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Author Topic: B/U Vault-Cruise  (Read 6640 times)
jamestosetti
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« on: November 20, 2014, 10:37:23 pm »

Treasure Cruise has allowed for a more flexible Time Vault build. This deck actually takes play styles that are used with other archetypes, and uses them to outplay other decks. Nights Whisper, Preordain, and Intuition sculpt your hand while obtaining virtual card advantage. At the same time the grave yard is also being prepared to start the Treasure Cruise draw engine. The deck typically wants to do these things until the game comes to a point where the opponent has little mana available, or not enough cards to win a counter war. When this stage is reached the deck becomes very explosive. You would be surprised how many times you can actually play Treasure Cruise in one turn, and how many cards you can draw with little trouble. It is very difficult even for a deck like Rug Delver to keep pace with this strategy. The deck is very versatile because of cards like Sensei's Divining Top, Gush, various tutors, and the typical plays such as Tinker Colossus, or Imperial Seal into a needed card. The deck is very fun because of the strategy involved.

Some of the slots can easily be adjusted to the pilot's needs. This is essentially a typical Vault combo deck with a new draw engine. Some of its strengths come from enabling older, nearly out-of-date cards to become very useful again. Intuition, Thirst for Knowledge, and Night's Whisper are very strong cards for this strategy. Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Tezzeret, or even Talrand, Sky Summoner could be incorporated. Inkwell Leviathan or Sphinx of the Steel Wind are also substitutes for Blightsteel Colossus. I chose Blightsteel Colossus because it can end the Delver match faster than Leviathan, and the same could be said for the Dredge match. One reason that I really like this deck is that the Mud matchup does not seem overly difficult to play out. The s/b is built to be strong against Oath, Dredge, and Shops.

2 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
3 Gush
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Flusterstorm
1 Intuition
2 Misdirection
3 Mental Misstep
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Night's Whisper
1 Imperial Seal
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ponder
1 Mana Drain

SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Steel Sabotage
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 10:51:04 pm by jamestosetti » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2014, 11:14:40 pm »

I kind of think you're going to get blown out by a more focused Cruise deck. Your opening hands look like they're clogged by Gushes into nothing, hands of too many Moxen and not enough 1 for 1's, or hands without a lot of usable mana.

I do like the idea of KeyVaulting but you might need more focus. What do you want your opening hands to look like? TV+Key is really nice when you have 5 Ancestrals because you just draw cards and then suddenly win. So you should decide what you want the part before you start drawing 3 bones for 1 mana to look like.

Persoanlly I like a good mix of ridiculous 1-for-1s like Red/Pyroblast or Strips/Wastes, and alternate engines like Notion Thief, Dack, and Burning Wish. You gotta be careful in construction with the latter though because it is a tempo loss.

Duresses and Thoughtseizes might be really good if you stick to black. Gitaxian Probe is slowly growing on me (Brian Kelly strikes again), though mulliganing is still problematic (and I see you're running two!).

The other thing I really like is Snapcaster. There is tremendous synergy between SCM and Cruise because they are both turbocharged by the 1-for-1ing you are doing. It basically doesn't really matter than you're RFGing from your yard, you always have extra cards.

Final word of suggestion: run 2 more fetchlands. A 14- or 15-land manabase is fine, the last thing you want to do when you have the best draw engine is get greedy with your mana and lose winnable games.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2014, 11:33:19 pm »

What do you mean by more focused? I understand the potential for going to one extreme or another, but when that is the case, there is generally some sacrifice in the form of a matchup, and it is usually Mud. I don't know if you were using a sample hand generator, but I haven't run into this problematic opener, or bad mulligan problem. If you look at the Death's Shadow deck I made before Treasure Cruise was printed, you will notice similarities. From the experience I have with this deck, it does not face the problems other decks face in terms of really focused plays. I also have a ton of experience with decks like ANT and TPS, and I also used to play Vault combo regularly. The win generally comes from "going off", and a learned skill of estimating the probability of certain cards being the opponents hand really comes in useful. Educated guesses about the potential for walking into counters is important in this game.  Of the decks I have made, this one is probably the most user friendly. The Death's Shadow deck was good for me before these new cards were printed, but even I do not think it is good anymore.

