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Chubby Rain
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« on: September 17, 2014, 09:33:09 am » |
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As a control player, I have always had a soft spot for MUC and I began tinkering with the deck a couple a months ago. Because of Miguel Angel Díaz's recent finish in the LCV, interest in the deck has risen and Eric Froelich and David Williams both choose to run MUC this week in the Vintage Super League. I thought it would be helpful to create a thread with some background on the deck, some explanation of card choices, and hopefully this will serve as a springboard for discussion of the archetype. First, the list: Miguel Angel Díaz - Mono Blue Control Maindeck: 3 Flooded Strand 8 Island 1 Library of Alexandria 3 Polluted Delta 1 Strip Mine 2 Consecrated Sphinx 4 Trinket Mage 4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 1 Ancestral Recall 3 Back to Basics 1 Black Lotus 4 Force of Will 1 Grafdigger's Cage 1 Mana Crypt 4 Mana Drain 3 Mental Misstep 2 Mindbreak Trap 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 2 Repeal 2 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Sol Ring 3 Spell Snare 1 Time Walk Sideboard: 2 Dismember 3 Energy Flux 2 Grafdigger's Cage 2 Hurkyl's Recall 3 Propaganda 2 Steel Sabotage 1 Tormod's Crypt The initial version I played contained +1 Thirst for Knowledge and -1 Back to Basics. The sideboard was also significantly different as Workshops was not very prevalent with Tangle Wire being bugged and Oath, Dredge, and BUG Fish made up the majority of the metagame. In that metagame, the deck is relatively intuitive - Back to Basics is backbreaking against Oath and BUG Fish while also helping in the Dredge match up by locking down Bazaars. The large number of basics helped to negate BUG fishes Wasteland plan and the Trinket Mage package meant I was running a full set of "8" Grafdigger's Cages post board with the chance to hit them game reliably game 1 against Dredge and Oath. Consecrated Sphinx may seem weird but I wanted a way to fight the Show and Tell plan against Oath (Griselbrand is much worse when you lose 7 life and the opponent draws 7 more cards than you) while also playing a virtually unkillable threat against BUG (dodges Abrupt Decay and Dismember). I have been very pleasantly surprised with Consecrated Sphinx and have never lost after resolving it (and it resolves pretty often given the mana boost from Trinket Mage and Mana Drain as well as the extensive counter package). That said, I put the deck on the shelf for a while because I wanted to test new decks and the rise in Young Pyromancer and Gush decks presented a different puzzle to solve. Propaganda is a very interesting addition in the sideboard and not one I had considered - mad props to Miguel Angel Diaz for that particular innovation. It should be noted that Propaganda only affects creatures attacking YOU and not creatures attacking Jace. Oh, and Repeals are in the list primarily to avoid dying to Mana Crypt, though the synergy with Top and versatility of the card are definite pluses. A few cards to consider are         The deck has room for customization and has a lot of play to it. Comments, questions, critiques, updated lists, tournament reports, etc. are strongly encouraged and I hope a civil discussion will follow. Edited 9/17/14 to fix images because I am an idiot. |
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« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 09:37:47 am by Chubby Rain »
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MTGFan
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2014, 10:09:57 am » |
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This looks alot like my Faerie Stompy deck in that they both are essentially control decks that use efficient and disruptive blue creatures to both attack and further the control plan.
I built Faerie Stompy entirely around 4 Trinket mage + 4 Chalice of the Void. I have found Chalice + Trinket Mage to be extremely strong in this format because of the versatility and power of Chalice at 0, 1, and 2.
Have you considered playing 4 Chalice of the Void? I think this deck would be even stronger if you sub out, say, 3 Mental Misstep 1 Mindbreak Trap and play 4 Chalice, thus making it more proactively controlling and versatile.
Also, Vendilion Clique and Sower of Temptation are insane at what they do. I'd play at least 2 Clique MD and 2 Sower SB.
