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Author Topic: Beating Delver With Shops  (Read 8652 times)
KIP_NZ
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« on: November 13, 2014, 07:42:27 pm »

Hi All,

Having a small amount of trouble with beating Delver (and Dack) of late.  The fact that a single T1 Delver can go the whole distance has made me lay down my Terra Nova and move across to Martello/Forgemaster Shops.  At the same time I need to be able to fight Oath and Dredge.  I'm currently testing Arena in my SB, I've brought it in 3 times and only seen it once when it wasn't that good, it removed their Delver which was great but as soon as they got Pyro down it was useless as they just made a token and got to select it.

I'm currently running the following:

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Sol Ring
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Tangle Wire

1 Witchbane Orb
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Arena
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Grafdigger's Cage

What are people's thoughts on tools that can fight Delver/Pyro at the same time as not weakening me vs. Dredge and oath?

Edited title for capitalization - Prospero
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 09:33:53 am by Prospero » Logged
JarofFortune
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 09:46:35 pm »

I know it doesnt fit in this particular list, but Smokestack is incredible against Delver if you prevent them from keeping an active pyromancer. Wurmcoil is much better than Hellkite, as is duplicant.
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2014, 10:06:42 pm »

Staff of Nin or Serrated Arrows might be appropriate. I know some people have tried Caltrops for Young Pyromancer. Sideboard Ratchet Bombs can take out Insectile Abberition and Young Pyromancers on 0 (though unfortunately hit Chalice). I don't have much experience with Shops so hopefully Nick or one of the Forino's (or Roland, Will, etc.) would be willing to chime in on the merits of these cards.
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KIP_NZ
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2014, 02:39:44 am »

I like the arrow's idea, that was in a vintage champs T8 a couple years ago IIRC.

I had a moment of enlightenment, I think Sword of Fire and Ice might be exactly what I need. I'm going to test it this weekend!
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2014, 02:48:51 am »

I had a moment of enlightenment, I think Sword of Fire and Ice might be exactly what I need. I'm going to test it this weekend!

Downside of Sword and other equipment is that you need a creature to put it on which can be difficult when your opponent has access to Lightning Bolts and Ancient Grudges.
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2014, 03:45:48 am »

Adrian,

Dismember is good in MUD and it only needs to worry about Misdi. It can also be used to shrink Griselbro'.

Maze of Ith takes care of flying Delver & Griselbro'. Note that Delver & Oath only run 1 Strip Mine at best. I'm pretty certain that you can unsleeve your Arenas.

There is something about Silent Arbiter that is appealing to me. It costs only 4 and it doesn't care about Dack and helps against Dredge too. Whether or not it is the answer you are after to beat Delver? I'm less sure.

Rachet Bomb has been noted and is a solid answer. Be smart about it and don't over-extend unless necessary, ... It is obviouly stronger when paired with Buried Ruin.

I'm personally gonna opt for consistent aggro decks with 4 Black Vise if too many people start durdling around with Gush & Cruise in Australia. In that category, I really like Affinity and James Mackay Aggro Mud style. Strong and reliable decks.

PS: Oh!... and Thespian Stage & Dark Depth performed very well in MUD. Ask Josh Archer who won the Brisbane League with it. See videos here (Remember: UR Delver, Oath and Dredge don't play Wasteland!)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 06:22:19 am by tribet » Logged
enderfall
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2014, 01:22:18 pm »

Triskelion, Staff of Nin, and/or Serrated Arrows help a lot.
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2014, 01:34:08 pm »

I feel Shops should be playing 4 Triskelion before any other 6 drop right now, it's so versatile... Beats Delvers, Dack, Young Pyromancer etc
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KIP_NZ
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2014, 09:21:00 pm »

Adrian,

Dismember is good in MUD and it only needs to worry about Misdi. It can also be used to shrink Griselbro'.

Maze of Ith takes care of flying Delver & Griselbro'. Note that Delver & Oath only run 1 Strip Mine at best. I'm pretty certain that you can unsleeve your Arenas.