I will also make decks just so they can be realized in the meta game. I do think this deck is strong enough to be a contender in any Vintage tournament at the moment. I also think it is a necessary piece of the meta that other decks should expect to face. I also like it because it is basically tailor made for my play style. It feels like the decks that used to run four Thirst for Knowledge and four Accumulated Knowledge in combination with Intuition.

I almost forgot to mention that this deck doesn't look to bring two islands back to the hand just to gush in hopes of playing some random spell. This is what happens in the part of the game where critical mass has come into play, but it does not use Gush in the same way Delver uses Gush. Gush is used in concert with other cards here.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 07:49:09 pm by jamestosetti » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2014, 12:22:52 am »

No mulligan problems? That seems mathematically impossible. I have played enough of these types of decks with the quantities of card types you present, to know that mulliganing is a huge issue. And yoru MUD matchup must be horrendous (is it?) without the payoff having access to the insane targeted-against-control staples.

As far as what I mean by needing more focus, see earlier post about Gushing into nothing as an example. I also see way too many tutors and not really a lot of good things to do with them. Remember, your tutored-for Ancestrals aren't doing anything more than anybody else's naturally drawn Delvecestrals, and your Tinker is super-weak in the face of a single Dack.

Your deck has to do something better than the other decks. I don't think it Key-Vaults better because KV is under structural attack due to the presence of Dack in the metagame. So you have to treat Key-Vault as a storm-type finisher to your focused all-engine deck. But you don't cruise better than Delver. Gush baffles me because there's not a whole lot to cast proactively with it, and your reactive spells that are castable off a single Island are weak (e.g. Spell Pierce)

Anyways. Just my two cents. You should take your deck in whatever direction you want - I was mostly pointing out that I can't see that coherent direction from the deck list.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2014, 12:37:12 am »

No mulligan problems? That seems mathematically impossible. I have played enough of these types of decks with the quantities of card types you present, to know that mulliganing is a huge issue. And yoru MUD matchup must be horrendous (is it?) without the payoff having access to the insane targeted-against-control staples.

As far as what I mean by needing more focus, see earlier post about Gushing into nothing as an example. I also see way too many tutors and not really a lot of good things to do with them. Remember, your tutored-for Ancestrals aren't doing anything more than anybody else's naturally drawn Delvecestrals, and your Tinker is super-weak in the face of a single Dack.

Your deck has to do something better than the other decks. I don't think it Key-Vaults better because KV is under structural attack due to the presence of Dack in the metagame. So you have to treat Key-Vault as a storm-type finisher to your focused all-engine deck. But you don't cruise better than Delver. Gush baffles me because there's not a whole lot to cast proactively with it, and your reactive spells that are castable off a single Island are weak (e.g. Spell Pierce)

Anyways. Just my two cents. You should take your deck in whatever direction you want - I was mostly pointing out that I can't see that coherent direction from the deck list.

I've also had the mindset that I do not need to fear cards that are only included as one-ofs. In my opinion Dack Fayden is nearly unplayable in Vintage. I don't know if my deck has do something better than another deck because the goal is to do something differently than other decks. I am also one for playing out questionable matches to get real data to work with. I am not very big on proving something to show someone up. I am really interested in playing some matches on cockatrice with you if you are willing to do that.

As far as criticism goes though, most decks could be criticized harshly in this meta. Decks can lose to plain luck due to the nature of the format and the inclusion or exclusion of one card. If a deck is functional, can compete with the best decks, and does something consistently, doesn't that make it a worthwhile deck?
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2014, 12:47:36 am »

I've also had the mindset that I do not need to fear cards that are only included as one-ofs. In my opinion Dack Fayden is nearly unplayable in Vintage. I don't know if my deck has do something better than another deck because the goal is to do something differently than other decks. I am also one for playing out questionable matches to get real data to work with. I am not very big on proving something to show someone up. I am really interested in playing some matches on cockatrice with you if you are willing to do that.

As far as criticism goes though, most decks could be criticized harshly in this meta. Decks can lose to plain luck due to the nature of the format and the inclusion or exclusion of one card. If a deck is functional, can compete with the best decks, and does something consistently, doesn't that make it a worthwhile deck?

I can confidently inform you that your opinion on Dack is incorrect. How good it is is another discussion (I happen to think from extensive experience that it is absurdly powerful), but sheer data suggests it is so extremely playable and a common presence on the opposing side of the table.

