The Softest Lock: UWR Stony Pacifier

[Treblocaz]

Durdle: "To stand around and do nothing; taking a long time doing an action or set of actions and accomplishing nothing [--] wasting time."


Here is an image closely associated with what most blue decks are doing in the vintage meta-game before they cast tinker:



Here is an image closely associated with what mature un-powered blue decks could be doing to blue decks with time vault and black lotus recursion:



This deck is about taking durdling to the nextest level. We're talking legitimately doing nothing for turns on end until playing Young Pyromancer only to let it get countered by Force of Will. Everything our opponent is doing has the potential to be a lot better (read faster) than anything we can cast out of our deck, so we hold our own Force of Wills until we see their Yawgmoth's Will, Television Set, or dreaded Tinker. More often than not we'll save our Force of Wills until we scoop to see our sideboard, cursing ourselves for choosing this silly decklist and not running 3x stony silence maindeck in favor of more durdling with Dack Fayden and JtmS. Postboard we get Pyroblast, and a tough decision on what to cut for the second and third stony silences (if we board them in at all).

If you like durdling as much as Luis Scott Vargas or being as childish as Jacob Wilson, Matt Nass, and David Shiels you are going to love adding a white splash of pampers and pacifiers to UR delver.

UWR Stony Pacifier

3 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire // Ice
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Snare
4 Mental Misstep
1 Dack Fayden
1 Stony Silence
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Delver of Secrets
2 Gush
4 Treasure Cruise
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
2 Containment Priest
1 Strip Mine
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Stony Silence

Credits go to the Channelfireball team for illuminating UR delver so vividly in their video documentaries. Thanks also to LSV for proving 3-color delver is possible.
Special thanks to Jar of Fortune and Brianpk80 on cockatrice for re-iterating 3-color delver is often correct, and that containment priest is a house.

[serracollector]

I had mentioned that Containment Priest was the perfect card for Delver in the Mantis Rider thread here. As I stated this also allows you to splash Stony Silence and Swords to Plowshares which answers bout anything Bolt does not. The one question I have tho is where is the AT LEAST singleton of Cavern of Souls? ALL of the creatures in this are humans. Seems so obvious.

[Treblocaz]

That seems like a great idea. Perhaps cutting a gush for a caverns is the correct call.

[serracollector]

I would also drop the one Jace and drop to two Mana Drains and add the two Delvers back in. You always want turn one Delver.

[Treblocaz]

Hmm, that would really interfere with the durdle plan. See the hyperlink related to Luis Scott Vargas in the main post to see more of what I'm trying to convey.

However, I have considered dropping a mana drain for a 1 cmc counterspell like spell pierce/pyroblast/steel sabotage, as it is only useful for casting tcruise and countering tinker/yawgmoth's will/planeswalkers. A big issue with the deck in its state as posted is there are not enough mana sources. Dropping JtMS and a gush for 1x volcanic island and 1x cavern is likely correct.

[vaughnbros]

Overall the concept of the deck is what I think is going to be the best option for treasure cruise going forward (and not in the UR delver decks).

The number of each card in the list posted are quite odd though.  Why 3 pyromancer and not 4?  Why 1 flusterstorm/pierce/pyro/snare? I feel it the deck would be more reliable if you choose 1 or 2 of those counters to play.  Also only 2 preordain, 2 gush, and no probes seems light on the enablers for the two most important cards: pyromancer and treasure cruise.

I would also drop the one Jace and drop to two Mana Drains and add the two Delvers back in. You always want turn one Delver.

Yeh delver ironically is actually the worst card in UR Delver.

[serracollector]

Not off a turn one cavern in my testing but i personally dropped gush altogether added more creatures and maindeck probes and swords and priest and run eighteen lands three of which are cavern.

[Treblocaz]

Overall the concept of the deck is what I think is going to be the best option for treasure cruise going forward (and not in the UR delver decks).

