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DaveKap
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« on: October 14, 2014, 09:08:58 am »

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« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 08:35:27 am by DaveKap » Logged
xouman
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2014, 10:02:27 am »

I'm not sure I'd play green in this deck. I'll to stick to UR, maybe fitting snapcasters in tarmo's place, even when they seem a non-bo with treasure cruise.
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jyuj
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2014, 10:36:31 am »

I would suggest that you need Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay in this deck. DRS is going to help you fix so many problems that this deck is going to run into. Abrupt Decay is an important card to include in this build because it will let you have a way to kill Oath. Obvy these two cards do many things, but the Oath match up is a real weakness. GL with brewing !
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2014, 11:09:20 am »




. Obvy these two cards do many things, but the Oath match up is a real weakness. GL with brewing !

That's definitely not true. Game one can go either way, but if you have enough hate games two and three Rug is favored. Abrupt Decay does make the matchup better, true, but splashing a fourth color might not be the best idea in a metagame full of Wastelands.  Dave, I would suggest adding one or two more Nature's claims to the board, then your oath matchup will be excellent. I also would suggest swapping the Goyf in the board back to the main deck and moving a delver to the side. I think Goyf is generally stronger than Delver in the non-combo, non-merfolk matchups.

I'm not sure I'd play green in this deck. I'll to stick to UR, maybe fitting snapcasters in tarmo's place, even when they seem a non-bo with treasure cruise.
Green looks very strong for the expected meta. Tarmogoyf is an excellent threat, Nature's claim makes the Oath matchup  a lot better while doubling as shop hate(and a sideboard card for UW control), and Ancient Grudge is a solid card against multiple decks.
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jyuj
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2014, 12:05:01 pm »

Hmmm, well I didnt mean to make it sound like Delver VS Oath was unwinnable for Delver. I agree it can go both ways game one, but that is a very general statement. I will be more clear with why I think it is an up hill battle (Not impossible) for the Delver pilot. These points will apply to a powered or non-power deck.
1-Oath is packing a full set of Mental Misstep, and one Toxic Deluge.
2- The best open you can have is land, Delver, with Lotus Petal for like a Brainstorm, and hope you have Force + blue card. Most of the time you are just happy with a turn one Delver + Force back up. This is exactly what the Oath pilot wants. Now all they have to do is find the Oath.
3- Delver wants to make their opponents life 0 as fast as possible. Getting a 7/7 flying lifelinker, is very hard to get past.  
4- Game 2-3 the hate for Oath is all 1 cmc.
These are some reasons why I think the match up is difficult for any Delver build. There is more nuance in this particular build.

Tarmogoyf I think is a bad choice because it plays poorly with Treasure Cruise. (I would never take out a Delver main, it is part of what makes this deck powerful; Delver is a very strong open)
I agree that it can be hard to stretch to the 4th color in a field with Wasteland. Deathrite Shaman helps to fix this problem. Also DRS fixes problems vs Dredge and Shops
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 12:01:06 pm by jyuj » Logged

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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2014, 11:49:40 pm »

4 Treasure Cruise is mandatory. 4 Mental Missteps is highly encouraged. Would also cut Tarmogoyf in favor of ???? (Snapcaster isn't great when you are trying to hit two mana and then waste your opponent out. I could see Gorilla Shaman, Monastery Swift Guy, etc. Dack Fayden is also pretty sweet) and ignore the people suggesting that you add a 4th color. The deck becomes too dependent on DRS. Without him, you are looking at 3 lands minimum to cast Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay and more if one of your land drops happens to be a basic Island or Waste effect. This is not where you want to be against shops. I would also consider trimming a Lightning Bolt for Fire/Ice. The deck has gained an incredible amount of consistency with the addition of Treasure Cruise and I think the concerns with the Oath match up are overstated.
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2014, 10:54:11 am »

Hmmm, well I didnt mean to make it sound like Delver VS Oath was unwinnable for Delver. I agree it can go both ways game one, but that is a very general statement. I will be more clear with why I think it is an up hill battle (Not impossible) for the Delver pilot. These points will apply to a powered or non-power deck.
I've tested the matchup more than any other(except perhaps for the mirror) and if the delver player has enough hate then it is an uphill battle for the oath player. Once you take out their oaths, they become an awkward Bug Control deck that will get completely outdrawn if it can't land a Jace or Show and tell.

