail).  I quoted the relevant portions of the discussions relative to my own post.  I'm aware of your stance on brainstorm.

Basically I got lazy with quoting.  The post stands.

[TheKidsArentAlright]

If Oath could run 4 brainstorms, it would.

People who played Classic online when this was a possibility a keenly aware, Brainstorm in this deck is a freaking all-star.  IN addition to all reasons given above, a Brainstorm in response to a Duress/Thoughtseize on turn 1 (when you don't have the 2 mana in hand to play your oath) is a major saving grace.  Oath could keep a LOT more hands in Classic than it could in Vintage because of this. 

I did play Classic Oath for a bit.  I know what a workhorse it was in that deck.  It also played significantly more fetchlands since it couldn't run Power and Academy, making Brainstorm better.  Even the Lotus Petal versions typically played 6 or 7 IIRC.  I'm not debating its power in a deck that can fully utilize it.  I'm saying that it has been my experience that the current Oath shell does not.

I'm also well aware of the interaction between Duress and Brainstorm; it's just that I'm not terribly concerned about about it.  The printing of Flusterstorm, Mental Misstep, Spell Pierce, and to a lesser extent Spell Snare and Swan Song have pushed it almost completely out of all but Storm decks.  Interestingly enough, those cards have also nearly pushed Storm out of the metagame as well.  The Turn 1 Duress happens so infrequently that it isn't something I'm going to plan around when building a deck.

That is true, they do require a shuffle effect. But they are far more powerful. Particularly brainstorm in a deck like this.
Perhaps you should figure out a way to add more shuffle effects rather than cut these powerful cantrips. Cutting 1 underground sea for an additional fetch land would be a fine start i think.

I would also add that many vintage decks don't really have that many more ways to shuffle. Perhaps 1-3 more than you. And they don't have a problem playing with both of these great cards

It may be that adding more shuffle effects is the correct answer.  It's something I considered but put on the back burner initially.  Cutting the 3rd Sea is the easy and obvious change, but on its own probably isn't enough.  After that, anything you change out has a negative impact on the deck.  The Orchards, Misties, remaining 4 duals, basic Island, Lotus and on-color Moxen are all untouchable IMO, leaving only LoA, Academy, Crypt, Pearl and Ruby as possible cuts.  Of those I could see maybe Library and/or Crypt since the deck cannot easily get back to 7 cards in hand barring Griselbargain and runs few cards with in the casting cost, with Tinker notably absent.

If you want to compare Oath to typical Drain decks, I would say that they run, on average, 11 shuffle effects: 7 fetches plus DT, Vamp, Tinker, and 1 of either Imperial Seal, Merchant Scroll or Mystical.  They also run some form of incremental card advantage engine, be it Bob, Gush, or Night's Whipser, which Oath cannot.  So even if I did bump up to 7 fetches, which is not possible without making significant concessions in another area, Brainstorm and Ponder would still be worse in Oath than any other deck in the format due to seeing fewer cards pre-Grislebrand.

[zeus-online]

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[Guilhao]

Thanks for all the replies.

TheKidsArentAlright, yeah I know that way is easier but I made that post in a hurry so I did not have time to make the list look better. Also I undersand your point on the low shuffle effects but Brainstorm is very important to put Griselbrand back in the deck. Right now I also don't have the means to test something as radical as adding a bunch of Preordains instead of those cards. I do agree that Jace sometimes is pretty bad when you have to make at least 1 token to play it.

I already got 1 Show and Tell and I replaced Tezzeret with it. I think I can get a 2nd one and I was thinking of adding it as well as another Griselbrand to the SB. I would take out a Rebuild and something else.

As for Gaea's Blessing, it might not be necessary but I have liked it and so close to the tournament, I don't want to take it out. At least it can cycle and in those stalled games that no player has anything, it can also shuffle back some good cards as potential draws. I have had a game that I almost decked myself because I milled most of the deck without milling Gaea's and right after that I drew Gaea's. I ended up winning the game with 0 cards in the deck thanks to putting 3 cards on the top.

EDIT: I'd like to know what match ups I'd need the extra Show and Tell and Griselbrand as well as the match ups I'd want to take out Show and Tell.
As for Imperial Seal, when I built the deck I saw a few lists and none had it. I also played around with a Gush deck and a storm deck, both lists playing Imperial Seal and it usually felt not very good. I certainly was worse at playing those decks than Oath and I played way less but still I just didn't like Imperial Seal. Maybe it's just a card that is harder to play correctly.

[Guilhao]

I managed to top8 the championship despite the 4-2 record but in the end I lost the first round of top8. It's sad because the prizes only get good in the top4 so this feels like a 9th place but I'm not that sad because after losing the last swiss round, I didn't expect to top8.

[Chubby Rain]

Congrats on the top 8. I lost to you at some point in the tournament, but they were fun games. Hopefully, you keep on playing and we can build up the online format a bit more.

[Guilhao]

Thanks. What were you playing?

I watched my replays today and I noticed I could have done a few things differently, some I noticed right after doing them, others just on the replay. So I still have a lot to learn.

Yeah I'll keep playing because I'm enjoying a different kind of Magic. I got bored of Standard this past year and even the year before I didn't like it very much and I also don't like Modern so Vintage has been a very refreshing way of playing Magic. Even when I lose to the nut draw it doesn't feel as bad as in other formats.

[Samoht]

Thanks. What were you playing?

I watched my replays today and I noticed I could have done a few things differently, some I noticed right after doing them, others just on the replay. So I still have a lot to learn.

Yeah I'll keep playing because I'm enjoying a different kind of Magic. I got bored of Standard this past year and even the year before I didn't like it very much and I also don't like Modern so Vintage has been a very refreshing way of playing Magic. Even when I lose to the nut draw it doesn't feel as bad as in other formats.

He was playing Vintage Locket Rocket (Top Storm Combo).

[Guilhao]

Oh the deck with Helm of Awakening and a bunch of Wizards, including the wizard cycling guy? I threw away game2 by not countering vampiric tutor with Magus of the Future in play. He got Flusterstorm and I wasn't able to counter back that one.

[Samoht]

Oh the deck with Helm of Awakening and a bunch of Wizards, including the wizard cycling guy? I threw away game2 by not countering vampiric tutor with Magus of the Future in play. He got Flusterstorm and I wasn't able to counter back that one.

Haha yeah that deck. He threw away a lot of games by misreging, but still ended up in t4 because he's a master like that.

[Guilhao]

Wow! Great, I didn't know he had top8ed, let alone top4ed. Vintage is hard, it's so easy to make those "distraction mistakes" that you realize right away or soon after. I have played Magic for many years and I don't make those mistakes often in constructed, even in limited they are not common for me. But in Vintage, with interactions that are so different from the magic of today it's so easy to miss them.

[Samoht]

Wow! Great, I didn't know he had top8ed, let alone top4ed. Vintage is hard, it's so easy to make those "distraction mistakes" that you realize right away or soon after. I have played Magic for many years and I don't make those mistakes often in constructed, even in limited they are not common for me. But in Vintage, with interactions that are so different from the magic of today it's so easy to miss them.

I meant his deck selection. He didn't intend to play that deck at all. He misregistered his deck and had to play it.

[Guilhao]

Oh lol! That's insane!

[Guilhao]

With the new cards (Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time) now legal should I include them in the deck? Which one and how many?

[John Cox]

I've tried to get them in and I can't get value out of them. Theres just not enough going to the graveyard. The deck doesn't play as many fetches as others and we play a much more reactive counter suite.