Grixis Control lately

[thisfool]

Hi all.

Grixis control is rather popular on MTGO right now. A welder variant has its own thread, but I want to talk about the goblinless alternative. I didn't see any recent discussions on the archetype.

I've always been a fan of big blue control. Builds can be very metagame-dependent and the online meta seems rather narrow at the moment compared with paper.

How does this deck vie in your opinion? I have a list of my own, but consider a backbone of the following:

Permission
4x Force of Will
3x Mental Misstep
2x Mana Drain

Draw
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
4x Night's Whisper (or Dark Confidant, or nothing)
1x Thirst For Knowledge
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Nihil Spellbomb

Search
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Tinker

Robots
1x Blightsteel Colossus

Planeswalkers
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Tezzeret the Seeker

Burn
1x Lightning Bolt, 1x Fire/Ice (or 2x Lightning Bolt)

Recursion
1x Yawgmoth's Will
3x Snapcaster Mage

Other
1x Time Walk
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key
1x Hurkyl's Recall

Sorry, I made up those categories as I went.

[Chubby Rain]

You admit that builds are pretty metagame dependent but then don't go on to talk about about the metagame you expect.

That said, the list is pretty standard. Blightsteel has gotten worse with Jace and now Dack Fayden in the format - many decks are switching to Myr Battlesphere or even Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Toxic Deluge is worth a maindeck slot right now as Vintage is progressively creature heavy. Dark Confidant has also gotten worse as decks are running more creature removal, life has become more relevant against tempo-based decks, and Bob has become a liability in the Oath matchup.

[portland]

Battlesphere seems a good overall choice these days, good old inky might be worth another look too for the best in removal dodging

[Twiedel]

I've been piloting the "Grixis" deck quite a bit, and I must say that it was the best Dark Confidant deck available around two years ago ... today it blends over to being more like Control Slaver. I think this "old" route is not so good right now, as running planeswalkers without the creatures to chump block for them is not that appealing, and as people noted already Tinker-Robot has gotten worse, Confidant has gotten worse, and you'll likely need more removal. Also, with Null Rod back in the game again in Vintage, Time Vault + Key is not the best kill any more.

Currently I think this deck can not compete very well with the BUG lists, and it is struggling with the new Control Slaver lists as well due to fewer Walkers. We might need to rethink the whole concept - of course, it is a deck full of great cards, and you'll sure give people a hard time to beat you with a good draw. But right now there are better options.

[msg67183]

I think the presence of Abrupt Decay also makes Time Vault / Voltaic Key worse as a win con nowadays.

So my view on the Grixis Broken deck from a year or two ago:

Bob has gotten worse due to increases of removal and prevalence of creatures.
Vault/ Key has gotten worse due to Abrupt Decay and Rod effects.
Blightsteel has gotten worse due to Dack Fayden.

All in all I'd say that Grixis needs to transform into a more controlling build and less of a combo "oops I win" build.

Cards that I think a new grixis list should play:

Trinket Mage - this guy has proven his worth for years, I don't think he needs an explanation.
Keranos, God of the Storm - this guy is an unanswerable win con and CA engine in a single card, if resolved.
Baleful Strix - this guy was seeing heavy play when it first came out, what happened? I think he's great especially with Welder
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas - in the right deck this can be better than Jace, especially with a bunch of creature decks around

The are countless other cards I'm just giving a few I think could be used to make a more controlling Grixis deck

[H]

I've been writing a new primer to the meta archetype I call Confidant-Jace control, but a new job has severely limited the amount of time I have to work on it.

Despite all the changes to the meta over the last few years, I think that Confidant is still good.  I'll expand on my reasoning when I get home from work and can post my current list, but I did take 9th place at the NYSE Open with a BUG list.

While I think Grixis can be tuned to really beat a very specific meta, I feel BUG is more suited to a wide, less defined meta, largely because Abrupt Decay is so versatile.

EDIT: Here is what  was playing:
Business (36)
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
2 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Drain
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Tezzeret, the Seeker
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
4 Dark Confidant
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trygon Predator
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Mana Sources (24)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
   
Sideboard (15)
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Nature’s Claim
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Forest
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Yixlid Jailer

24 mana sources s on the high side, lately I went back down to 23 adding a Thirst for Knowledge (which constantly disappoints me).

The problem I have with Grixis is that it is rather weak to Oath, since a counter is your only way to interact.  Abrupt Decay really gives you the ability to fight against multiple problematic permanent types with a single card.  I'm the first to admit that the archetype isn't as good as it once was, but you still have a good chance versus a good portion of the meta in my opinion.