The number of each card in the list posted are quite odd though.  Why 3 pyromancer and not 4?  Why 1 flusterstorm/pierce/pyro/snare? I feel it the deck would be more reliable if you choose 1 or 2 of those counters to play.  Also only 2 preordain, 2 gush, and no probes seems light on the enablers for the two most important cards: pyromancer and treasure cruise.

I would also drop the one Jace and drop to two Mana Drains and add the two Delvers back in. You always want turn one Delver.

Yeh delver ironically is actually the worst card in UR Delver.

Here's an example of what the list would look like if it were more geared towards enabling tcruise and maintaining resilience vs. oath/dredge/tinkerblue. Delver's in all of these lists have been a simple cop out to needing a 3 power flyer for 1 cmc to deal with opposing delvers, lodestone golems, pitching to FoW, needing a partial clock, etc.. The split with the 1 cmc counterspells is pretty common in vintage where daze isn't quite viable (you need a more diverse counter suite than 3x spell pierce for powered cards and moxen imo).

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Stony Silence
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Delver of Secrets
2 Steel Sabotage
3 Containment Priest
1 Fire // Ice
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Thought Scour
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Treasure Cruise
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
4 Mental Misstep
1 Time Walk
1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Stony Silence
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares

[JarofFortune]

Run Preordain before Thought Scour every single time. It is only slightly slower at fueling delve, and when you don't have a cruise it is miles better. If you are trying to be a turbo cruise deck, run all of the preordains and gushes you can. As for your original list, you should go up to four preordain. The consistency that preordain gives you is invaluable. To be honest, you should probably cut time walk, as it is almost always worse if you are playing the control role, and often marginal/force fodder when playing the tempo role.

 I'd cut the spell pierce for a pyroblast, because that also deals with Planeswalkers but also can affect the board. It is debatable, but I might cut the snare for a flusterstorm as that card is (unintuitively) better against Oath decks than snare for its ability to win counter wars and stop show and tell(as long as you also have priests and cages). I also don't think you need steel sabotage at all, though i'd replace one with a disenchant/dack or something. Good luck! 

[vaughnbros]

The clock aspect of delver is unnecessary.  Almost every deck is capable of dealing with one or two 3/2 fliers, its not really a strong enough option when your only other aggro cards are lighting bolt, and pyromancer.  When you factor in that bolt is usually used as a removal spell, and pyromancer doesn't actually need anything else it leaves delver extremely lacking.  Answering other delvers and lodestones is far better done with a removal spell than with a blocker.  

I've opted to cut delvers in Uwr for Meddling Mages.  Meddling mage is exceptionally good with gitaxian probes as he automatically hits your opponents best card in this case, and if you are going blind with him he can shut off problem cards, like kuldotha forgemaster, oath of druids, abrupt decay, ect.  The overall reduction of bad/dead cards in the main makes the deck an even more potent force than delver is.  Here is where I am currently at:

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Meddling Mage
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Dack Fayden

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain
4 Treasure Cruise
3 Gush

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Cavern of Souls

SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Plains
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 4 Containment Priest
SB: 4 Rest in Peace

The sideboard would be subject to change depending on a meta, but currently addresses the biggest problem match ups of dredge, shops, and oath.

[Chubby Rain]

Nice deck, Lance.

Just an FYI, you accidentally (I'm assuming) typed "Treasure Hunt".

[vaughnbros]

Just an FYI, you accidentally (I'm assuming) typed "Treasure Hunt".

Oh yeh nice catch!

[tribet]

4 Meddling Mage is a scary direction.Tapping out turn 2 for no real brokenness. Maybe find room for Stoneforge package instead or a pair of Revoker.

Overall, the deck seems weak to most Shop decks and the sideboard in its current state won't help.

Treasure Cruise/hunt, is not automatic 4-off. 3 is more refined IMO.

[tribet]

Cutting TimeWalk when playing Pyromancer deck seems absurd. This is the card that people are digging forwith all their Cruising & Gushing. Just watch a couple of recent coverage and it's clear it is all about TimeWalk in the mirror, against Oath...

