Dig through Time

[gkraigher]

has tombstalker seen vintage play?  No.  But it does see play in Legacy, and it is used primarily in black delver variants to get the edge over delver decks that don't run tombstalker.  So if the metagame continues to shift to more creature based decks in vintage, Tombstalker seems reasonable.  

Dig through Time also seems reasonable.  I'm not sure if it's good, but it certainly is powerful if you can cast it.  

[evouga]

I'm pessimistic about these cards for that exact reason -- they are useless in the early game, or even in the late game in the case of collateral damage from graveyard hosers like DRS. I think Grand Inquisitor hit the nail on the head -- Vintage has no shortage of card draw and tutor effects, and it's difficult for a conditional draw spell that gets hosed by graveyard hate to compete.

One case where Delve on a spell would be interesting is on spells that are useful against Shops specifically; for instance 4R Delve, destroy all artifacts.

[evouga]

has tombstalker seen vintage play?  No.  

Not recently, but it used to regularly T8 in Suicide Black lists.

[fsecco]

This delve cards interact well with Dack Fayden as well. That could count for something...

[Oath of Happy]

Jesus, another bomb for big blue. I think everyone is grossly undervaluing these cards. I'm not sure which one is better but they are both way better than cards where you have to pay a lot of mana like Gifts, FOF, and Scrying. The effect is not even close to Impulse. If Impulse drew you 2 out if the 4 it would have been restricted way long ago. After life points, cards in the graveyard are by far the most expendable resources. I think everyone is underestimating how fast graveyards fill up. Casting this EOT for UU and then main phasing Cruise for U is not even far fetched.

That's the thing.  These are potentially late-game mega bombs the same way that Ancestral Recall and Demonic Tutor are, but they're constructed in a way that makes them unable to function in the early game.  We're all wrestling with whether that makes them playable or not.

I'm pretty sure you can easily pull one of these off turn 4 with drain mana open, something that Gifts and Jace do not allow you to do.

[Oath of Happy]

has tombstalker seen vintage play?  No.  But it does see play in Legacy, and it is used primarily in black delver variants to get the edge over delver decks that don't run tombstalker.  So if the metagame continues to shift to more creature based decks in vintage, Tombstalker seems reasonable.  

Dig through Time also seems reasonable.  I'm not sure if it's good, but it certainly is powerful if you can cast it.  

5/5's don't matter in vintage. Ancestral Recall>>>Tarmogoyf. Sorcery speed BB is also much worse than Sorcery speed U or Instant speed UU.

[MTGFan]

You know, the more I think about this -- this card has the potential to really impact Vintage.

Digging 7 deep is much more powerful in Vintage than any other format. And past turn 2, the graveyard fills up quickly and in turns 3+, this will reasonably cost anywhere from UU to 2UU 98% of the time.

And this is *instant speed*. Imagine casting this on their EOT. It's probably better than Mystical Tutor and Fact or Fiction in many situations.

[MaximumCDawg]

It's probably better than Mystical Tutor and Fact or Fiction in many situations.

I think this is absolutely the correct question to ask.  Is this card actually better than a tutor effect? 

Fact or Fiction, as a semi-tutor, never gets cheaper than U3.  So it's easy to construct a late-game situation where Dig is superior because it only costs UU and even potentially avoids shop lock pieces.  That's trivial to explain away.

But I still don't see any compelling reason why Dig -- on it's best day, when the yard is full of chaff -- is really better than tutors.  The only edge it has over Demonic is that it is instant speed.  The only edge it has over Vampiric and Mystical is that you get the card right away, but since you can do this right before you draw anyway, that's just paying U to draw a card on top of the tutor.  I think you have a harder time justifying running Dig over these cards that you're giving credit for.

Assuming you can't really explain why you would cut tutors for Dig, the next question is whether you run both.  Is there a deck out there that would really want that kind of effect badly enough to add a fourth or fifth conditional tutor like that?

[Oath of Happy]

It's probably better than Mystical Tutor and Fact or Fiction in many situations.

I think this is absolutely the correct question to ask.  Is this card actually better than a tutor effect? 

Fact or Fiction, as a semi-tutor, never gets cheaper than U3.  So it's easy to construct a late-game situation where Dig is superior because it only costs UU and even potentially avoids shop lock pieces.  That's trivial to explain away.

But I still don't see any compelling reason why Dig -- on it's best day, when the yard is full of chaff -- is really better than tutors.  The only edge it has over Demonic is that it is instant speed.  The only edge it has over Vampiric and Mystical is that you get the card right away, but since you can do this right before you draw anyway, that's just paying U to draw a card on top of the tutor.  I think you have a harder time justifying running Dig over these cards that you're giving credit for.

Assuming you can't really explain why you would cut tutors for Dig, the next question is whether you run both.  Is there a deck out there that would really want that kind of effect badly enough to add a fourth or fifth conditional tutor like that?