I am not criticizing your deck, but hoping to give solid advice based on shared experience. I don't believe in its current form that it can compete with the best decks, but I believe the idea is worth pursuing.

If you do not want advice and discussion, but instead praise, then a.) I don't believe the deck list merits that, and b.) the message board format does not support wish very well.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2014, 01:42:06 am »

Dack is playable, but it is also not making such a difference that I am afraid of Dack Fayden hitting the board. Dack is cool. I'm not worried that you think this deck cannot beat the best decks because I've been doing it since I made this deck.
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2014, 02:01:29 am »

I see. You were not interested in discussion.

That's really too bad.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2014, 02:08:13 am »

If something is on your mind let us know. The thread is not just for me to answer questions. It seems this deck is not to your liking, and that is ok. I am just saying that what you have mentioned about this deck has not been what I have experienced with it. The Time Vault package in combination with tutors in almost any build yields enough success to be something to think about, let alone something that has thought put into it. I am willing to play matches with you or someone else to learn more about its matchups.
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2014, 04:53:41 am »

Quote from: jamestosetti
I've also had the mindset that I do not need to fear cards that are only included as one-ofs. In my opinion Dack Fayden is nearly unplayable in Vintage.

So you are not afraid of your opponents cards like Ancestral Recall, Yawgmoth's will, Tinker, Time Vault or Yawgmoth's bargain ?

Dack is unplayable in vintage? I suggest you look no further than tournament results forum and skim through tournaments reports since Conspiracy was printed, I'm pretty confident there is more than enough data for anyone to agree that Dack is at bare minimum a vintage playable card. And if you compared the number total dacks and total jaces my guess is that they would be pretty close, especially now that Jace has become somewhat marginalized by delver decks who happen to play Dack.

How can you say it's unplayable, it's an extremely versatile card that can perform a number of different roles whether it be mana denial by stealing moxen, control by answering problematic artifacts, or Card Selection engine with its looting ability (which are all extremely relevant in Vintage). And this is not even taking into consideration his strong synergy with cards like Crucible of worlds, Goblin Welder, Notion thief, Gush, Treasure cruise, Ancient grudge.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 05:03:55 am by WhiteLotus » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2014, 05:02:09 am »

The deck looks nice, it's hard to tell how it actually feels playing it, here are my observations so far:

1) Have you concidered playing Fastbond and going up to 4 Gushes? It seems like it would fit nicely into deck with Gushes and multiple tutors anyways. It would certainly increase the power level of the deck.

2) Assuming your Intuition piles are either Gushes or Cruises, I don't see any way to replay those cards other then Yawg will. So after resolving Intuition, you will most likely only play 1 Gush or 1 Cruise for the rest of the game, depending on what you went for with Intuition (or do you setup your piles differently?). Aren't you essentially cutting your draw engine this way? I believe Intuition piles should contain either 3 cards that are likely to win you the game (like Oath), or 3 cards that you can interact with after they are put into graveyard (like Accumulated Knowladge). I see that it enables Cruise a bit faster, but the sacrifice to do so seems not to be worth it in this case.

3) Playing in current meta, I'd probably go up to 4 Missteps. Especially when you have lots of important 1cc spells (Ancestral, all tutors, Top, Key as your win condition) and you need to protect them against opponent's Missteps.

4) Playing 1 Drain feels a bit random, I'd concider either cutting it or go up to 2-3 to make it feel like a mana drain deck. You have lots of cards that would make use of Drain's mana nicely anyways.

5) I'd concider adding Gifts + Regrowth. This is one of the best ways to assemble Key/Vault and Regrowth would help with Intuition piles too. Lets say you have Key in play just sitting there (happens pretty often right?). Well, now your Intuition is a game winning spell, because you will go for Yawg Will, Vault, Regrowth. Obviously this works in all combinations.

6) I'd concider some removal spells or at least some bounce spells maindeck, because you will be under lots of pressure quickly against aggro based decks that can resolve their threats in first few turns (like Young Pyromancer). All that life loss between Missteps, Whispers, Seal, Vamp and Probe will just add up to that.

7) I think your lists is missing 2 Moxen and Mana Crypt. I'd definitely play Crypt with Tinker, Thirst, Whispers, Intuition, etc.

