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Author Topic: UWb Vault Cruise  (Read 2203 times)
jamestosetti
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« on: November 23, 2014, 05:01:25 pm »

After working on UW Combo/Control, I realized the decks shortcomings. It was almost like an "if you can't beat'em, join'em" type of feeling. I was discussing how Modern and Legacy concepts also apply to other formats, and it dawned on me. I need to use Dispel to trump the instant packages of other decks. White also gives me access to four Enlightened Tutors! White also gives the deck access to Balance if you choose to play it. One Underground Sea, and one Lotus Petal allow you to cast the Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and Yawgmoth's Will.

I am still at odds over the best strategy to combat Mud. Four Disenchants give the deck redundancy against Mud, Oath, and other Vault Combo decks. Pithing Needle Can be used to stop Planeswalkers, or Bazaars. I haven't exhaustively tested this yet, but it is very similar to BU Vault Cruise except this deck can find the combo for less mana. Both decks have access to Dispel, and Gush, so the combo becomes easier to assemble, and protect. Here is the list:

4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
2 Misdirection
1 Flusterstorm
1 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
3 Dispel
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Gush
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Mana Drain
1 Time Walk

4 Enlightened Tutor

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Steel Sabotage
SB: 1 Strip Mine
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb


Edit: 2 Enlightened Tutors should be cut for 1 Vampiric Tutor and 1 Demonic Tutor. 1 Tundra should be replaced with 1 Underground Sea.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 07:25:19 pm by jamestosetti » Logged
msg67183
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 05:12:39 pm »

After working on UW Combo/Control, I realized the decks shortcomings. It was almost like an "if you can't beat'em, join'em" type of feeling. I was discussing how Modern and Legacy concepts also apply to other formats, and it dawned on me. I need to use Dispel to trump the instant packages of other decks. White also gives me access to four Enlightened Tutors! White also gives the deck access to Balance if you choose to play it. One Underground Sea, and one Lotus Petal allow you to cast the Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and Yawgmoth's Will.

I am still at odds over the best strategy to combat Mud. Four Disenchants give the deck redundancy against Mud, Oath, and other Vault Combo decks. Pithing Needle Can be used to stop Planeswalkers, or Bazaars. I haven't exhaustively tested this yet, but it is very similar to BU Vault Cruise except this deck can find the combo for less mana. Both decks have access to Dispel, and Gush, so the combo becomes easier to assemble, and protect. Here is the list:

4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
2 Misdirection
1 Flusterstorm
1 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
3 Dispel
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Gush
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Mana Drain
1 Time Walk

4 Enlightened Tutor

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Steel Sabotage
SB: 1 Strip Mine
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb




I feel Dispel is WAY too narrow! Very interesting nonetheless
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 05:21:14 pm »

I agree, Dispel is a narrow card. Our meta game is getting less Diverse at the moment because of ambitious perspectives on existing archetypes. This causes a narrow card like Dispel to possibly make the cut. This deck is very fun to play. I can't wait for the testing. If Shops is already getting pushed to the side, then there is room for a card like this. I think that Vintage is going to be in chaos while everyone discovers new possibilities. After more tournaments, players might be forced to change there decks somewhat, and then all of the new ideas can start to really come into play.
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2014, 05:30:49 pm »

James, a couple items of advice, if you are actually open to hearing them:

1.) Dispel is a substandard option. Maximizing Flusterstorm count is much better. Even then, consider the key threats you face, and ask yourself if interacting with the instants and sorceries in the opposition builds helps you significantly.

2.) Your manabase is still so questionable. You must consider that your build is fairly clunky and with a number of dead cards - mulligans will occur frequently, and as a general rule the less mana your deck has the crappier it will mulligan. You are not Delver, don't play to strengths you don't possess.

Aside: you are likely getting crushed by Shops by virtue of manabase weakness alone. Consider if that is acceptable - Shops are a Vintage fixture, and the usual claim that "my metagame doesn't have Shops" is often code for "I don't have a very good metagame".

3.) The list still really lacks focus. Also, why did you add YawgWill? (Silly answers like "it wins the game duh" will be promptly struck down and discarded).

What's the core game plan here? it is so all over the place. I advocate for the deployment of different attack vectors but they have to a.) Give you some resiliency to hate and opposition, and b.) Not actively bump into each other.

Will is just out of place, and gives you little (if any) additional resiliency. Gush is just out of place without the context of a cheap non-commital threat like Delver. If you want an effect like that, you have SFM in your colors. That might make you reconsider the use of Enlightened Tutor which is just a stone-cold blank in many scenarios.

I do highly approve of the switch to Sphinx. That helps you fight Dack, and while you are cold to Containment Priests, your primary KeyVault victory condition is not.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2014, 05:43:44 pm »

James, a couple items of advice, if you are actually open to hearing them:

1.) Dispel is a substandard option. Maximizing Flusterstorm count is much better. Even then, consider the key threats you face, and ask yourself if interacting with the instants and sorceries in the opposition builds helps you significantly.

2.) Your manabase is still so questionable. You must consider that your build is fairly clunky and with a number of dead cards - mulligans will occur frequently, and as a general rule the less mana your deck has the crappier it will mulligan. You are not Delver, don't play to strengths you don't possess.