[tribet]

I'm very disappointed that nobody wants to sleeve up 4 Black Vise in their durdle decks. It pains me, but I'll need to break the format soon to make my point.

[JarofFortune]

Cutting TimeWalk when playing Pyromancer deck seems absurd. This is the card that people are digging forwith all their Cruising & Gushing. Just watch a couple of recent coverage and it's clear it is all about TimeWalk in the mirror, against Oath...

No, it's not absurd. If all people were doing was trying to find Time Walk, they would run Personal Tutors. The mirror is determined by who draws more cards, barring some insane threat heavy hand that has enough counters to beat removal. Preordain is a critical piece of that plan. If you are in a topdeck war, which would you rather draw: Preordain or Time Walk? Barring some weird racing situation where most of their creatures are tapped, it is preordain every time.   Time Walk will not save you against Oath, while preordain will draw you into disruption or more card draw to get ahead and stay ahead.

[vaughnbros]

Thank you for the input Tribet, but I'm not sure I follow your logic.

4 Meddling Mage is a scary direction.Tapping out turn 2 for no real brokenness. Maybe find room for Stoneforge package instead or a pair of Revoker.

If that's your concern with meddling mage I don't know why you are suggesting revoker and stoneforge.  Meddling mage is better than revoker by a mile, 2 toughness, does just as much against any card if the card has not resolved yet, and has the option to hit about 10x more cards.  Stoneforge is even slower than these other two options, you have to tap two mana at least twice for her to have any effect.

Overall, the deck seems weak to most Shop decks and the sideboard in its current state won't help.

I haven't had a problem in testing.  Game 1 is about the die roll, but game 2/3 I feel heavily favored.  17 lands + 4 mox/lotus is 4 more mana sources than most delver lists are currently running, just as many shatter effects, and meddling mage>>> delver in that match up, dodging chalice at 1 and doing relevant things.

Treasure Cruise/hunt, is not automatic 4-off. 3 is more refined IMO.

Treasure Cruise is a card that feeds off itself.  IMO if you aren't running 4 you probably shouldn't be playing it at all.

I'm very disappointed that nobody wants to sleeve up 4 Black Vise in their durdle decks. It pains me, but I'll need to break the format soon to make my point.

This deck doesn't keep cards in your opponents hand (like say a shops deck would).  It does the opposite overwhelming them by always having more cards than their opponent, and hitting them with 1 for 1's.  Ivory Tower would be a better option than black vise in here, vise would be more of a card to play against it.

[vaughnbros]

Cutting TimeWalk when playing Pyromancer deck seems absurd. This is the card that people are digging forwith all their Cruising & Gushing. Just watch a couple of recent coverage and it's clear it is all about TimeWalk in the mirror, against Oath...

No, it's not absurd. If all people were doing was trying to find Time Walk, they would run Personal Tutors. The mirror is determined by who draws more cards, barring some insane threat heavy hand that has enough counters to beat removal. Preordain is a critical piece of that plan. If you are in a topdeck war, which would you rather draw: Preordain or Time Walk? Barring some weird racing situation where most of their creatures are tapped, it is preordain every time.   Time Walk will not save you against Oath, while preordain will draw you into disruption or more card draw to get ahead and stay ahead.

There is literally nothing better than a well timed time walk.  Its not the type of card that you can just cast as soon as you draw it.  Comparing simply top deck mode is not a great way to look at two cards.  Sure time walk has never been a great top deck on a stale board, but worst case its an explore for 0 mana that pitches to force every deck with gush should be running it for this reason alone.

[Hrishi]

Really cool list, Lance! It might be nice to find room for a single Top for value (especially because you are not playing Null Rod) but I'm not sure what you could cut. I know it doesn't exactly fuel Cruise directly, but having a way to fix your top decks might indirectly fuel cruises anyway.