There is something about Silent Arbiter that is appealing to me. It costs only 4 and it doesn't care about Dack and helps against Dredge too. Whether or not it is the answer you are after to beat Delver? I'm less sure.

Rachet Bomb has been noted and is a solid answer. Be smart about it and don't over-extend unless necessary, ... It is obviouly stronger when paired with Buried Ruin.

I'm personally gonna opt for consistent aggro decks with 4 Black Vise if too many people start durdling around with Gush & Cruise in Australia. In that category, I really like Affinity and James Mackay Aggro Mud style. Strong and reliable decks.

PS: Oh!... and Thespian Stage & Dark Depth performed very well in MUD. Ask Josh Archer who won the Brisbane League with it. See videos here (Remember: UR Delver, Oath and Dredge don't play Wasteland!)

All good points Thomas, I used to run 3 mazes actually as anti trygon and BSC as well. I might have to investigate this some more. We have vintage next Saturday and I'm expecting delver to be everywhere.

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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2014, 09:28:51 am »

If your sole goal is to stop Delver, Maze does that, but Maze is a passive answer.

The answer that you run for Delver should be reflective of the kind of Shop deck that you're running.  If you're a Stax deck, stopping his Delvers is good, but losing to his tokens (as they negate your Smokestacks and Tangle Wires) won't help.

I've used Ratchet Bomb in the past and think it may have game again.

That said, I think the pillar needs some work right now; I don't think there's a Shop deck that has a great Delver match, and given that Delver is everywhere, that needs to change.  We've been tinkering around the edges of established decks for a while now; I think we need something more significant than that at this point.
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2014, 09:46:34 am »

Delver is an aggressive strategy.  They will play the beatdown role better than anything within the pillar, save perhaps Shop Aggro.  

If we're going to be forced into the control role, I'd want cards that actively worked towards that goal.  If you're on Martello, all you want to be able to do is set up a board where you can activate the Forgemaster once, set up a game-ending threat, and win the game.

Also, six mana answers to one and two mana threats are not answers.
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2014, 01:06:59 pm »

I also echo Ratchet Bomb's inclusion. My sideboard for eternal weekend included 3 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Serrated Arrow, 1 Triskelion in addition to my Dredge / Oath hate.

I was playing Coercive Portal shops with no Null Rod, 12 spheres, Karn and 3 crucibles. My expectation was more BUG and I set my main deck up for BUG and hedged my board more for Oath and delver.

My 2 losses were to the eventual finalist (on delver) and to bomberman. My delver opponent had multiple pieces of power in his openers and I didn't chalice zero as it's pretty much always wrong.

I also brought in my Batterskulls vs. delver ... it's expensive but can create situations where they can't profitably attack or you can keep up with 1 flipped delver. Something like Razormane Masticore might be worth looking at, with a portal or a crucible you can maintain it. It will never die in combat vs. delver and Abysses them.
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2014, 01:40:54 pm »

I play 2 Trikes main, along with Tangle Wire, Smokestack, Chalice (always set to 1 vs. Delver), Lodestone, etc. Sideboard I have 2 Ratchet Bomb, I'm going up to 2 Tabernacle (really incredible vs. Delver), 2-3 Wurmcoil, and probably 1 Batterskull. At Vintage Champs I pretty much preyed on Delver decks all day. The only time I lost to it was round 8 vs. Glackin, and even that match was extremely close.  I think it's a very winnable matchup.
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« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2014, 02:44:04 pm »

I have been running Martello with Ratchet Bombs and Tabernacle in the sideboard, It has helped in the fight against Delver. I also think 2 x trike is a good call when adding Dack into the mix.
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2014, 04:58:06 am »

Well, I'm really disappointed that nobody is cheering for my 4 Black Vise tech against DelverCruise. I'm half serious honestly, I recently randomly traded 3 Beta ones out of nostalgia and all this gives me a really good excuse to sleeve them again!