[Jeb Springfield]

I don't have much experience with Grixis Control in Vintage, but with regards to Oath, isn't Grafdigger's Cage a good answer?

In case anyone is interested, this is the list that LSV played in weeks 4-6 of the Vintage Super League (he went 3-0):

Lands
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta

Artifact Mana
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

Artifacts
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Instants
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection

1 Fire//Ice
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Brainstorm

Sorceries
1 Time Walk
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor


Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Dack Fayden

Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Sideboard
1 Mountain
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Notion Thief
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Viashino Heretic
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Thoughtseize
1 Lightning Bolt

Of course this deck was heavily metagamed, but I did recently see him play almost the same deck online in a video on Channel Fireball's website (where he also won all his matches). I think that the changes he made were:
Mainboard
- 1 Toxic Deluge, - 1 Dack Fayden
+ 1 Dark Confidant, + 1 Mental Misstep

Sideboard
- 1 Lightning Bolt, - 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Nihil Spellbomb, + 1 Ingot Chewer

I understand that success in the VSL, or some amount of success in a few online games does not constitute success overall, butt seems to me that the strength of any Mana Drain deck is the fact that it can be tuned for any metagame and then be successful. As was noted, it appears as if there is a shell of cards which sort of constitutes the deck. I don't really have enough Confidance (joke) to be able to say exactly what they are, but it seems reasonable to assert that the basic shell is ~10 counterspells, 24-25 mana sources, Tinker, Vault//Key, Blightsteel (or other), a few Planeswalkers (normally Jace) and some number of card draw spells and tutors.

Is Dark Confidant something that should be played these days? Brian DeMars wrote an article a few months ago saying that because so many extra creatures are being played in Vintage, Dark Confidant is less likely to stay in play for multiple turns. Perhaps Snapcaster Mage is a better option, as it essentially 'draws' the situationally best Instant or Sorcery in your graveyard while giving you a 2/1?

[thisfool]

I look forward to that reading.

So, green gives you access to abrupt decay, nature's claim and trygon predator at the expense of red's bolt, fire/ice, and pyroblast, plus some other sideboard goodies. This seems like a fine way to deal with oath, shops, and a less defined field like you said. Do you feel more vulnerable to planeswalkers? I have faced lots of blue decks lately and found bolt/pyroblast useful. We could mix in some spell pierce.

I am also entertained by the discussion of Night's Whisper vs Bob. I use NW at the moment.

[Jeb Springfield]

I definitely think that adding Green helps against Oath of Druids, as well as helping to provide a generic answer to a lot of permanents. You could Abrupt Decay a Young Pyromancer for example. Losing Red does seem like it makes you much softer to Planeswalkers. In general, Lightning Bolt and Pyroblast / REB are extremely efficient and versatile answers, but then again the uncounterability part of Abrupt Decay is very relevant.

I would also like to note that Snapcaster Mage works very well with Green's artifact hate, as you can flash Nature's Claim back for example. This is not an option with Ingot Chewer, assuming that is the Red artifact hate you choose.

If you were to play Green, you could consider, Pithing Needle as an answer to Planeswalkers. I understand it shuts your own Jace off, but it can hit a lot of other targets like Bazaar of Baghdad, Forgemaster, or manlands like Mutavault and Mishra's Factory (which would otherwise be a problem for Green).

[H]

Yes, Green does leave you open to Planeswalkers somewhat, but Bolt versus most actually played Planeswalkers is easy for them to play around.  With a Red up, almost everyone knows now to Fateseal immediately. I do tend to aggressively counter most Planeswalkers though.

I think that many of the knocks on Confidant is largely overstated at this point.  There certainly is merit to there being more removal played now than before, but considering that you can run Mental Misstep, really the only removal you can't answer is Abrupt Decay.

What I like most about the deck I played is that there are very few ways to truly hate it out.  There aren't really any sideboard cards that can deal with all the ways you can win.  I'd say that Jace is probably the worst card for us (by itself) and I actually feel that since people have been running more and more creatures,  Jace seems less prevailent.

[Jeb Springfield]

I don't want this to derail the thread, given it is called "Grixis Control Lately", but would you consider a four colour option? We've noted that there are strong benefits to playing Green along with the regular UB shell, but losing Red can be problematic, particularly in a Planeswalker heavy metagame.