[Treblocaz]

I really like the ideas guys.
@Tribet It'd be nice to see some ideas as to a deck that casts non-artifact creatures which can beat mishra's workshop.

Some personal thoughts on cards I thought under-performed:

Preordain/Ponder/Brainstorm all under-perform when cast if there isn't enough of a disruption suite in the deck to cantrip into (this is why I only ran 2x preordain).
Gitaxian probe seriously under-performed for me personally (but I'm running a "flash deck" with lots of eot effects in containment priest and snapcaster).
I'm on the fence on whether or not Young Pyromancer is actually worth slots  . (He's kinda sorcery speed and takes 2+ turns to end the game and doesn't pitch to FoW).
Non-Sapphire Moxen. They don't interact too favorably with Tcruise, get in the way of stony silence postboard, and lands are more consistent.

Thoughts on cards that over-performed:

17x Blue Lands. If you're running less than this your deck will operate glacially slow (not good for tempo).
4x Mental Misstep. It's only "bad" vs. shops, which hopefully speaks to how good it is vs. everything that's not designed around trinisphere.
Thought scour is surprisingly effective by itself at activating tcruise (it will always be better than preordain by 1-2x cards which is very significant).
4x Treasure Cruise. If you have the fetchlands/mana and consistently interactive versatile spells (read lightning bolt/mana drain) to fuel it.
1-2x JtMS. Jace is just good, after playing with it and 19x mana sources he just feels like a king vs. oath and big blue (I think this is a big reason why BUG was running him).
3x Swords to Plowshares in the 75. This ups the removal to 7 pieces (3x Lightning Bolt, 1x Fire // Ice, 3x Swords to Plowshares) giving us a chance vs. young pyromancer decks, bomberman, and possibly shops.

[Treblocaz]

The clock aspect of delver is unnecessary.  Almost every deck is capable of dealing with one or two 3/2 fliers, its not really a strong enough option when your only other aggro cards are lighting bolt, and pyromancer.  When you factor in that bolt is usually used as a removal spell, and pyromancer doesn't actually need anything else it leaves delver extremely lacking.  Answering other delvers and lodestones is far better done with a removal spell than with a blocker.  

I've opted to cut delvers in Uwr for Meddling Mages.  Meddling mage is exceptionally good with gitaxian probes as he automatically hits your opponents best card in this case, and if you are going blind with him he can shut off problem cards, like kuldotha forgemaster, oath of druids, abrupt decay, ect.  The overall reduction of bad/dead cards in the main makes the deck an even more potent force than delver is.

I really like the idea of meddling mage. Have you ever encountered a scenario where your card draw outlets became bad/dead cards because they were uncastable or detracted from your ability to counterspell?

I will probably try meddling mage in a list without gush, as it feels with caverns, and the need to keep 2+ mana up most of the time that thought scour could be of similar quality.

[WhiteLotus]

Jace seems awkward in the deck, looks like Dack would be better with the lower curve and great synergy with Cruise and Gush, also lets you pitch dead cards like stony in certain matchups, and can be played in anti shop maindeck slots.

Thought scour seems so bad, especially in a world with preordain. the purpose of the deck is not fuel cruise but rather to be fueled by cruise while not devoting its resources to building up delve. Thought scour is unplayable without delve and you have no control over the milled cards, meaning you are potentially milling the cruise you wanted to fuel or milling your ancestral with a card that will be dead in a lot of circumstances. Preordain on the other hand is always a card you want to see whether it be in the late game or early.

Your deck needs less mana drains and more flusterstorm/Pyroblast, Drain isn't well suited for these kinda lists since they usually want to use a bit of their mana at sorcery speed (cruise, gush, preordain, threats) and they don't have a great way to capitalize the drain mana. I see the idea with Jace, but wouldn't you be off simply playing dack fayden which is a far better draw engine for this deck than jace ever will be.

I think you are trying to build this too much like your draw go mana drain control deck but delver shells aren't that kinda deck at all imo. It needs to be more tempo oriented and the cards like preordain and co that you haven't been finding that good will automatically become a lot better.