I follow Prospero: Something needs to change. My view on the thing is to answer threats with threats. They want to be aggro/control? Don't start jamming in 6 mana answers ala Staff of Nin, etc... Look instead toward stuff like SkullClamp, Ravager, ... be more aggro, fast and degenerated, your lands makes 3 so no excuse, draw more cards, etc... and off course nothing prevent you from jamming a bit of tempo/control with Tangle, Waste, ... for a bit of roles flexibilty.

It may be Vintage here but I'm still convince that the old adage is still true: Control<Combo<Aggro<Control.

People thinking Oath is the answer to Delver are doing it wrong.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 05:14:13 am by tribet » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2014, 12:53:57 pm »

I mean Oath is an answer. Keep in mind there's a subsegment of the Vintage player base that will either never own shops or just refuse to not play blue, there's some bias.

How about the issue of mulliganing vs. delver? If the current commitment from the most popular versions of Delver is no wastelands and maybe just Strip Mine -- how does that change a shop players mulligan decision? I know personally I felt looking at my EW notes that maybe I didn't mulligan aggressively enough and my decision to keep hands with Ancient Tomb as my primary mana source hurt me badly.
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2014, 03:01:21 pm »

I have been testing and playing a list for some time. I ran one very similar to the one below at the last BOM (i was expecting lots of legacy-like decks and especially BUG) and got some success with it in the vintage trials. Masticore in SB were basically for BUG decks running null rod so i would put back Triskel instead for Delver decks.  

4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Mountain
2 Expedition Map
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Staff of Nin
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge)
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage (Dredge, MUD, Oath)
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (Dredge, Agro decks)
SB: 3 Razormane Masticore / to be replaced by Triskel (MUD, Legacy like : RUG, BUG, UR, ...)
SB: 2 Witchbane Orb (Oath)
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker (Dack, shaman, etc. but actually floating slots)

Basically it is an old STAX with a few changes. My plan is to be the control deck obviously.
- a very low mana curve for reducing mulligan and get more stability. So welder is less amazing but it easier to cast stuff fairly if he can"t stick to the field.
- ratched bomb instead of smokestack : i want to be able to choose what is destroyed and do it quickly.
- bridge MD are just amazing (in the european meta), near auto-win against MUD and Dredge. a little bit more tricky when oponent plays mana denial.
- staff : shop deck with draw (and filtering with bazaar) is just adictive ! the ping is worth the mana cost (compared to portal). no tension with bridges : if i can play or weld staff i can deal with 2 cards a turn.
- less sphere than usual but there are not that many combo/broken decks in european meta.
- some tension between golem/bridge but not that often if you play smart. A few time you will have an expensive sphere (that will attack when the board is cleared).
- i used to play maze too but i prefer tabernacle because of pyromancer.
- with lots of bolts/decay in oponents decks, barbarian + staff are an alternative kill.

I am not yet satisfied of all slots but in an MUD/Dredge/Legacy-like meta this deck works quite well.

My 10 cents

« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 03:30:32 pm by Albarkhane » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2014, 09:54:49 pm »

I'm going to be honest here, I think that a suite of things like Maze of Ith, Ensnaring Bridge, The Tabernacle at Pendrill Vale, Rishadan Port or Mishra's Factory are going to be your go to for stopping Delver aside from your own base stax artifacts. City of Traitors because sometimes in a heavy field of Delver with so many variations they can play every mana counts, so much so that getting that extra lock piece down can allow you to get your Karn, Lodestone Golem, Triskelion, or Steel Hellkite; Wurmcoil Engine out there as fast as possible. Riding out your generic Lodestone Golem is a fine way to win a game against Delver from a City of Traitors. ( City's better in a field with a Shop presence)

Tabernacle is a really good card against them. Run multiples because it stops Young Pyromancer in it's tracks from winning with tokens. 3-4 of.

Stopping Delver itself is accomplished with things like Maze of Ith specifically because of the Flying.


Delver doesn't like getting it's lands Rishadan Ported because they depend on always having 1 mana open for Treasure Cruise.