Aside: you are likely getting crushed by Shops by virtue of manabase weakness alone. Consider if that is acceptable - Shops are a Vintage fixture, and the usual claim that "my metagame doesn't have Shops" is often code for "I don't have a very good metagame".

3.) The list still really lacks focus. Also, why did you add YawgWill? (Silly answers like "it wins the game duh" will be promptly struck down and discarded).

What's the core game plan here? it is so all over the place. I advocate for the deployment of different attack vectors but they have to a.) Give you some resiliency to hate and opposition, and b.) Not actively bump into each other.

Will is just out of place, and gives you little (if any) additional resiliency. Gush is just out of place without the context of a cheap non-commital threat like Delver. If you want an effect like that, you have SFM in your colors. That might make you reconsider the use of Enlightened Tutor which is just a stone-cold blank in many scenarios.

I do highly approve of the switch to Sphinx. That helps you fight Dack, and while you are cold to Containment Priests, your primary KeyVault victory condition is not.


I won't deny the things you have said, except for the lack of focus part. This deck is very focused on an objective. It may be too focused. I understand the light mana base issue. I just do not run into major issues from light mana bases because I have always been a storm player in multiple formats. I really approve of throwing what you have at what the meta consists of. Without this approach nothing will change. In the past it has always been random fish decks that try to solve problems. I won't touch a deck if I cannot put up results with it, so if something goes south, I admit it. The other vault deck I made performs great. I wish I had the time, and Rug players to test these theories out.

As for the comment about Yawgmoth's Will. Wins more? What else would I put this card here for? This is obviously not how you outplay the opponent. This is how I can retrieve my combo, and possibly net some other cards as well.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 10:30:19 pm by jamestosetti » Logged
serracollector
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2014, 10:56:25 pm »

Would Negate not be better all around over Dispel?
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2014, 12:44:44 am »

Would Negate not be better all around over Dispel?

The mana constraint is the issue. Negate cannot be a better card than Mana Drain.
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tribet
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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2014, 01:16:14 am »

Negate dodges Misstep, Chalice @ 1 and counters 3 extra spell types than Dispel. But, if you insist on staying with 1 mana CC answers, why not just maxing out the Flusterstorm (instead of Dispel)? Or how about Mindbreak Trap?

Furthermore, Duress effects are in my opinion the safest way to go in these types of decks: it's pro-active and it gives you perfect info. These cards are for some reasons badly underplayed at the moment.

Since you play heavy White, how about cards like Abeyance, Orim's Chant or Silence? Worst case, they can be a TimeWalk or a Misstep-bait.

Last, if you really want to win the counterwars, I suggest running 1 or 2 Defense Grid in your main. They can be fetched using your 4 ET & Tinker!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 01:21:49 am by tribet » Logged
jamestosetti
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2014, 01:41:33 am »

I was trying to avoid cards that are dead to Shops, but that is where this counter battle has gone. Flusterstorm is not as effective as it looks on paper, it is good against storm. I guess I can try this as more than a one of.
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xouman
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2014, 10:34:35 am »

I'd play all day duress/tgz over dispel, and even maybe fluster, so you can also drop probes. I'd probably also play some toxic deluge, even in the main (since you don't play creatures), and balance.

btw, the most successful vault decks in the last years have followed two main paths:

-Grixis, slower deck, with confidants and lots of resources, playing a successful control role until combing out of nowhere.

-Tezzerator/turbo tezz, way faster, with lots of acceleration and redundancy in tezz (1.0 and maybe 2.0) and keys.


This deck is slower than tezzerator but seems worse than grixis in the control role. of course it has raw power, and a heavy drawing engine, but it can be hated with lots of ways and is slower than other combo decks.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 02:24:28 pm »

Normally I really like discard spells, but I wasn't experiencing a lot of success with them in other builds. I was playing a different iteration of storm with Vault Key in it, and the Duress, plus the Mental Missteps worked really well. Again, like the forum is titled, all the lists I post in here are creative. I am still finding fundamental issues with these decks. I hope to see if I can work them out, but these decks are fun to play.

Edit: So, I added Duress, Engineered Explosives, but I am still working on the Shops Match. I went up to 14 lands after including Strip Mine. After I added those cards, I had the tools I needed to fight against Rug Delver. I probably won't be playing as much now because I will be back to studying, but I will keep testing these decks, and posting the results. Here is the list after the changes.

2 Enlightened Tutor

1 Mystical Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Pierce
1 Tinker
1 Misdirection
1 Flusterstorm
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Gush
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Time Walk

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal

2 Tundra
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine

SB: 4 Disenchant
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Steel Sabotage
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Balance
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 11:29:40 pm by jamestosetti » Logged
xouman
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« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2014, 09:59:30 am »

Why are you playing strip mine? You don't want to lose your own lands! Tolarian academy or even library of alexandria seem better here.
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jamestosetti
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« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2014, 07:10:30 pm »

Why are you playing strip mine? You don't want to lose your own lands! Tolarian academy or even library of alexandria seem better here.


I was talking with some other players about fundamental Key Vault deck structures, so I am going to test some of the ideas out, and post the results. It was immediately brought to my attention the mana base is too light. I discovered that Mud capitalizes on this. These builds are interesting to learn about, especially with new cards like Treasure Cruise to experiment with. This also makes testing all the more complex if you do not have a deep understanding of the format and deck structures.
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