[vaughnbros]

Preordain/Ponder/Brainstorm all under-perform when cast if there isn't enough of a disruption suite in the deck to cantrip into (this is why I only ran 2x preordain).
Gitaxian probe seriously under-performed for me personally (but I'm running a "flash deck" with lots of eot effects in containment priest and snapcaster).

The cantrips are just all about filling your yard for cruise and generating pyromancer tokens.  This deck really just wants to preordain into preordain.  Gitaxian probe is good with snapcaster (allow you to cast him for 2 and 2 life), preordain (informing you of what you should be bottoming), pyromancer (free spells are always nice to get triggers), and for me meddling mage.  

I'm on the fence on whether or not Young Pyromancer is actually worth slots  . (He's kinda sorcery speed and takes 2+ turns to end the game and doesn't pitch to FoW).

He's basically turning all of your cantrips into gasoline because of this if hes not answered immediately the game gets out of hand quickly.  What is your plan for killing people without him?  

Non-Sapphire Moxen. They don't interact too favorably with Tcruise, get in the way of stony silence postboard, and lands are more consistent.
17x Blue Lands. If you're running less than this your deck will operate glacially slow (not good for tempo).

If you aren't running non-blue moxen and aren't running gush then yes you probably should have at least 17 lands.  I personally like the RW mox since they allow for big turn 1/2's.  Turn 1 meddling mages, and pyromancers can be huge.  Moxen also help tremendously against shops accelerating past spheres.

1-2x JtMS. Jace is just good, after playing with it and 19x mana sources he just feels like a king vs. oath and big blue (I think this is a big reason why BUG was running him).
3x Swords to Plowshares in the 75. This ups the removal to 7 pieces (3x Lightning Bolt, 1x Fire // Ice, 3x Swords to Plowshares) giving us a chance vs. young pyromancer decks, bomberman, and possibly shops.

I did try out some slower versions cutting probes and meddling mages for extra removal, Jaces, and some other counters, but it was really bad against delver.  Paying 4 mana just felt like too much for something that doesn't really work with creatures out.

Have you ever encountered a scenario where your card draw outlets became bad/dead cards because they were uncastable or detracted from your ability to counterspell?

Only against shops, where they make cantrips cost too much mana.  Every other match up cycling through them is pretty quick, and they help to get down to the good stuff, like pyromancers and treasure cruises.

I will probably try meddling mage in a list without gush, as it feels with caverns, and the need to keep 2+ mana up most of the time that thought scour could be of similar quality.

Drains definitely make things a lot different.  Its a heavy counter (manawise), and IMO I always felt like its stagnated the game plan of most decks I've played it in.  If 90% of the time its just going to be straight Counterspell cause I can't use the mana effectively, I don't want drain in my deck.  This deck would be one of those cases.

[vaughnbros]

Really cool list, Lance! It might be nice to find room for a single Top for value (especially because you are not playing Null Rod) but I'm not sure what you could cut. I know it doesn't exactly fuel Cruise directly, but having a way to fix your top decks might indirectly fuel cruises anyway.

Top would probably be pretty good.  I'll try it out over the 3rd preordain.  Thanks!

[tribet]

Meddling mage is better than revoker by a mile

I have to disagree here. Revoker is castable anytimes and he is much more forgiving & flexible especially if you top deck him mid-game. He always has a juicy target.

With your Meddling Mage #1, do you name "Bolt, Dismember, Swords, Jace or Duplicant"? I don't think so to me it's just weak speed bump and if you rely on Meddling Mage #2 to name these cards, maybe you'ld better of replacing these 4 slots with 4 Counterspells/Removal.

My other issue with Meddling Mage is about the same than my issue with Spirit of the Labyrinth. Sometimes, it comes just too late on board and the damage is unfortunately already done. I think there was a game from Chris Pikula (in the last few rounds of Vintage Super League) which illustrated that this issue was evident. Fist you don't run all moxen and these cards are not an automatic turn2 drop anyway in Vintage because you rarely want to open up your window wide open like that to your opponent.