I quite like 2 Misdirections (good defense vs Abrupt Decay).
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2014, 05:02:18 am »

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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2014, 08:55:24 am »

Have you tested Dig Through Time in place of Treasure Cruise? Dig is insane for putting combos together as well as protecting them.
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2014, 09:46:14 am »

Have you tested Dig Through Time in place of Treasure Cruise? Dig is insane for putting combos together as well as protecting them.

My same thought, imho most 1 card or 2 cards combo decks should prefer DTT over TC. Both DTT are crap if countered, and great if they resolve. But if DTT resolve in opponent's turn it opens space to a win next turn, after untapping all mana sources.


Nevertheless, this seems a worse approach than Tezzerator, turboTezz or so. While the drawing engine is far better, the threat density is far lower. There are just 2 win conditions that suffer from lots of hate, no removal (a single revoker may cause havoc, not talking about null rod) and less acceleration than tezz decks. Quite risky in these times imho.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2014, 10:44:48 am »

I should have said Dack is situational, and I would only prefer to play it in a Shop and Vault heavy meta. I will answer the rest of those replies tonight after I drive home from school.
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John Cox
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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2014, 02:38:39 pm »

I'm playing a similar list with 4 tezz and 3 Deathrite shaman, this looks like a good place to be in vintage right now.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2014, 09:32:05 pm »

The deck looks nice, it's hard to tell how it actually feels playing it, here are my observations so far:

1) Have you concidered playing Fastbond and going up to 4 Gushes? It seems like it would fit nicely into deck with Gushes and multiple tutors anyways. It would certainly increase the power level of the deck.

2) Assuming your Intuition piles are either Gushes or Cruises, I don't see any way to replay those cards other then Yawg will. So after resolving Intuition, you will most likely only play 1 Gush or 1 Cruise for the rest of the game, depending on what you went for with Intuition (or do you setup your piles differently?). Aren't you essentially cutting your draw engine this way? I believe Intuition piles should contain either 3 cards that are likely to win you the game (like Oath), or 3 cards that you can interact with after they are put into graveyard (like Accumulated Knowladge). I see that it enables Cruise a bit faster, but the sacrifice to do so seems not to be worth it in this case.

3) Playing in current meta, I'd probably go up to 4 Missteps. Especially when you have lots of important 1cc spells (Ancestral, all tutors, Top, Key as your win condition) and you need to protect them against opponent's Missteps.

4) Playing 1 Drain feels a bit random, I'd concider either cutting it or go up to 2-3 to make it feel like a mana drain deck. You have lots of cards that would make use of Drain's mana nicely anyways.

5) I'd concider adding Gifts + Regrowth. This is one of the best ways to assemble Key/Vault and Regrowth would help with Intuition piles too. Lets say you have Key in play just sitting there (happens pretty often right?). Well, now your Intuition is a game winning spell, because you will go for Yawg Will, Vault, Regrowth. Obviously this works in all combinations.

6) I'd concider some removal spells or at least some bounce spells maindeck, because you will be under lots of pressure quickly against aggro based decks that can resolve their threats in first few turns (like Young Pyromancer). All that life loss between Missteps, Whispers, Seal, Vamp and Probe will just add up to that.

7) I think your lists is missing 2 Moxen and Mana Crypt. I'd definitely play Crypt with Tinker, Thirst, Whispers, Intuition, etc.

I quite like 2 Misdirections (good defense vs Abrupt Decay).

Intuition piles consisting of Treasure Cruise is a last resort thing to draw cards. I think I have done that one time. But in general, no, Intuition for three Treasure Cruise would basically eliminate your draw engine. Intuition can be used to grab three forces, or any pile of three that can tip the game in your favor. I think my most common pile so far has been three moxes to have an artifact for Tinker.

I am fairly certain that there are around 5 to 6 flex spots in this deck. The spots will definitely be determined by your meta. If the meta is more Shop heavy an Abrupt Decay, or Hurkyl's Recall could be the solution. In that case another Tropical Island should be in the main. Where I play  this the build I would use, but I accept this as an archetype, so there can be substantial changes to the deck and play style while still being a very good deck. I have considered the Fastbond, and or Tendrils package, and I do think that is an option, but that is not my strongest style for certain. I never could master Gush Tendrils. I think that would take more time. I think if the deck were to want to increase the mana curve, then fewer gushes should be included, and more artifact mana. There are a number of ways to reach different objectives.