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1-Oath is packing a full set of Mental Misstep, and one Toxic Deluge.
Hopefully the delver player is packing a playset too. The toxic deluge is irrelevant as long as you don't overcommit, because Delver can completely outdraw Oath in the long game.

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2- The best open you can have is land, Delver, with Lotus Petal for like a Brainstorm, and hope you have Force + blue card. Most of the time you are just happy with a turn one Delver + Force back up. This is exactly what the Oath pilot wants. Now all they have to do is find the Oath.
I wouldn't call this the best possible hand, because it gets screwed over by misstep. This is a fine hand against Oath, especially game 1, but you don't need a threat in your opener. If you have a hand of wastelands and a threat, sure be a tempo deck, but for a majority of the time you will be a control deck against them, which allows you to side out some creatures for hate.


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3- Delver wants to make their opponents life 0 as fast as possible. Getting a 7/7 flying lifelinker, is very hard to get past. 

This is not always the goal of delver. Delver is not a straight up aggro deck like you make out to be. Obviously if they get griselbrand they will win, which is why your goal in the matchup is to prevent them from getting it into play. If the above statement was true Delver would be running swiftspear and price of progress.

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4- Game 2-3 the hate for Oath is all 1 cmc.
This sounds bad in theory, but from testing the matchup I've found that getting blown out by misstep rarely happens.

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Tarmogoyf I think is a bad choice because it plays poorly with Treasure Cruise. (I would never take out a Delver main, it is the key card that makes this deck powerful; Delver is the ideal open)
I agree that it can be hard to stretch to the 4th color in a field with Wasteland. Deathrite Shaman helps to fix this problem. I could explain all the problems that DRS fixes, vs Dredge and Shops but that would take 4~ever.
I can see why one would think Goyf would play badly with Cruise on paper. In practice, it doesn't. You can selectively delve, and the graveyards of your opponents will fuel it too. In many matchups, Goyf is better than Delver. Pyromancer is usually better too. Delver is by no means the key card that gives the deck its strength. That might change if the meta became filled with Combo and merfolk, and a variant of legacy style-Rug or Ur aggro became good, but for now the two drop threats do the most work. This is not to mention that the array of cantrips, cruises and gushes mean that Delver outdraws the majority of decks in the format.

If you want an example of when Delver is weak, it is when the deck is trying to be a control deck. When that happens, Delver is on the weaker side because it can only really do one thing, attack. It can trade with a two power creature, but that isn't always optimal. Tarmogoyf and Pyromancer, on the other hand, while excellent aggressive threats, can act as a moat until you gain control of the game and can finish them off.

The key problem with Delver then, aside from dying to everything, is that it locks you into one role. This is not Legacy Delver where you just want to tempo them out. The unique nature of Vintage means that it is often necessary to outdraw your opponents and grind them out. This is why I think the third golf is better in the main than the fourth delver.

I am aware of what Deathrite does in those matches, I've tried almost everything. I'm not saying adding the extra color is wrong, but I am warning that when you don't draw Deathrite early and they have wastelands you are in for a tough game.
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DaveKap
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2014, 09:50:33 am »

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jyuj
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2014, 12:14:41 pm »

4 Treasure Cruise is mandatory. 4 Mental Missteps is highly encouraged. Would also cut Tarmogoyf in favor of ???? (Snapcaster isn't great when you are trying to hit two mana and then waste your opponent out. I could see Gorilla Shaman, Monastery Swift Guy, etc. Dack Fayden is also pretty sweet) and ignore the people suggesting that you add a 4th color. The deck becomes too dependent on DRS. Without him, you are looking at 3 lands minimum to cast Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay and more if one of your land drops happens to be a basic Island or Waste effect. This is not where you want to be against shops. I would also consider trimming a Lightning Bolt for Fire/Ice. The deck has gained an incredible amount of consistency with the addition of Treasure Cruise and I think the concerns with the Oath match up are overstated.

I think my concerns with Oath are spot on. I tried to be as objective as possible. I explained why it is an up hill battle, with the facts. There is more to say here, but it is obvious things like let the Delver resolve and counter the Cage.............  I think it is at least game 1, 65/35 Oath, Delver.

