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Author Topic: Clean up step and EoT effects/spells  (Read 6580 times)
TheWhiteDragon
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« on: September 06, 2014, 01:26:24 pm »

My opponent has a Steppe Lynx that became a 4/5 due to a cracked fetchland.  He then ends his turn.  Can I lightning bolt his lynx as a 0/1 and kill it after his clean-up step removes the +4/+4, or must I wait until my upkeep?

From the Comprehensive Rules (Dark Ascension)
514. Cleanup Step
514.1. First, if the active player's hand contains more cards than his or her maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to reduce his or her hand size to that number. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
514.3. Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception:
514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger "at the beginning of the next cleanup step"). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another cleanup step begins.
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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2014, 02:04:09 pm »

No, you will never have priority (no one will) at the point where the Lynx is an 0/1.
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Clariax
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2014, 01:35:11 pm »

No, you will never have priority (no one will) at the point where the Lynx is an 0/1.

"Never" isn't exactly accurate here.  Under normal circumstances you will not get priority during the cleanup step after the +4/+4 wears off.  There are some circumstances where you will, however.  Basically you need something to trigger during the cleanup step to get priority here.  For example.  If there is a second Steppe Lynx with +4/+4 from landfall, but that one also has a -1/-1 counter on it, and there is a Deathgreeter on the battlefield.  Then during the cleanup step after the +4/+4 wears off, SBA get checked and the 2nd Steppe Lynx is a -1/0 so it dies, and this causes the Deathgreeter to trigger.  You'll then get priority with the trigger on the stack and after it resolves during the cleanup step after the 1st Lynx is a 0/1 (and can be killed with a Lightning Bolt)
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2014, 04:14:37 pm »

No, you will never have priority (no one will) at the point where the Lynx is an 0/1.

"Never" isn't exactly accurate here.  Under normal circumstances you will not get priority during the cleanup step after the +4/+4 wears off.  There are some circumstances where you will, however.  Basically you need something to trigger during the cleanup step to get priority here.  For example.  If there is a second Steppe Lynx with +4/+4 from landfall, but that one also has a -1/-1 counter on it, and there is a Deathgreeter on the battlefield.  Then during the cleanup step after the +4/+4 wears off, SBA get checked and the 2nd Steppe Lynx is a -1/0 so it dies, and this causes the Deathgreeter to trigger.  You'll then get priority with the trigger on the stack and after it resolves during the cleanup step after the 1st Lynx is a 0/1 (and can be killed with a Lightning Bolt)

The trigger isn't necessary, any state-based actions occuring in the cleanup step would give priority to the players.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2014, 07:41:49 pm »

I think state based actions are just checked for, whether anything is triggering, or happening in general, and then the active player receives priority regardless of any trigger that may or may not have occurred. In this circumstance I am not sure if something like this counts as a triggered ability, or a state based effect, but the end result if I am correct is the Lynx shrinking, and the active player gets priority. While still in the End Step both players will have had a chance to cast spell, and then Cleanup Step happens. The Lynx does not maintain the size until the Cleanup Step. Basically the End Step happens, then Lynx shrinks, and then priority is given in the End Step. The Lynx can be bolted here. Then the Clean Up step happens.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 07:44:22 pm by jamestosetti » Logged
Chubby Rain
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2014, 09:03:12 pm »

I think state based actions are just checked for, whether anything is triggering, or happening in general, and then the active player receives priority regardless of any trigger that may or may not have occurred. In this circumstance I am not sure if something like this counts as a triggered ability, or a state based effect, but the end result if I am correct is the Lynx shrinking, and the active player gets priority. While still in the End Step both players will have had a chance to cast spell, and then Cleanup Step happens. The Lynx does not maintain the size until the Cleanup Step. Basically the End Step happens, then Lynx shrinks, and then priority is given in the End Step. The Lynx can be bolted here. Then the Clean Up step happens.

No, you will never have priority (no one will) at the point where the Lynx is an 0/1.