I have thought about Dig Through Time, and that is an option. I think a couple more mana slots should be included for that card, maybe Lotus Petal, or even Lion's Eye Diamond could be included in certain builds. When I decided to try out Treasure Cruise I quickly found that it will be typical to be in a situation where you have a lot of cards in the graveyard, but only one blue mana up. My mana base was designed to function this way. If Dig Through Time is used, a deck structure that allows for more mana sources to remain on the board may be suitable. I think there is a whole lot of room for innovation in this archetype. If I could find the room for one more card I would want to play with, or if the meta game were such that it were the correct option, I would include a Chain of Vapor in the main deck. There is some serious synergy with what my build is trying to do.

I do think Treasure Cruise has improved the format as a whole. If I have more than one good option to play against Mud I am happy enough. It hasn't been often that while playing Vintage something has been printed that really changed it in a way that made it more fun to play. I also think that some more new options may show up after Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time have been around for a while. I will mess around with some different builds using Dig Through Time, and Tezz to see what I can come up with. Also, John Cox, I would really be interested in seeing your list if you are willing to post it here. Some of my toughest matchups are coming from Vault Key combo right now.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 09:57:54 pm by jamestosetti » Logged
John Cox
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2014, 01:01:11 am »


I would really be interested in seeing you list if you are willing to post it here. Some of my toughest matchups are coming from Vault Key combo right now.

The main draw of DRT is a blocker and to make the workshop match better.

This is what I have sleeved.
1 strip mine
3 Island
1 swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 mana crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Demonic Tutor
4 Preordain
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
4 Gush
1 duress
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Flusterstorm
2 Misdirection
3 Mental Misstep
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ponder
4 tezzeret the seeker
3 deathrite shaman
1 hurkyl's recall
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2014, 02:29:01 pm »

I've tried Dig Through Time in a Drain build. The deck is good, but I would have to put much more time into that type of deck to optimize it. The other problem is Rug Delver's counter package. The can afford to play a lot of blanks against Mud to maximize the deck's value against blue based decks.

I was really thinking about the original list I posted, and how to account for the Delver counter package as well as variation in their main deck. My games had been played when I was on the verge of just falling asleep, and were down to the wire, but I am on break this week, so I can really focus on this, and a couple other matchups to see if anything needs changed.

I am going to try using two Mana Drains, and 4 Mental Missteps. I cut one Night's Whisper (this card has been nothing but awesome), and one Spell Peirce. The Night's Whisper leads to blowouts against decks that this deck is capable of outplaying, and this deck would rather play a waiting game. Mana Drain is such a bomb in this deck. The fourth Mental Misstep should be a good replacement in this meta not only for the  Delver match, but also for decks running four Missteps. The rationalization behind this change is that I was losing one drop battles and counter wars, sometimes because I did not have the one mana for a Spell Pierce, and I do not want to sacrifice my one drop bombs. The solution is to maximize the natural strategy of waiting for the right time with another Mana Drain, while increasing the chances I can finish my dedicated plays by adding another Misstep.

Hopefully this works out. It would be nice to see something other than Delver, Mud, and Oath in every top 8. Also, if new decks can be added to the more dominant decks, then new decks can also be developed. Its my opinion that more, really good decks make a better meta than a few awesome decks, and the really mediocre decks that try to play too.

Edit: I almost forgot to add: +1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind, -1 Toxic Deluge; -4 Leyline of the Void, +2 Yixlid Jailers, +2 Pithing Needle in the s/b. Dredge is able to find the right cards in a reliable way, so this diversified s/b strategy is necessary. Also the Sphinx is something I am going to try against Rug Delver, and possibly decks that run Dack Fayden.

Edit: 1 Toxic Deluge -1 Nights Whisper, +1 Abrupt Decay, -1 of the Dispels.  I will post an updated list tomorrow.

Edit: This deck also needs tested against Shops more. I haven't had the chance to play against Rug Delver using Duress yet. I did increase the land count here as well.