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« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 10:12:28 am by MTGFan »
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KanaKaishou
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2014, 05:51:27 pm » |
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0 Vendilion Clique in the initial list is baffling to me. Also, 4 Jace is just not something I can justify nowadays.
But it's a cool idea to start with.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 12:18:40 am » |
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0 Vendilion Clique in the initial list is baffling to me.
Nobody is perfect. I have had 2-3 in the list since then. Side note: Vendilion Clique + Consecrated Sphinx work well together like Charlie Sheen and Tiger Blood. Also, 4 Jace is just not something I can justify nowadays.
I am not sure I agree. Could you expand on that a bit? |
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 12:23:18 am » |
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This looks alot like my Faerie Stompy deck in that they both are essentially control decks that use efficient and disruptive blue creatures to both attack and further the control plan.
I built Faerie Stompy entirely around 4 Trinket mage + 4 Chalice of the Void. I have found Chalice + Trinket Mage to be extremely strong in this format because of the versatility and power of Chalice at 0, 1, and 2.
Have you considered playing 4 Chalice of the Void? I think this deck would be even stronger if you sub out, say, 3 Mental Misstep 1 Mindbreak Trap and play 4 Chalice, thus making it more proactively controlling and versatile.
Also, Vendilion Clique and Sower of Temptation are insane at what they do. I'd play at least 2 Clique MD and 2 Sower SB.
The deck is mana hungry with Jace and Sphinx and shutting down the Moxen does not help hit six drops later in the game. Back to Basics is also not really a proactive card in that I want the opponent to play spells and then counter those spells to leave them tapped out. You could rebuild the deck by cutting Missteps, Spell Snares, Repeals, Mana Drains, Tops, etc. but then it would be a very different deck. On the other hand, I agree wholeheartedly with Clique and Sower (have honestly run up to 4 in an effort to combat creature decks). |
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wette
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 06:24:28 am » |
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Hi all, i'm the one playing the list above  After the tournament i 've been testing clique vs Sphinx, 80% of times i prefer Cosecrated to be Vendilion so i think -2 sphinx +2 vendilion is a auto change. I would really appreciate an explanation from Kanakaishou about 4 Jaces i think it's completely fundamental for the deck :s Maindeck has no room for major changes (a part from the Clique/sphinx discussion) IMHO, i think the deck needs to be as redundant as possible but sideboard offers possibilities: trinket toolbox (pithing? EE?) if you are not facing so many MUDs or dredges you should make room for a couple of flusterstorms to close the combo-control match. I'm playing the deck again next week so improvements welcomed. No room for chalices for reasons that had been already noticed BUT: Engineered Explosives would have been really nice in a lot of games, B2B + destroy a couple of moxes= GG. |
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« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 06:29:03 am by wette »
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Keeper is unaffected by B2B cause keeper doesn't need to tap its lands. OMG!
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tribet
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 06:51:32 am » |
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How does Spell Snare perform for you?
Why do you favour Repeal?
Is aggro (Merfolk, BUG, Delver...) a concern for you? Propaganda is so gas, I love it too!
I love B2B in Legacy but I'm not 100% sold on it in Vintage due to the amount of Moxen & decks generally running a couple of basics because of MUD. Maybe 1 (or 2) is ok for mid or late game blow out.
