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Author Topic: Big Changes coming to Block Structure  (Read 4171 times)
TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2014, 02:03:59 pm »

Added to my post, please see example.

Also, midrange is short for midrange aggro.  Midrange decks are still aggro and mostly critter-based, but sacrifice a bit of speed to survive games that drag out longer.  Elves, for example has a combo, but wins with elf beats more often than not.  I wouldn't call that a combo deck anymore than I'd call humanfish with a vault/key stuck in it a combo deck.

Burn is aggro, you are correct...I still don't see it as tier 1 despite one good showing though.
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2014, 02:55:25 pm »

Added to my post, please see example.

Also, midrange is short for midrange aggro.  Midrange decks are still aggro and mostly critter-based, but sacrifice a bit of speed to survive games that drag out longer.  Elves, for example has a combo, but wins with elf beats more often than not.  I wouldn't call that a combo deck anymore than I'd call humanfish with a vault/key stuck in it a combo deck.

Burn is aggro, you are correct...I still don't see it as tier 1 despite one good showing though.

Burn has been having a lot of success in PtQ's too, but that is beside the point. I never said that Burn was tier 1. I said that Burn is much more competitive than it used to be. I could definitely see it being tier 1 if it starts putting up more GP finishes and more people start playing the deck.

Ok, On the elf example, I hadn't seen the list, mainly because elves is not the most competitive of decks.

Midrange is not short for "Midrange Aggro". If that was true, then why is it that the only one drops Pod plays are mana dorks and maybe a Viscera seer, and the only One drops Jund and Rock play are Discard spells? ITs because their game plan isn't to kill the opponent quickly. Otherwise you would see them running more aggressive creatures instead of Durdly things like Pod, Bob, Liliana, or Reveillark. Midrange decks don't "Sacrifice a bit of speed". They sacrifice a lot of speed when compared to Aggro Decks because they want games to drag out.


Pyrodelver is also an excellent deck.  It's usually RUG around me with delver, pyro, tarm.  Right now, it only has leak/remand as "hard counters" for the early turns...some run snare, but then get busted vs 1 and 3cc stuff.  With 4 CS, the deck has then 12 counters...4 being superior in every way to the others.  Imagine the following line.  Fetch, crack for steam vent, delver, pass.  Opponent plays land, something for 1 (or nothing), pass.  Turn 2, delver swings for 3, you drop a land...you counter the next spell.  Turn 3 you swing for 3, cast sleight of hand to dig, land...leak the next spell.  Turn 5, play land, swing 3, cast tarm, remand the next spell...Turn 6, cast telling time (or whatever digger), swing 6, counterspell the remanded spell that gets recast.  Turn 7 win with leak/remand/CS backup.

Get busted by 1 and 3cc cards? The almighty counter spell can't answer 1 mana cards that are payed on turn one or even turn 2 on the draw. Snare is good because there are a lot of two-drops in Modern. Every single top tier deck runs multiple two mana cards that have a major impact on the Boardstate. 12 two mana counters. Ok, that's a rather awkward curve, when you also have Pyromancer or Goyf in the deck, and this is for a tempo deck. Most control decks don't run remand because it is not really a counter spell. Its a tempo play that just delays the opponent for another turn at its best.

As for the game you described, yes, this is Magic the Gathering. One deck will sometimes have a better draw than others. That scenario was also incredibly unlikely given that leak/CS/Remand make up only 1 in 5 of the deck's cards. Even for a deck that was cantripping like that, that chain of events was very unlikely, especially when the Delver deck happened to hit its land drops early on as well so it could play goyf with counter backup.

This scenario is also flawed because the Opponent somehow only has the capacity to play 1 spell a turn for the entire game, which plays perfectly into the Delver player's Counterspell heavy draw.

Finally, you once again forgot that Abrupt Decay is a card. That draw would fold immediately to a single decay, which sees wide play in the format and is one of the reasons Tempo almost fell off the map after RtR.

Forgetting all of this, Tempo decks also need help in Modern. They have been struggling ever since Return To Ravnica.

Quote

In the above scenario, let's say my best 1cc spell is seize.  Right now I can choose between your leak and remand and force that window to come faster.  Now I have to choose between the leak, remand, and CS in hand and my window may never come.


They could also just take the Delver instead of one of the three counters you were "lucky" enough to draw in a highly disproportionate amount. Eventually your stream of counter spells will run out and they will stick a threat.

Nut Draw scenarios(Not that that even would be a nut draw against any reasonable Midrange draw) are completely useless in evaluating the effects of a card in a format, because you could do that with any reasonable card. It only shows the futility of your position that you have to resort to Incredibly slanted Games played in Magical Christmas Land. I've heard people do the same thing about unbanning Mind Twist in Legacy: "But they can go Ritual Ritual Ritual Mind Twist on Turn 1!" when really the card is safe because scenarios such as that almost never happen.