"Never" isn't exactly accurate here.  Under normal circumstances you will not get priority during the cleanup step after the +4/+4 wears off.  There are some circumstances where you will, however.  Basically you need something to trigger during the cleanup step to get priority here.  For example.  If there is a second Steppe Lynx with +4/+4 from landfall, but that one also has a -1/-1 counter on it, and there is a Deathgreeter on the battlefield.  Then during the cleanup step after the +4/+4 wears off, SBA get checked and the 2nd Steppe Lynx is a -1/0 so it dies, and this causes the Deathgreeter to trigger.  You'll then get priority with the trigger on the stack and after it resolves during the cleanup step after the 1st Lynx is a 0/1 (and can be killed with a Lightning Bolt)

The trigger isn't necessary, any state-based actions occuring in the cleanup step would give priority to the players.

This is incorrect. Relevant text is below:

704. State-Based Actions
...
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2014, 10:09:28 pm »

I think state based actions are just checked for, whether anything is triggering, or happening in general, and then the active player receives priority regardless of any trigger that may or may not have occurred. In this circumstance I am not sure if something like this counts as a triggered ability, or a state based effect, but the end result if I am correct is the Lynx shrinking, and the active player gets priority. While still in the End Step both players will have had a chance to cast spell, and then Cleanup Step happens. The Lynx does not maintain the size until the Cleanup Step. Basically the End Step happens, then Lynx shrinks, and then priority is given in the End Step. The Lynx can be bolted here. Then the Clean Up step happens.

No, you will never have priority (no one will) at the point where the Lynx is an 0/1.

"Never" isn't exactly accurate here.  Under normal circumstances you will not get priority during the cleanup step after the +4/+4 wears off.  There are some circumstances where you will, however.  Basically you need something to trigger during the cleanup step to get priority here.  For example.  If there is a second Steppe Lynx with +4/+4 from landfall, but that one also has a -1/-1 counter on it, and there is a Deathgreeter on the battlefield.  Then during the cleanup step after the +4/+4 wears off, SBA get checked and the 2nd Steppe Lynx is a -1/0 so it dies, and this causes the Deathgreeter to trigger.  You'll then get priority with the trigger on the stack and after it resolves during the cleanup step after the 1st Lynx is a 0/1 (and can be killed with a Lightning Bolt)

The trigger isn't necessary, any state-based actions occuring in the cleanup step would give priority to the players.

This is incorrect. Relevant text is below:

704. State-Based Actions
...
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.


How is it incorrect? Varal simply reminds what rule 514.3a states - that SBAs will also require players to exchange priority before a new cleanup step. Emphasis mine; your quotation seems to affirm this as it references 514 and only says if NO state-based actions occur AND no triggered abilities trigger, no player is given priority during cleanup.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2014, 10:57:30 pm »

Perhaps I got quote happy (I was originally replying to jamestosetti and added in Varal's quote without evidently reading and processing it adequately). I have never seen anyone use a State-Based effect to gain priority in a game of Magic or Magic Online. It would be great if Clarix could clarify and provide an example.
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2014, 11:10:58 pm »

Perhaps I got quote happy (I was originally replying to jamestosetti and added in Varal's quote without evidently reading and processing it adequately). I have never seen anyone use a State-Based effect to gain priority in a game of Magic or Magic Online. It would be great if Clarix could clarify and provide an example.

State-based actions happen just before someone would get priority except at the last point in the cleanup step. A "common" example would be a an equipped permanent that ceases to be a creature or like in Clariax example a 0 thoughness creatures that had a thoughness boost until end of turn.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2014, 01:36:11 am »

What I was talking about happens in tournaments in front of judges with the judges approval all the time and every time. I'm talking about the beginning of the End Step, not the Cleanup Step.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 01:44:46 am »

I'm still a bit confused by the discussion.  Is anyone on here a judge that can give me a definitive ruling?  Can I bolt a Lynx after it shrinks to kill it at EoT or must I wait until my turn??
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2014, 02:12:38 am »

You may want to word it precisely such as, "Do I receive priority in the End Step"?
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boggyb
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2014, 07:30:43 am »

I'm still a bit confused by the discussion.  Is anyone on here a judge that can give me a definitive ruling?  Can I bolt a Lynx after it shrinks to kill it at EoT or must I wait until my turn??