Blowing up Moxen with EE would be too symmetrical in your build. I'm not convinced it is the greatest plan. I would generally favour Wasteland. I admit EE is great against critters (especially True-Name) but again you're MonoU with moxens (and Tricket Mage for tutoring colours I guess)
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« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 06:56:57 am by tribet »
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Samoht
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 07:13:14 am » |
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Hi all, i'm the one playing the list above After the tournament i 've been testing clique vs Sphinx, 80% of times i prefer Cosecrated to be Vendilion so i think -2 sphinx +2 vendilion is a auto change. I would really appreciate an explanation from Kanakaishou about 4 Jaces i think it's completely fundamental for the deck :s Maindeck has no room for major changes (a part from the Clique/sphinx discussion) IMHO, i think the deck needs to be as redundant as possible but sideboard offers possibilities: trinket toolbox (pithing? EE?) if you are not facing so many MUDs or dredges you should make room for a couple of flusterstorms to close the combo-control match. I'm playing the deck again next week so improvements welcomed. No room for chalices for reasons that had been already noticed BUT: Engineered Explosives would have been really nice in a lot of games, B2B + destroy a couple of moxes= GG. You CAN play both Sphinx and Clique, and like Matt alluded they have great synnergy. It's a false dichotomy to only compare them to each other. EE seems terrible in a mono colored deck. Wouldn't something like Ratchet Bomb be more effective? How does Spell Snare perform for you?
Why do you favour Repeal?
Is aggro (Merfolk, BUG, Delver...) a concern for you? Propaganda is so gas, I love it too!
I love B2B in Legacy but I'm not 100% sold on it in Vintage due to the amount of Moxen & decks generally running a couple of basics because of MUD. Maybe 1 (or 2) is ok for mid or late game blow out.
Blowing up Moxen with EE would be too symmetrical in your build. I'm not convinced it is the greatest plan. I would generally favour Wasteland. I admit EE is great against critters (especially True-Name) but again you're MonoU with moxens (and Tricket Mage for tutoring colours I guess)
If our last conversation holds true, Matt has favored Spell Snare because of its performance. I've been actively pushing the card for awhile now and I'm glad that Justin and Matt are with me on it. The most important spells in Vintage all cost 2 mana. It's the situational counter that is most effective against Workshops. It does so much heavy lifting I don't understand it's dearth in the metagame. Repeal is a catch all. Because MUC has so few answers to permanents, it needs something for the times it can't win the war on the stack. Repeal also cantrips as needed on Moxen and as such won the slot. Regarding B2B: It's still a blow out. Most decks can't win on the stack with only 1-2 lands and some jewelry. Oft times, they don't go and find the basics against you because they aren't afraid of Waste or B2B (it IS a fringe card at the moment) so you get added value. Obviously only works once in a match up but once is > 0. Agreed on EE not making sense. I'd push Ratchet Bomb here. Also don't think we want more colorless sources that get trapped by B2B if we actually need them. |
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-Randy Bueller
I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.
The best part of believe is the lie
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wette
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 07:39:58 am » |
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I can play Sphinx and Clique but i don't have room to play both but i'm still open to proposals on what to cut.
- Agree on Samoth snare and repeal explanation
- On B2B: is not only that it autowins some games it is also that it changes your opponents play qhen they know they are facing it, most decks play2-3 basic lands+ jewerly cut this 2-3 extra mana they would have is the difference between getting overpassed by (lets say) tezz or gush bombs, we are a heavy control deck, if they cannot play a bunch of threads in the same turn they are getting hard times.
- On ratched bomb: it can't be searched with trinket mage and i'm only thinking about 1 copy and that's why i was proposing EE, most times you want to play it for 0 (moxes, tokens...) and you can regularely play it for 2 with any mox, and it can be picked with trinket which is the main point.
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Keeper is unaffected by B2B cause keeper doesn't need to tap its lands. OMG!
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fsecco
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 09:16:34 am » |
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Batterskull is a nice addition to the SB I guess. Specially if the deck gets more popular and Llawan starts showing around. I also think the deck will benefit hugely from Dig Through Time.
CotV would be a nice addition to the SB if you want to combat a heavy combo metagame. Specially because you can Repeal it EOT, play your moxen and play it again - but that would require you to not play Chalice for 1, which could hurt. I could even think about 1-of in the SB, but that could be too slow against combo.
I like Sphinx because it can be resolved pretty early with Mana Drain or Trinket Mage support. Once it resolves, it's very hard to deal with it. It's one of the creatures I could think of that will probably make Murderous Cut a playable card.