Oh my god, the card is not just dig. How hard is it to understand that it gets you not one, but 2 cards?? The card advantage combined with the dig effect is what makes this effect so powerful. Mystical Tutor us card disadvantage, and FOF/Gifts cost 4 mana. Have you even had to counter something to not lose the game? If you FOF, Gifts, or Mystical into a drain, you either don't get it in hand it you don't have the mana to cast it. This and Treasure Cruise are the first Vintage cards to actually get my excited that have been in the past 6 years. The arguments people are making against these cards are just plain stupid. In fact, I just remembered why I haven't even bothered to visit this site in half a decade. I'm done. You guys have your heads up your ass.

[MaximumCDawg]

Well, hello to you too, good sir.  Nice to meet you.

Anyway, the proof is in the pudding.  So, if you have faith in these cards, brew with it and prove everyone wrong.  It's not like anyone here will argue with actual results.  Heck, with Vintage being online, the data should flow like water and we'll know in a few months whether these cards work or not.

That being said, yes, this card draws you the best two of your top four.  It's a tutor with card advantage.  Sure.  And you bring up one situation in which you WOULD rather have this than Demonic: you need to get both a win condition and a counterspell to back it up.  That's fair.  I'm not sure that that alone is enough to warrant replacing your tutor with this, since you can't use it early game, but it's an answer to the question.

[fsecco]

I find it hard to compare this to tutors, since it's quite different. Mystical cam always fetch you a Recall. This is not a tutor.

But it's not also an Impulse, since it nets you actual card advantage. It's really closer to FoF. But even then, it's a very different effect. I would say that if you cast this for 2UU (which should be easy) this is better than Fact. But I wouldn't even compare it that much, since this combined with FoF is even better.

I feel that decks like UW Bomberman could really benefit from this.

[Oath of Happy]

Well, hello to you too, good sir.  Nice to meet you.

Anyway, the proof is in the pudding.  So, if you have faith in these cards, brew with it and prove everyone wrong.  It's not like anyone here will argue with actual results.  Heck, with Vintage being online, the data should flow like water and we'll know in a few months whether these cards work or not.

That being said, yes, this card draws you the best two of your top four.  It's a tutor with card advantage.  Sure.  And you bring up one situation in which you WOULD rather have this than Demonic: you need to get both a win condition and a counterspell to back it up.  That's fair.  I'm not sure that that alone is enough to warrant replacing your tutor with this, since you can't use it early game, but it's an answer to the question.

The card digs 7, not 4. And gives you 2 cards. And it's an instant, and you can often times play it for UU. It's not even comparable to demonic or mystical except that they are both MTG cards. But if you really need to hear more arguments on why this card might be good, first if all the 2 cards I mentioned are both restricted, secondly, if you've played as much Vintage as I have, you know that a great way to lose is to get the spell you Mystical'd or Vamp's for countered. Any time you get 2 for 1'd early on in a control mirror you set yourself way far behind.

I'm still trying to figure out which card is better between this and Treasure Cruise. Probably Cruise but I think a 2/1 split might be the best fit. These cards should be restricted but obviously won't be because there is not enough competitive Vintage being played to yield size able results that would prove they're too good.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

It's probably better than Mystical Tutor and Fact or Fiction in many situations.

I think this is absolutely the correct question to ask.  Is this card actually better than a tutor effect? 

But I still don't see any compelling reason why Dig -- on it's best day, when the yard is full of chaff -- is really better than tutors.  The only edge it has over Demonic is that it is instant speed.  The only edge it has over Vampiric and Mystical is that you get the card right away, but since you can do this right before you draw anyway, that's just paying U to draw a card on top of the tutor.  I think you have a harder time justifying running Dig over these cards that you're giving credit for.

Assuming you can't really explain why you would cut tutors for Dig, the next question is whether you run both.  Is there a deck out there that would really want that kind of effect badly enough to add a fourth or fifth conditional tutor like that?

I think this evaluation of yours is way off the mark.
This is not a 1 for 1 tutor, and not a card disadvantage tutor. It is card advantage, combined with search. It finds you the best 2 out of 7 cards. It does not compete with tutors in a deck at all. You run tutors like in every other big blue deck. tutor for this card eot for example, protect it with counter magic when it only costs 2 or 3 mana, for example. Or you just cast it EOT as a must counter or in response to a threat. just because it digs deep doesn't mean that's why you play it. This card is insane card selection combined with card advantage right there!

The downsides are still there, but it seems you are underestimating the effect it provides. I assure you, if this card was just 1UU, it would be restricted. It's true that it competes with bomb slots, such as gifts, jace, fact or fiction, timetwister, thirst for knowledge. not gush though. That card is an engine this is a bomb.  