For an idea, here is Kevin Cron's deck list from last year's Eternal Weekend, at which he made top 8:
Lands
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
3 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest

Artifact Mana
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

Artifacts
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Instants
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Snare

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Lightning Bolt

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm

Sorceries
1 Time Walk
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

Enchantments
None

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Sideboard
1 Mountain
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Steel Sabotage
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Leyline of the Void

[msg67183]

I actually don't like Vault Key as a win condition anymore. Abrupt Decay is everywhere. If one insists on playing Vault Key I think the deck should pack answers to it, some Thoughtseize, Misdirections, Mindbreak Traps.

[Hrishi]

I agree with vault key not being a great win condition anymore, but not because of Abrupt Decay? My experience has been that I've seen much less compared to before. Assembling vault key is just a pain and drawing one is just a dead card without a way to access the other.

[Jeb Springfield]

@msg67183 and HrishiQQ: I'm interested to hear that you don't think Vault / Key is a good win condition anymore. What do you prefer to run instead?

[Chubby Rain]

@msg67183 and HrishiQQ: I'm interested to hear that you don't think Vault / Key is a good win condition anymore. What do you prefer to run instead?

Keranos

Third/Fourth - Tom Dixon, Risky Business

4- Treasure Cruise
4- Snapcaster Mage
4- Force of Will
2- Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3- Mental Misstep
1- Ancestral Recall
1- Black Lotus
1- Mox Jet
1- Mox Ruby
1- Mox Sapphire
1- Timewalk
1- Dack Fayden
1- Library of Alexandria
2- Mana Drain
1- Sol Ring
2- Engineered Explosives
4- Scalding Tarn
3- Volcanic Island
2- Underground Sea
2- Spell Snare
1- Brainstorm
3- Lightning Bolt
1- Nihil Spellbomb
3- Preordain
2- Island
1- Strip Mine
1- Mountain
1- Demonic Tutor
1- Keranos, God of Storms
3- Flooded Strand
2- Izzet Charm

Sideboard

2- Nihil Spellbomb
2- Red Elemental Blast
2- Mindbreak Trap
4- Ingot Chewer
1- Yixlid Jailer
1- Toxic Deluge
2- Ravenous Trap
1- Dismember

[Hrishi]

@msg67183 and HrishiQQ: I'm interested to hear that you don't think Vault / Key is a good win condition anymore. What do you prefer to run instead?

Well, I am personally still running vault/key, I just don't think it's quite as powerful as it once was.

[msg67183]

@msg67183 and HrishiQQ: I'm interested to hear that you don't think Vault / Key is a good win condition anymore. What do you prefer to run instead?

I'd run a more streamlined Control list. Like UW Angels or Bomberman style just play cards like I've already mentioned, Keranos, Baleful Strix, Trinket Mage, etc.

[Phele]

I like Esper in the moment as the combination for control-combo and play one Auriok Salvagers and a Nihil Spellbomb over Vault and Key, paired with a couple of Trinkets. The Auriok combo is much less explosive than Vault and Key but less vulnerable to Decay and offers more flexible uses. And you can still play Tinker as your go to card for quick kills.

[zeus-online]

.

[Hrishi]

I definitely think Tezzeret is much weaker now, you often cannot pass the turn after a tezz activation and expect it to live. Or at least, you need a lot more answers on the board in order to do so. DTT seems like it just wins when it resolves most of the time. Running additional fetches are really good to feed the delve cards, so if you feel Mana Vault is weak you could add an extra fetch in there!

Thoughtseize is great to feed your own delve cards too. I am also running both Will and DTT but I don't know if that's being too greedy..

I'm not sure green is as bad as you say for shops, you would get access to Trygon Predator and Nature's Claim for efficient answers to shops. Red is certainly superior though. But as you said, Abrupt Decay is so versatile!

[KrauserKrauser]

I think if nothing else replacing Facts with DTT makes sense.  With the random counters, draw spells and fetches you are going to have 4 cards in the yard before you would be casting Fact anyway.

You only get to keep two cards vs. a possible 3-4 but you look 2 cards deeper and offer no information to your opponent.

I run 1 Fact currently and will definitely be making the switch.  Running any more than 1 would likely require more cantrips like this build and I'm not certain about that change.

In that list I would probably cut one Fire/Ice and one Pyroblast to make room for a Thoughtsieze and Dack.  Maybe change the last MB blast to a Flusterstorm, just for some added flexibility.  If you really, really wanted Thirst, you could always cut 1 Preordain for it.  That still leaves you with 6 one drops that draw cards.