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Grand Inquisitor
Always the play, never the thing
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 09:27:54 am » |
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I know this seems janky, but what about Vedalken Shackles? It seems like it would be easy to drop, has synergy with the rest of the control elements and would be harder to remove than Sower and re-usable unlike Repeal/EE/Bomb. It would probably fight with Batterskull for SB space, but it would give a lot of options.
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There is not a single argument in your post. Just statements that have no meaning. - Guli
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2014, 09:55:07 am » |
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EE getting fetched by trinket makes it infinitely better than ratchet bomb and it addresses a major a problem with the decks inability to handle permanents. Seems like an absolute no brainer.
I can't imagine playing a deck with no MD creature removal in today's creature heavy meta. I think the dismembers should be in the main. I'm not sure what Id move to the side, but I think they need to be there.
My question for this deck is back to basics better than being able to play red/white/green/black cards? It seems like a pretty direct trade. The sideboard seems to suffer the most from this.
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oshkoshhaitsyosh
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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2014, 11:06:04 am » |
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Hmmmm. This deck just looks inferior to all of the UW control variations available. UW gives you everything and more...ok so you lose back to basics, but you gain swords to Plowshares, Engineered Explosives (on 2), and all the other variations like sfm or resto angel. I can't see why I would want to limit myself to a mono color deck...
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Team Josh Potucek
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enderfall
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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2014, 02:57:28 pm » |
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The biggest problem that I've had with Back to Basics in Vintage (as opposed to Legacy, and a lesser extent Classic) is the presence of Moxen. Once you catch your opponent with it off guard, they know to grab the 1 or 2 basics in their deck in order to avoid it and the Moxen help ensure that they can cast almost everything in their deck. It's not quite as powerful as a Blood Moon since they can still fetch out their basics after BtB hits the field.
In this way, I'm wondering if this deck doesn't want to go more towards the mana denial route and play Null Rod, and maybe even Stifle (probably not Stifle, but it fits the theme in mono-blue)? For a deck that lacks removal, full mana denial with counter magic backup might be the best course of action, IMHO.
In the end, I think splashing for white, even if only for StP, just makes the deck more powerful than a small mana denial BtB sub-theme.
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boggyb
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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2014, 03:17:57 pm » |
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yes, seems to me a splash in Vintage is virtually free for any deck. Just 1 or 2 Volcanic Islands in the main + 4 Tarns and a mountain in the sideboard would improve the shops match by 20-30% at least without subtracting from any others. Or Black for Jailers and Spellbombs, Green for Nature's Claim and Trygon, etc.
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Samoht
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« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2014, 03:53:13 pm » |
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Immunity to Wasteland is real. Never having a mana issue, ever, is real. There are benefits to MUC.
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Char? Char you! I like the play.
-Randy Bueller
I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.
The best part of believe is the lie
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fsecco
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« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2014, 04:59:28 pm » |
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Null Rod could seem good, but the fact that it shuts down Top on a deck that has little manipulation seems bad. Maybe when Dig Through Time is released Top could go and give space to Rods.
For now, I think 1 EE maindeck to fetch with Trinket Mages and blow for 0 is perfect.
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KanaKaishou
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« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2014, 06:13:44 pm » |
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0 Vendilion Clique in the initial list is baffling to me.
Nobody is perfect. I have had 2-3 in the list since then. Side note: Vendilion Clique + Consecrated Sphinx work well together like Charlie Sheen and Tiger Blood. Also, 4 Jace is just not something I can justify nowadays.