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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2014, 06:41:34 pm »

Given that an extra 4x CS doesn't help reach critical mass and midrange can easily outplay counters and decay exists, why clamor for CS?  Why not campaign for FoW?  Force is a silly hard counter that's a 2 for 1 plus life!  4 extra counters wont change a thing, as you say.  Why not add 4 FoW?  Once 4 FoW prove innocuous, we could take a look at adding in drain too, right?  I mean, there is also cavern of souls, so a deck with 4 FoW, 4 drain in modern wouldn't be a problem, right?
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2014, 09:22:56 pm »

Given that an extra 4x CS doesn't help reach critical mass and midrange can easily outplay counters and decay exists, why clamor for CS?  Why not campaign for FoW?  Force is a silly hard counter that's a 2 for 1 plus life!  4 extra counters wont change a thing, as you say.  Why not add 4 FoW?  Once 4 FoW prove innocuous, we could take a look at adding in drain too, right?  I mean, there is also cavern of souls, so a deck with 4 FoW, 4 drain in modern wouldn't be a problem, right?

I don't want counterspell in Modern because of Tempo. Counterspell doesn't solve tempo's problems for the reasons discussed. I think that Counterspell should be in Modern to help Control. Printing Counterspell, Onslaught fetches, and a three mana conditional white or black wrath in the vein of anger of the Gods would go a long way in making Esper more viable, while Counterspell will simultaneously strengthen UWR ever so slightly.

On the subject of Fow,  I am indifferent. While I don't think it would warp the format, I don't think Modern is in desperate need of the card, so I won't waste my time arguing for it. Some people say that Modern needs FoW to keep the banlist smaller, but personally, rather than ban seething Song, I think Wizards should have just told everyone to suck it up and play Storm Hate.

Yeah, I'd be fine with Drain in modern instead of reprinting Counterspell. It wouldn't break Standard because Wizards is killing off control in that format anyways. People forget that this isn't the 90's anymore. Running crappy overcosted cards that are reliant on Drain can not a winning strategy in Modern.
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« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2014, 10:23:16 pm »

I think you're missing the point that adding 4 FoW, 4 MD, 4 CS just pushes modern closer to vintage or legacy, where it becomes control/storm/BUG or bust.  We already have vintage and legacy - no need for a 2.0.  Ramping into a big spell not a winning strategy?  Tron would like to have a word with you.  Turn 2 drain, turn 3 Karn/Wurmcoil seems pretty busted.

I'm okay with more wraths.  I'm actually disappointed toxic deluge isn't in modern.  They probably will reprint CS at some point, and I'll be fine with it - I'll just play blue.  Control decks tend to just need an ample amount of sweepers (damnation, wrath, verdict are enough) and ample counters...CS adds the last 4 control needs to have a robust counter suite.  A "keeper" type deck becomes totally playable with an extra 4 CS.  That's what I'd be playing and would imagine so would most else...except those of course who would change to cavern merfolk/cavern goblins to beat keeper.  That should be a fun 3 deck format.
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2014, 12:23:52 am »

I think you're missing the point that adding 4 FoW, 4 MD, 4 CS just pushes modern closer to vintage or legacy, where it becomes control/storm/BUG or bust.  We already have vintage and legacy - no need for a 2.0.  Ramping into a big spell not a winning strategy?  Tron would like to have a word with you.  Turn 2 drain, turn 3 Karn/Wurmcoil seems pretty busted.

I never said to add those three cards together. I don't want Modern to be Vintage and Legacy. The problem with Tron is that Blue tron doesn't play enough Blue sources to reliably cast drain on turn 2, considering that the deck is built around assembling the Tron Lands.

 A "keeper" type deck becomes totally playable with an extra 4 CS.  That's what I'd be playing and would imagine so would most else...except those of course who would change to cavern merfolk/cavern goblins to beat keeper.  That should be a fun 3 deck format.
You have not proven to me once that Control would get too good with Counterspell. You haven't even tried making a deck list for this Keeper deck.  You also ignore the fact that I never said cavern decks would be the answer. I said that Merfolk specifically could adapt by running Caverns if Counterspell warped the format. I also gave examples of how the other two most popular aggro decks in the format would barely be affected by Counterspell. What more do you want? Resorting to hyperbole and grandiose claims of a three deck format resulting from just Counterspell is ridiculous. In your example, you once again forgot Midrange. Jund, Junk, and BG would still be favored against Control. Counterspell is not a two mana Cruel Ultimatum that swings games around.


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« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 02:43:01 pm by JarofFortune » Logged

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Twiedel
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« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2014, 03:07:34 am »

Interesting topic ... but it should be changed to "Should Counterspell be reprinted". I personally still would love to hear more opinions on the block structure, but it seems I'm alone...
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2014, 04:25:58 pm »

Interesting topic ... but it should be changed to "Should Counterspell be reprinted". I personally still would love to hear more opinions on the block structure, but it seems I'm alone...

I have yet to meet anyone who dislikes the changes. It seems like a very good idea.
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The Auriok have fought the metal hordes for so long now that knowing how to cripple them has become an instinct. -Metal Fatigue
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