Also, this card is almost certainly better than treasure cruise: they cost the same unless in god-mode, cruise draws 3, but at random, one out of 3 cards is often a blank in a specific situation, this card is an instant. We all know we like instants.
(UU Treasure cruise would be better than ancestral recall i believe)

[MaximumCDawg]

I actually agree with you that Cruise is more likely to see play.  The way I see it, there's nothing you can compare to a fully-charged Cruise except Ancestral Recall, and that seems like a FAR better indication that it's playable than the ambiguous comparisons we can make to Dig.

(UU Treasure cruise would be better than ancestral recall i believe)

This... needs proof, I think.

[Protoaddict]

This card has utility that other cards simpily do not. It is that straight forward.

• Mystical, Vampric, and demonic tutors cannot get you 2 cards. There will be situations where you need to get Vault and a counter, or even 2 force of wills. This card can do that.
• Fact or fiction and gifts your opponent can interact with, prevent you from getting what you need.
• Timetwister, wheel of fortune, Windfall give your opponents cards. Not comparable.
• Thirst for Knowledge is probably the most comparable, but requires a heavy artifact commitment. It is also restricted.

I mean let's just roll back here a second and realize that even the naysayers of this card are basically only comparing it to cards from the restricted list. That is the potential power level of this card. I do not think this will need to be restricted or anything, i think the steep delve requirement will prevent people from wanting to run a bunch of copies, but so help me this is a powerful effect and if you think it does not at least have potential I think it means your not willing to think outside the box.

[MaximumCDawg]

I mean let's just roll back here a second and realize that even the naysayers of this card are basically only comparing it to cards from the restricted list.

I'm not sure I'm a nay-sayer as much as I am mildly skeptical, but I think you misinterpret the comparison.  By and large the only cards we use in Vintage for drawing and tutoring cards are restricted or named Gush or Impulse.  So any card that tutors or draws is going to be compared to them; the price of admission in Vintage is being better than these existing options in some reasonable circumstance.

[Oath of Happy]

I mean let's just roll back here a second and realize that even the naysayers of this card are basically only comparing it to cards from the restricted list.

I'm not sure I'm a nay-sayer as much as I am mildly skeptical, but I think you misinterpret the comparison.  By and large the only cards we use in Vintage for drawing and tutoring cards are restricted or named Gush or Impulse.  So any card that tutors or draws is going to be compared to them; the price of admission in Vintage is being better than these existing options in some reasonable circumstance.

First off, where do you play that you see competitive decks running Impulse? Secondly, please stop comparing this card to impulse, they are not even close to being similar. Just because they both dig dies not make them similar cards. This gets you 2 cards for the price if one.

Imagine if these cards existed:

U instant - draw a card. Unplayable
U instant - draw 2 cards. Would be restricted.

[JarofFortune]

Wow, so I originally thought treasure cruise was a nice swan song-style card and would be the only vintage playable new are in the set. Then I tested two copies of Dig through Time in Doomsday. It is absolutely insane. I have no idea how Wizards would print something so close to the  power level to demonic tutor, but they did it, and I'm overjoyed. This card is excellent, and the delve doesn't usually interfere with YAwgmoth's Will too much. This helps a lot with Doomsday's consistency problems, making its only real problem the Workshop matchup. I'm sure it can also be busted in other combo shells, so I'm going to test those too. I was very worried about Khans being another Theros, but with the limited format looking pretty fun, and two cross format Blue staples that draw cards, I'm very happy with how the set turned out.

[vaughnbros]

Cherry picking the best 2 cards of your top 7 is an incredible effect.  If you can delve its cost down to 4 it's on the power level of fact or fiction and gifts, the fact that this can cost as little as 2 mana is just insane.  However due to the constraints of the delve mechanic the card basically starts on the restricted list.  The graveyard is such a huge resource in vintage for things like deathrite shaman, goblin welder, yawgmoth's will, ancient grudge, and more that exiling 4 to 6 cards is not particarly easy, and expecting to exile that many cards multiple times a game is a rather unrealistic viewpoint.  I don't see this having any big impact on the format; but it should end up in a 75 here and there.

[Chill79]

Imagine if these cards existed:

U instant - draw a card. Unplayable
U instant - draw 2 cards. Would be restricted.

would like to have word with you

[MaximumCDawg]

Wrong thread, Brian - the one talking about an Ancestral Recall riff that requires a massive graveyard is over there.

Anyway, I think the design philosophy is the same here.  Cheap powerful effects are fine, just don't end the game before turn 4.  Given that Vintage is feeling the force of that movement in the form of longer games, less one-turn busted game endings, and more aggro, these kind of effect might just get there.  Did you watch the Vintage Special Series?  The commentators in Martell's last game were lamenting exactly this change - that Vintage is going from a format full of game ending haymakers into a more nuanced and midrangey type of game because the simple one-card win conditions are so easily hated out.