I am not sure I agree. Could you expand on that a bit? I'm generally of the opinion that Jace is a super clunky, but highly powerful card. It's really the most "oops I win" card in the deck (OK, maybe Consecrated Sphinx), but it's honestly super awkward in creature based matchups. I understand that you're mono-blue, and Jace is a very good compact threat, but I'd rather play 3 and a Thirst for Knowledge or Fact or Fiction than 4 Jace. I agree about the nature of what that slot ought to be (generic card advantage), but I think that 4 Jace is just trying to maximize your Kohler potential rather than your winning potential. |
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serracollector
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« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2014, 06:24:27 pm » |
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If you decide to run stifle i would try to fit in one dreadnaught since its fetchable w your trinket mages. i personally run one maindeck energy flux for moxen. always seemed better than rod to me in monoblue.
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B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2014, 07:08:19 pm » |
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I know this seems janky, but what about Vedalken Shackles? It seems like it would be easy to drop, has synergy with the rest of the control elements and would be harder to remove than Sower and re-usable unlike Repeal/EE/Bomb. It would probably fight with Batterskull for SB space, but it would give a lot of options.
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14342&iddeck=105783I love janky. The biggest issue I had was spending 5 mana and losing my Shackles to Abrupt Decay. If that card is not seeing much play in your metagame, it's actually very good. |
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"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"
"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"
"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"
Random conversations...
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2014, 11:49:25 am » |
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Immunity to Wasteland is real. Never having a mana issue, ever, is real. There are benefits to MUC.
I guess its a slight advantage. I just feel like a properly built 2 color mana base doesn't really have much trouble playing around wasteland, and could actually probably also play with back to basics. I used to play 7 blood moons, which are much more restrictive, in a 2 color deck and rarely had any color problems. |
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Jeb Springfield
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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2014, 06:06:26 am » |
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I'm sure that everyone here noted that both Eric Froehlich and Dave Williams have played this deck, or something very similar, in the Vintage Super League. In week 4, Dave played against LSV who was playing a Grixis Mana Drain deck and LSV won. Particularly in game 1, LSV's Black tutors (Vampiric Tutor etc) seemed to make a big difference and gave the Grixis deck a big edge.
I was just wondering if someone with more experience with the deck could tell me if this is the norm? That is to say, is the loss of Black tutors something which gives control decks with Black tutors a big edge in the match up? Or was that match one which is out of the ordinary? I completely understand the benefits of playing a mono coloured deck. Does what you win against Wasteland end up costing you against other control deck?
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2014, 09:32:29 am » |
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Normally I don't care about the Tutors and just counter what my opponent grabs. Vampiric tutor and Mystical tutor are actually great for the MUC deck because it puts Grixis down a card. Decks like this and UW Bomberman do not run typically run tutors (aside from Trinket Mage) as the deck has much more consistency. I could see Merchant Scroll if you are running Snapcaster Mages, just because Tiago + Recall is a gamebreaker, but otherwise I don't think you are benefiting much as you lack bombs like Tinker, Vault+Key, and Will. Does what you win against Wasteland end up costing you against other control deck?
That seems to be the running criticism in this thread. I think you have to take the metagame into consideration when answering this. |
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"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"
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"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"
Random conversations...
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2014, 10:06:45 am » |
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"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"
"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"
"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"
Random conversations...
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2014, 12:13:01 pm » |
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What did I miss? Why didn't David just bounce the Lodestone with Jace @ 40:00 and attack for the win with the Trinket Mage? |
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2014, 12:26:40 pm » |
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I'm guessing Lightning Greaves.
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"Why are we making bad decks? I mean, honestly, what is our reason for doing this?"
"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"
"Is that a draft deck?" "Why do people keep asking that?"
Random conversations...
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2014, 01:03:07 pm » |
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I'm guessing Lightning Greaves.
Oh yeah sure, I forgot that it gives shroud as well. Btw that Fuehler dude seems like the nicest guy! |
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Coopes
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« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2014, 01:16:18 pm » |
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The chalice on 6 from bob was so, so bad..but besides that the games were very entertaining! |
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2014, 01:20:10 pm » |
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Totally agree. I have no idea what he was doing. The chalice on 6 from bob was so, so bad..but besides that the games were very entertaining! |
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