Since everyone appears to be jamming Treasure Cruise into things, Notion Thief looks pretty good as well.  Sure, it doesn't do anything to DTT, but it might take my Misdirection slot with all of these gold laden ships floating around now.

[zeus-online]

.

[brianpk80]

I definitely think Tezzeret is much weaker now, you often cannot pass the turn after a tezz activation and expect it to live.

Tezzeret for Time Vault has gotten much worse but big Tez still has other surprisingly effective applications in Vintage, like piecing together the Auriok combo or killing Merfolk with a board of 5/5 artifacts that happen to be inoperable due to Null Rod. 

[Chubby Rain]

I actually counted my yard every time i cast fact during my last test session, i could rarely have played DTT instead. I really think these decks needs to transition to more early game draw spells and potentially proactive disruptive effects in order to maximize the usage of DTT.

In general, certain cards become worse with DTT and TC. Vampiric tutor, mystical tutor, imperial seal, etc generate card disadvantage and make it harder to fill up your graveyard. Force of Will and Misdirection are less good for the same reason. I have found myself moving away from cards like Sensei's Divining Top to Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain, and trying to maximize Fetches over other lands. I'm not necessarily advocating these changes (though in my opinion, they have been beneficial) but simply stating that there are costs and considerations to be made with every spell and it's not as simple as switching one card for another.

[portland]

Just watching test games on MODO, have still to see a brutally effective DTT or TC resolved. What I have seen was perhaps the funniest use of remand by a budget deck ever. Any releveant counter would have stopped it, as the guy casting was pretty much on vapours, but csntripping and stranding the then dead card just amused me. The next game, same guy sucked all the chaff and some of the business out of his yard, only to have notion thief drop - when player 2 said in chat "at least you're filling your gy for more delve spells" player 1 hit the rage quit button.

[vaughnbros]

I actually counted my yard every time i cast fact during my last test session, i could rarely have played DTT instead. I really think these decks needs to transition to more early game draw spells and potentially proactive disruptive effects in order to maximize the usage of DTT.

In general, certain cards become worse with DTT and TC. Vampiric tutor, mystical tutor, imperial seal, etc generate card disadvantage and make it harder to fill up your graveyard. Force of Will and Misdirection are less good for the same reason. I have found myself moving away from cards like Sensei's Divining Top to Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain, and trying to maximize Fetches over other lands. I'm not necessarily advocating these changes (though in my opinion, they have been beneficial) but simply stating that there are costs and considerations to be made with every spell and it's not as simple as switching one card for another.

If you previously came to the conclusion that vampiric, SDT, were superior to preordain, and a less fetch heavy mana base was better than you have to ask yourself if DTT and TC are really worth it?  I mean if they are forcing you to play suboptimal cards in other slots I think that's an issue.  

After doing some of my own testing of DTT in landstill, albiet a much fairer deck than normal Grixis, I have to say I'm less than impressed.  Id almost always rather have an actual threat than it, as blasphemous as this may sound tombstalker would've actually been a better delve card for me.

EDIT:  Before anyone jumps to conclusions.  I'm saying that DTT is similar to a tutor and wants you to have options like tinker/vault/key/ect.  In a fair deck it doesn't seem worth it.

[KrauserKrauser]

I've only played a few games with DTT in a Grixis shell but so far I've had it stranded in my hand more often than not.

It could be that even more fundamental changes are necessary to make it work, but the performance so far is lackluster.

TC in Delver makes sense as the deck is highly redundant and not dependent on finding specific kill conditions.  I'm going to try switching DTT to TC in Grixis to see where it gets me.

[zeus-online]

.

[KrauserKrauser]

It was in a few of the games I played.  Getting stuck on one land and some artifact mana is not that uncommon of a scenario.

[Chubby Rain]

If you previously came to the conclusion that vampiric, SDT, were superior to preordain, and a less fetch heavy mana base was better than you have to ask yourself if DTT and TC are really worth it?  I mean if they are forcing you to play suboptimal cards in other slots I think that's an issue.  

The answer to that question depends on the deck, but if the benefit of running DTT and TC outweighs the opportunity cost of running the other cards then it's not an issue - you are just making the deck overall more powerful. The comparison to FoF is not ideal; I think the card plays closer to Gifts Ungiven. You should generally be able to win the game when it's cast and that is not something that Landstill decks typically do.