I like the card don't get me wrong, it's definitely Vintage playable (and maybe more playable than in Legacy) but I my main issue is with quantity of 4. I like having options in my decks and 2/2 split Mage/Revoker may be sweeter.

Stoneforge is just a house if you want to fight versus other critter decks: 2 Mystic + 1 Batter + 1 Jitte!

I really like the ideas guys.
@Tribet It'd be nice to see some ideas as to a deck that casts non-artifact creatures which can beat mishra's workshop.

Looking very quickly my concern was more about the stucture of the deck: I could count at leat 21 cards in the main that I think underperform in that Shop matchup (Mage, Snappy, MM, Probe, Cruise, Gush) and then you only run 4 Mana Rock & 1 basic in the main. Basically, apart from FOW & Swords, I think the rest is rather weak. The sideboard with 5 pin point removals & 2 basic will definitely improve the deck but it still makes me quite nervous.

[vaughnbros]

I have to disagree here. Revoker is castable anytimes and he is much more forgiving & flexible especially if you top deck him mid-game. He always has a juicy target.

Revoker isn't really castable anytime.  Hes castable AFTER their threat has hit.  Meddling mage is castable BEFORE their threat has hit. In a tempo deck, I'll stick with my statement of the latter being a mile better than the former.

With your Meddling Mage #1, do you name "Bolt, Dismember, Swords, Jace or Duplicant"? I don't think so to me it's just weak speed bump

A speed bump is usually enough when you are just trying to get pyromancer triggers.  Forcing them to play 2 removal spells of different names instead of just 1 is big.

if you rely on Meddling Mage #2 to name these cards, maybe you'ld better of replacing these 4 slots with 4 Counterspells/Removal.

Counterspells and removal can't be played proactively, and sadly the only comparable counterspell would be mystic snake, 1UGG, and the closest removal spell would be Angel of Despair (3WWBB), or Necrotic Sliver (4WB and kills itself), because meddling mage is a creature that can shut down any non-land in all of magic and both are relevant.

My other issue with Meddling Mage is about the same than my issue with Spirit of the Labyrinth. Sometimes, it comes just too late on board and the damage is unfortunately already done. I think there was a game from Chris Pikula (in the last few rounds of Vintage Super League) which illustrated that this issue was evident. Fist you don't run all moxen and these cards are not an automatic turn2 drop anyway in Vintage because you rarely want to open up your window wide open like that to your opponent.

Its a proactive card, yes that is a drawback of the card, but a drawback that I think is worth it in a tempo deck.  The deck is playing all of the relevant artifact mana (sans lotus petal) that would allow me to drop it turn 1, and all of the lands can produce U or W so its as close to an automatic turn 2 drop as you can get.

I like the card don't get me wrong, it's definitely Vintage playable (and maybe more playable than in Legacy) but I my main issue is with quantity of 4. I like having options in my decks and 2/2 split Mage/Revoker may be sweeter.

Its prone to removal (unless I've named it), and in either case I want a second one.  Gitaxian probe also has me naming odd cards, like time walk for instance, in some situations.  Its not always a blind name.

Stoneforge is just a house if you want to fight versus other critter decks: 2 Mystic + 1 Batter + 1 Jitte!

I've played a lot of stoneforge in vintage and finally realized that I just hate the card.  Its way too inconsistent, slow, and vulnerable.  

Inconsistent: Drawing a fetch target (batter, jitte, or sword of something) is usually not much better than drawing a tinker target.  Mystic itself is a measly 1/2, so if you already have all of your equipment or your equipment gets destroyed shes pretty useless.

Slow: Don't let her mana cost trick you, she basically has echo, and if you get anything other than batterskull she has triple echo.  This is a huge tempo loss.