Maybe Doubleimpulse and SortofAncestral have a home. 

[fsecco]

Just an aside: this isn't Double Impulse, but just a reasonably costed Ancestral Memories - which didn't get played because it was a 2UUU sorcery.

[Chubby Rain]

Cherry picking the best 2 cards of your top 7 is an incredible effect.  If you can delve its cost down to 4 it's on the power level of fact or fiction and gifts, the fact that this can cost as little as 2 mana is just insane.  However due to the constraints of the delve mechanic the card basically starts on the restricted list.  The graveyard is such a huge resource in vintage for things like deathrite shaman, goblin welder, yawgmoth's will, ancient grudge, and more that exiling 4 to 6 cards is not particarly easy, and expecting to exile that many cards multiple times a game is a rather unrealistic viewpoint.  I don't see this having any big impact on the format; but it should end up in a 75 here and there.

I think this card has a role in the durdlely blue control decks I like to play. 1) The game typically goes long which gives the graveyard a chance to fill up. 2) The deck does not typically use the graveyard (maybe 2-3 snapcaster mages but often I run 0) and there is no lack of synergy with other graveyard-based spells.

Also, I think that the card works well with Fact or Fiction rather than replacing it altogether and would probably start with 3 FoFs and 2 Digs in a Blue Angel shell, maybe with spirit of the labyrinth. This mitigates the diminishing returns of multiple digs and derives value from the cards placed in the graveyard by FoF.

[Chubby Rain]

Just an aside: this isn't Double Impulse, but just a reasonably costed Ancestral Memories - which didn't get played because it was a 2UUU sorcery.

And Ancestral Recall is just an absurdly costed Concentrate - which doesn't see play because it's a 2UU sorcery.

I really question the merit of comparing cards to other cards without considering the types of shells in which they will be played...

[vaughnbros]

I think this card has a role in the durdlely blue control decks I like to play. 1) The game typically goes long which gives the graveyard a chance to fill up. 2) The deck does not typically use the graveyard (maybe 2-3 snapcaster mages but often I run 0) and there is no lack of synergy with other graveyard-based spells.

Also, I think that the card works well with Fact or Fiction rather than replacing it altogether and would probably start with 3 FoFs and 2 Digs in a Blue Angel shell, maybe with spirit of the labyrinth. This mitigates the diminishing returns of multiple digs and derives value from the cards placed in the graveyard by FoF.

Most of my experience playing durdly blue control has been with landstill, where I run barbarian ring, which has made me always constantly aware of threshold.  To get to threshold quickly I usually need an early Dack Fayden or Standstill.  Since this card requires a similar number of cards in your yard as threshold you'd definitely need another draw engine/graveyard builder to really make this card even worth the singleton. 

If you really wanted to overload a deck with FoFs and Digs, I could see more than 1 copy being worth it, but its kind of in competition with FoF since they are both vying for that late game draw engine slot.  I think Dack Fayden definitely needs to be paired with this card as he plays a slightly different role in decks and can build your yard to much greater effect than FoF can.

[zeus-online]

.

[Chubby Rain]

I don't think you need to cast this for UU to make it good. Between a couple fetchlands, cheap counterspells, and a Clique that eats a Lightning Bolt, you should be able to cast it for 1UU or 2UU at the opponent's EOT in the mid to late game. I look forward to this coming out online so I can get some games in with it.

[zeus-online]

.

[Chubby Rain]

That is why i specified at which cost i think this is superior to other alternatives. It has a lot of competition. I'm pretty certain that it is at its best in gush decks. Although it has a strange form of synergy with mana drain.

It is probably garbage vs. shops, but so are most 4 cast spells.

My response was mostly to Lance. I agree with the main points you are making, though would also like to add Gitaxian Probe as another cantrip and that I'm not sure Gush decks are the right fit. Most are running Will and Snapcaster Mages.

[vaughnbros]

This should be viewed in a situation where you are behind or equal to your opponent. My experience is that my graveyard fills up much much faster in games where i am winning.

Most blue decks are winning when they are more drawing cards, and when you are drawing/playing more cards your graveyard is going to fill faster.

I don't think you need to cast this for UU to make it good. Between a couple fetchlands, cheap counterspells, and a Clique that eats a Lightning Bolt, you should be able to cast it for 1UU or 2UU at the opponent's EOT in the mid to late game. I look forward to this coming out online so I can get some games in with it.

It's only cast-able mid to late game though.  Unlike Gifts, FoF, Jace, Dack, and other card draw options you can't leverage mana floods with this card.  A hand of mox, sol ring, island, fetch, dig, flusterstorm, force is pretty much an instant mulligan, but replace that dig with any other the other options and it's definitely a keeper.