Relic of Progenitus is better against Delver than Grafdigger's Cage, but they are equally good depending on if they are going for Tinker or not. ( I might suggest a 4/3 split on stopping them and just don't run Leyline of the Void)

I think a Ghostown Shop deck ( Or whatever Shop deck just chooses to run many lands. Terra Nova I believe it was called) is the ideal Shop deck to face Delvers because of the maindeck Tabernacle,  Maze style play. Blue decks don't come prepared to pay 2 mana for guys each turn,  and then have to have a creature not attack that turn because of a Maze of Ith.

Bazaar of Baghdad Shops functions way better with Uba Mask, and Uba Mask is great against Treasure Cruise provided you get your gameplan going. Null Rod is another good inclusion in this style deck so of course the field presence of Shops need to be accounted for. Maze of Ith-Tabernacle-Ensnaring Bridge plan also makes itself known here.

Tabernacle Shops beats Delver-Pyromancer if you are really concerned about just stopping two creatures.

TLDR: Play Terra Nova Shops
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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2014, 08:37:45 pm »

Quote
Bazaar of Baghdad Shops functions way better with Uba Mask, and Uba Mask is great against Treasure Cruise provided you get your gameplan going. Null Rod is another good inclusion in this style deck so of course the field presence of Shops need to be accounted for. Maze of Ith-Tabernacle-Ensnaring Bridge plan also makes itself known here.

I chose to run Staff of Nim over Uba Mask for two reasons :
- Staff is useful when gameplan goes wrong
- i felt the ping damage was really necessary to get rid of small nasty creatures (dark conf, ...)
But i may be wrong in this choice.

I felt Null rod is not necessary as welder, bridge and crucible make G1 very positive against MUD. Post side it is even better with cage. More over, IMHO expedition map is a key card of the deck.
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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2014, 12:24:41 am »

Terra Nova has a tough Delver match up and over boarding does not help enough. Martello Shops has a good chance to win vs Delver, and Oath/Dredge, if you board right and remember your fundamentals. Prospero pointed out, Martello wins by setting up a board position where you can resolve and activate a Forgemaster. If done correctly, one Forgemaster activation usually leads to a win.     

This is the list I am currently running, which is Raffaele Forino's 3rd place list from the N.Y.S.E 20 with a few small changes.  

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland

I exchanged a Phyrexian Metamorph to the board and a Wurmcoil Engine main. I did this because I wanted the option of Wurmcoil in my Forgemaster toolbox game 1.

SB:

2 Dismember
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Duplicant
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
0 Witchabane Orb
0 Wurmcoil Engine

I wanted to have more Dismember in the board but without having consistent life gain, more than two was a liability. The one Sphere Of Resistance was going to get the axe, but it is huge vs Delver. I wish I had room for one more Tabernacle but the SB is tight. I personally like to have a second Steel Hellkite in the board because there are board states, in a few match ups, where if the first Hellkite dies, it becomes almost impossible to win without the second. I completely removed the second Wurmcoil and Witchabane Orb from the board. I took this approach because in testing Wurmcoil was being my Forgemaster target less than 5-10% of the time. It made sense only having 1 because of the 4 other ways to cheat Wurmcoil on the board.  I took out the Witchabane Orb because I wanted to hedge my bets on Delver/Dredge with Tabernacle, instead of on Witchabane for Oath and TPS.

This is how I board vs Delver. I used to board out all my Revokers but because of Dack Fayden, Workshop decks cannot do that any more. Do not take out thorns!!!. Thorn is a necessary evil in this match up because Delver wants to string together spells.  Thorn/Thorn/Forgemaster is good vs Delver. (Or any deck)

-Out-
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Duplicant
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Mox Pearl or 1 Mana Crypt

-In-
2 Dismember
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Steel Hellkite
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 01:33:10 pm by jyuj » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2015, 06:57:01 pm »

Now that Treasure Cruise is restricted I expect this mu to be improved. I think the terra nova lists are still behind a little bit, but Martello has to be in better shape. I really like the 4/4/4 Revoker/Lodestone/Forgemaster 2 metamorph 1/1/1/1 dup/hellkite/titan/wurm. That looks solid and seems to curve ok. I think Ill switch to that and get so e games in.
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