You have to wait until your turn.

If you bolt it on his turn, the Lynx will be a 4/5 with 3 damage marked on it. During the cleanup step, it will have the 3 damage removed from it and return to being a 0/1 , and will survive.

The rest of this discussion mostly concerns very rare phenomena observed during the clean-up step. It almost always happens that two "until end of turn"-like effects (like damage being marked on a creature, and a +2/+2 bonus being applied to it) will cancel each other out during the clean-up step.
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2014, 08:41:36 am »

I'm still a bit confused by the discussion.  Is anyone on here a judge that can give me a definitive ruling?  Can I bolt a Lynx after it shrinks to kill it at EoT or must I wait until my turn??

Clariax is a Judge.  The definitive ruling is as I posted and he clarified: in the example of the first post, no, you can not because you will not have priority then (no one will).

The rest is clarification and "nit-pick" of my use of the word never.  I only meant it as you would never have priority in that particular clean-up step, not as you could never have priority in a clean-up step.  In retrospect, I should have chose my words more clearly, however, what I told you and what Clariax confirmed is correct: you can't Bolt the Lynx as a 0/1 in that example, because nothing will exist to give you priority in that clean-up step.
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2014, 03:49:17 pm »

Clariax is a Level 2 Judge. He knows what he is talking about.
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2014, 11:08:12 am »

What I was talking about happens in tournaments in front of judges with the judges approval all the time and every time. I'm talking about the beginning of the End Step, not the Cleanup Step.

If I read your post correctly, you've indicated that people are damages creatures with toughness-boosting effects that last "until end of turn" during the beginning of the end step and killing them on the basis that the toughness-boosting effect has ended. If that's what you're arguing, that's incorrect -- damage comes off creatures during Cleanup, at the same time as "until end of turn" effects end. Creatures that die as a result of Lightning Bolt at end of turn do so because they have been dealt lethal damage over the course of the turn.

If this were not so, Magic never would have had to endure the Substance mechanic.
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Clariax
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2014, 03:55:29 pm »

It seems a bit of closure is necessary for this post:


"Until end of turn" effects ending and damage being removed both happen during the cleanup step.  This is after the end step.  Players do not normally get priority during the cleanup step.  If something happens which allows players to get priority during the cleanup step (either an ability triggers or a state-based action happens), then players will get priority during the cleanup step AFTER the "until end of turn" effects end and damage has been removed.  And then after this cleanup step is finished there will be another cleanup step.

To reiterate a couple examples of things that can allow players to get priority (this is not an exhaustive list, of course):  A creature is left with 0 toughness after an "until end of turn" boost wears off, or something like a mishra's factory that became a creature has an equipment on it that falls off when it ceases to be a creature.

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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2014, 04:56:48 pm »

It seems a bit of closure is necessary for this post:


"Until end of turn" effects ending and damage being removed both happen during the cleanup step.  This is after the end step.  Players do not normally get priority during the cleanup step.  If something happens which allows players to get priority during the cleanup step (either an ability triggers or a state-based action happens), then players will get priority during the cleanup step AFTER the "until end of turn" effects end and damage has been removed.  And then after this cleanup step is finished there will be another cleanup step.

To reiterate a couple examples of things that can allow players to get priority (this is not an exhaustive list, of course):  A creature is left with 0 toughness after an "until end of turn" boost wears off, or something like a mishra's factory that became a creature has an equipment on it that falls off when it ceases to be a creature.



Are you saying that, under those very rare circumstances when someone does get priority during cleanup, you COULD bolt a creature that had +3/+3 applied earlier in the same turn?
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boggyb
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2014, 05:11:38 pm »

Yes, he already said that.
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