2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mana Vault

1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Duress

1 Time Walk
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
3 Gush
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
4 Mental Misstep
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Spell Pierce
1 Tinker
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ponder
1 Mana Drain


SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 11:44:35 pm by jamestosetti » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2014, 02:57:37 pm »

i've been working along these same lines with a deck i've been calling Cruise City Vault. i just got into vintage and liked the steel/angel city vault lists but hated their reliance on draw sevens. so i plugged in a TC engine instead and here we are.

http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/18460#260370
6. Joshua Patrick - Dack/Welder/Cruise Control
3 Dack Fayden
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Goblin Welder
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Time Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
3 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Mental Misstep
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Spell Pierce
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Mana Drain
1 Time Walk
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Thoughtcast
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vandalblast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Electrickery

i top 8'd having never played vintage before in my life purely on the back how many cards you see with this list.
it was a haphazard list with a godawful sb though so here's where i'm at with the list now:
http://www.mtgpulse.com/showdeckbuilder/dxm80m42fc

1 Tezz the Seeker
3 Dack Fayden

2 Goblin Welder  
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind  

1 Black Lotus    
1 Mox Jet    
1 Mox Sapphire    
1 Mox Ruby      
4 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt  
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring    
1 Time Vault  
1 Voltaic Key  

4 Force of Will  
2 Misdirection    
3 Mental Misstep  
1 Mystical Tutor  
1 Spell Pierce    
1 Ancestral Recall  
1 Vampiric Tutor  
1 Brainstorm  
1 Hurkyl's Recall  
2 Mana Drain  

1 Imperial Seal
1 Time Walk    
1 Demonic Tutor      
1 Tinker    
3 Treasure Cruise  
4 Thoughtcast  
1 Yawgmoth's Will    

4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolarian Academy


i'll talk a bit about some of the advantages i think this build has

One reason that I really like this deck is that the Mud matchup does not seem overly difficult to play out
now imagine you have 3 dack faydens and 2 goblin welders

opening hands look like they're clogged by Gushes into nothing, hands of too many Moxen and not enough 1 for 1's, or hands without a lot of usable mana.
the opal/thoughtcast build actually addresses these issues imo.
i like gush and i fully acknowledge that it's outright busted in vintage, but it can be slow. usually gushing becomes a winning proposition on turn 3 when it generates +1 mana and +2 cards, but a thoughtcast can be brazenly fired off on turn 2 (sometimes even 1) and still net you two cards and a virtual mana for a later TC.

you don't cruise better than Delver.
i would argue this isn't true anymore once you have a dack spitting cards into your yard

Have you tested Dig Through Time in place of Treasure Cruise? Dig is insane for putting combos together as well as protecting them.
i'm still toying with trying out DTT as well, but it seems to me that this deck just really enjoys the raw numbers in hand to sculpt with dack.
i could certainly be wrong though, and in a build without dack i would likely lean DTT


Nevertheless, this seems a worse approach than Tezzerator, turboTezz or so..... no removal (a single revoker may cause havoc, not talking about null rod) and less acceleration than tezz decks.
welder, dack, and access to ancient grudge off mox opal are helpful on this front imo

I cut one Night's Whisper (this card has been nothing but awesome)...... Night's Whisper leads to blowouts against decks that this deck is capable of outplaying, and this deck would rather play a waiting game.
let me *ahem* gush some more about thoughtcast.
not only do you get to save the life which is increasingly important against pyromancers, but it also (usually) only costs a blue, leaving more mana up for counters. it's also a nice fringe benefit to reap the same rewards again on a yawg will turn.
thoughtcast also gives no shits about a sphere of resistance! (unless i'm mistaken)
oh yeah....and it removes to FoW ; -)


I was losing one drop battles and counter wars, sometimes because I did not have the one mana for a Spell Pierce
i'm actually trying to work in a second spell pierce because when you have mox opals this tends to be less of a problem. (and as mentioned the thoughtcasts kinda help here too)

misc advantages:
tolarian academy wins games
welder gives you additional resiliency to attacks on your V/K
sometimes you play just a bloodstained mire on turn one and pass and opponent is likely stumped as to what you're playing
more explosive overall. sometimes you just shit manafacts on the field and start firing thoughtcasts
opal lends flexibility. cards of any color can be accommodated in the future with little change to the mana.