I agree with your opinion on Treasure Cruise and Mental Misstep, and the other cards that you suggested, especially Dack Dack Goose. He helps fuel Gofy and Cruise, yes please.     
I think you could cut Tarmogoyf in a three color non-power build for more control, but if Goyf does the job better than anything else keep it in there. I was finding 4 Delver and some amount of Pyro to be enough threats and would want more control things to trigger Pyro and play protect the queen with Delver. I also would want to find some room for two Spell Snare, which helps across the board and VS the match up I was finding the most difficult, Oath.
After some more testing with this build I agree that stretching to a 4th color with out power is bad VS shops. (Unless you open with DeathRite Shaman, and it does not get Revoked/Dismembered. lol)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 04:03:12 pm by jyuj » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2014, 01:47:02 pm »

Point of information: Treasure Cruise can not be Misdirection'ed.

I think Control Oath is favored heavily in G1, but a proper SB plan and MD configuration can make the match up swing back the other way into URg Delver's favor. Tarmogoyf is significantly better than Pyromancer in this match up as well.
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2014, 03:17:32 pm »

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jyuj
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2014, 04:01:09 pm »

Point of information: Treasure Cruise can not be Misdirection'ed.

I think Control Oath is favored heavily in G1, but a proper SB plan and MD configuration can make the match up swing back the other way into URg Delver's favor. Tarmogoyf is significantly better than Pyromancer in this match up as well.

O word, Cruise cant be MissD-ed. =\

I didn't mean that Pryo was better than Gofy VS Oath, just that I was having enough threat density with out more creatures. 
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2014, 05:38:57 pm »

I think Control Oath is favored heavily in G1, but a proper SB plan and MD configuration can make the match up swing back the other way into URg Delver's favor. Tarmogoyf is significantly better than Pyromancer in this match up as well.
Game 1 is about 50/50, and almost always revolves around the threat of Oath resolving.  I would actually call this one of the two matchups where Pyromancer is preferable over goyf, because Abrupt Decay is less relevant.
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2014, 10:09:35 pm »

I think Control Oath is favored heavily in G1, but a proper SB plan and MD configuration can make the match up swing back the other way into URg Delver's favor. Tarmogoyf is significantly better than Pyromancer in this match up as well.
Game 1 is about 50/50, and almost always revolves around the threat of Oath resolving.  I would actually call this one of the two matchups where Pyromancer is preferable over goyf, because Abrupt Decay is less relevant.

Game 1 is 80/20 in Oath's favor if they are competent. Goyf allows you to protect one threat and ride it home quickly. Pyromancer requires you commit to a board and lose at any point they can protect their Oath. AJ Grasso proved this to me through testing the match up extensively.
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2014, 11:26:51 am »

I think Control Oath is favored heavily in G1, but a proper SB plan and MD configuration can make the match up swing back the other way into URg Delver's favor. Tarmogoyf is significantly better than Pyromancer in this match up as well.
Game 1 is about 50/50, and almost always revolves around the threat of Oath resolving.  I would actually call this one of the two matchups where Pyromancer is preferable over goyf, because Abrupt Decay is less relevant.
Game 1 is 80/20 in Oath's favor if they are competent. Goyf allows you to protect one threat and ride it home quickly. Pyromancer requires you commit to a board and lose at any point they can protect their Oath. AJ Grasso proved this to me through testing the match up extensively.

I'm not sure if it's different lists or something, because I've never had it be less than about 50/50 if both players play well.


I think my concerns with Oath are spot on. I tried to be as objective as possible. I explained why it is an up hill battle, with the facts. There is more to say here, but it is obvious things like let the Delver resolve and counter the Cage.............  I think it is at least game 1, 65/35 Oath, Delver.


If the delver player has cages, it is post board, and it does not matter if delver resolves or not, especially since the delver player should probably side a couple of creatures out and ride its card draw to victory.
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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2014, 06:59:48 pm »

With 4 main deck hate artifacts (cages or null rods) and 2-3 moxen you can support Tinker. Anyone see a reason to do, or not do this?
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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2014, 07:38:07 pm »

With 4 main deck hate artifacts (cages or null rods) and 2-3 moxen you can support Tinker. Anyone see a reason to do, or not do this?

It takes a lot more than 6 artifacts to Tinker reliably.  Even if it could be done, it's not a great tactic because it's still a creature/attack phase oriented win so it would succumb to the same types of hate cards as the primary plan of attack (Toxic, Moat, Plowshares). 
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2014, 02:19:49 am »

And also without drains and heavy acceleration, robot would be a dead draw nearly always, while in other decks the robot is sometimes playable mid game.
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