i'm gonna expand on one thing real quick
In my opinion Dack Fayden is nearly unplayable in Vintage.
i know this is going to catch me some flack, but i think dack fayden is the best planeswalker in vintage  (as of the minute they printed these delve cards)
let me recap everything he's doing for this deck
1. boosting the matchup against anyone hoping to kill you with blightsteels or lodestone golems
2. fueling your delve pile like you wouldn't believe
3. boosting the power of your vamp/mystical/seal by allowing you to draw it for free on that turn (a trick he stole from gush)
4. sculpting your hand by either grabbing you more TCs or thoughtcasts, or eliminating blanks off the TC/thoughtcast you just played
[edit:  eliminate is the wrong word. he converts the blanks into delve fodder. i really can't reiterate enough how strong he is with TC/DTT]
5. digging for V/K (or tinker, w/e)
6. protecting your robot from opposing dacks (kinda)
7. being great to pitch to FoW/Misdirection/dack looting, since you generally only need 1 and have 3 to find
8. mising you wins because he's the greatest thief in the gd multiverse and sometimes opponent just reeeeally needed that mana rock or w/e and are now sunk without it.
edit (forgot one!): 9: running interference against revoker! they almost have to name dack with the first one to not lose, that's a revoker not set to time vault/mox.
(forgot another one!) 10: emergency backup win con. if for some reason sphinx or tezzerret can't do it once you're taking all the turns, just start pointing the dack at them until they're out of cards)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 04:48:01 pm by VibeBox » Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
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« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2014, 04:03:40 pm »

VibeBox:

Your list is intriguing, and I agree on all your responses to my poiints.

A couple things from your list to highlight:
- The Opal/Thoughtcast package, obviously busted in a deck that just wants to Key-Vault fast.
- The Force/Misstep/MisD trifecta, also insane given you just want to spend all your mana doing stuff. I'd probably go as far as to say that your Drains could become more free counters or at least Pyroblasts (yes they get hit by Missteps, but you have your own and they are just more synergistic in the Cruise+Dack shell).

I've gone a slightly different direction with the Dack + Welder sub-engine and Cruise, but I must chime in with full agreement on this point you made - Dack is the best planeswalker in Vintage right now.

Have you tried 4 Dack? IMO it is a truly insane choice in a lot of contexts, even when you don't have Cruise in hand or if is shut down by opposing Crypt/Nihil.

A couple more corner-case advantages of Dack:
- if you run Pyroblasts, the -6 actually gives you additional ways to actually deal the final point of damage, which is maybe 1% relevant in these non-Pyromancer builds.
- it is red! You may actually run enough red cards to enable Cave-In. I'll leave you to figure out how that is used... Wink
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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2014, 04:28:43 pm »

I'd probably go as far as to say that your Drains could become more free counters or at least Pyroblasts
i'm torn on this. i like the potential for mana drain to accel me into an early tezz with counter backup or a TC. otoh you have a point and there are certainly times this deck has too much mana and just wants stuff to do. (as you can see i cut a strand for an opal and the other for a spell)
ultimately just dont think i'm going to know whether the drains are right until i'm either able to play more with the deck. i could easily see them getting cut for some combination of pyroblast, gush, dtt, mental misstep, and/or flusterstorm


Have you tried 4 Dack?
no. i'm sure it would be fine, he'll basically never fail you even if it's just to volunteer to be FoW fodder. there's so little room in the list though and i already want all of the above mentioned cards in so it's just hard to justify a 4th when the deck is already good at finding one
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 04:47:18 pm by VibeBox » Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
VibeBox
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« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2014, 04:32:15 pm »

oops
i can't delete this accidental post apparently?
oh well. mod do it, or don't. w/e
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 04:44:49 pm by VibeBox » Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2014, 12:40:38 am »

I like the deck a lot VibeBox. I don't know if you have looked in the TPS thread, but I have a hybrid list posted in there. It is a Vault Key Storm Hybrid, that is more similar this list than your list is similar to the original list I posted. It is difficult to compare two decks that are not remotely the same. I think your list would probably be appreciated in the Control Slaver thread, or something more closely related. I basically scrapped this list because it was playing more like Gush Storm, and did not run the necessary amount of artifacts to compete with Shops.

I do like your deck though. I have been playing against lists that are similar to yours, but they run the twister effects as well as Dark Confidants. I basically combined two Gush lists, and gave it Mana Vault and Mana Crypt and it is phenomenal. There are also ideas thrown in from decks that were very successful in the past such as GWSx.

Congratulations on your finish VibeBox.
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