Vulnerable:  
Revoker negates her.  If you fetch batterskull revoker on her, if you fetch another equipment revoker on the equipment.  You get a 1/2 for 1W they get a 2/1 for 2 colorless, which is not good.  Metamorph also negates her creating board parity.  Making her just generally bad against shops.  

As for other match ups if you fetch batterskull any removal spell on her ends that plan quickly, and you get basically nothing out of it unless its super late game or you are mana flooded.  If you fetch any other equipment, you end up spending 4WW playing her, the eqiupment, and equipping only to have her eat a removal spell before you get an attack in.

Looking very quickly my concern was more about the stucture of the deck: I could count at leat 21 cards in the main that I think underperform in that Shop matchup (Mage*, Snappy, MM, Probe, Cruise*, Gush) and then you only run 4 Mana Rock & 1 basic in the main. Basically, apart from FOW & Swords, I think the rest is rather weak. The sideboard with 5 pin point removals & 2 basic will definitely improve the deck but it still makes me quite nervous.

Cruise is actually really good against shops and if mage refers to meddling mage he is also solid against shops.  I agree its not a great match up, snapcaster and gush would probably have to be dropped to improve its main deck chances, so it becomes a question of what can replace these without hurting the other match ups.

[tribet]

You're quoting everything but only answer half the things that suits you.

Opening your window wide open turn 2 is bad and that's the biggest problem with cards such as Meddling Mage. You can choose to ignore that and call it a downside. I think it's a strategic flaw and I'm always nervous when my decks go that path (even casting cards like Standstill T2 is not always the correct play, so please). And that's also why Revoker being casteabe after the threat has landed is actually a +1 in that situation compared to Meddling Mage.

You forgot to say that you run 2 Volcanic, so no Meddling Mage is not an automatic turn 2 drop and that's again a +1 for Revoker. MM also requires that you fetch non-basics, so that's -1 for him.

Much like Meddling Mage, Revoker is often cast before the threat is played (naming obvious stuff like Forgemaster, Ratchet Bomb, TimeVault, Jace, ... or just Moxens for tempo). So that's even with Meddling Mage. If you're good enough to cast Meddling Mage and hit correctly, playing Revoker proactively & wisely shouldn't be an issue.

Mystic Snake, Angel of Despair, Necrotic Sliver, ... I see what you're doing here but you could have at least listed Spellstutter Sprite which is a favourite of mine. Saying that you also omitted options such as V.Clique, Priest (in the main), a 3rd Snappy possibly instead of 4th Meddling M or even the 4cc Resto Angel for extra tricks with Meddling Mage.

Maybe your statement should have been: "4 Cruise is actually really good against Shops". Fair enough and good luck with your deck

[vaughnbros]

Opening your window wide open turn 2 is bad and that's the biggest problem with cards such as Meddling Mage. You can choose to ignore that and call it a downside. I think it's a strategic flaw and I'm always nervous when my decks go that path (even casting cards like Standstill T2 is not always the correct play, so please). And that's also why Revoker being casteabe after the threat has landed is actually a +1 in that situation compared to Meddling Mage.

We clearly have a fundamental difference in the way we view cards because to me a T2 standstill is almost always the correct play.

You forgot to say that you run 2 Volcanic, so no Meddling Mage is not an automatic turn 2 drop and that's again a +1 for Revoker. MM also requires that you fetch non-basics, so that's -1 for him.

I really don't see how this is relevant.  Volcanic taps for U.  The list I'm running runs a single basic land.  I'm clearly not going to go far without fetching a non basic.

Much like Meddling Mage, Revoker is often cast before the threat is played (naming obvious stuff like Forgemaster, Ratchet Bomb, TimeVault, Jace, ... or just Moxens for tempo). So that's even with Meddling Mage. If you're good enough to cast Meddling Mage and hit correctly, playing Revoker proactively & wisely shouldn't be an issue.

Except that revoker is significantly worse at stopping many cards.  Naming forgemaster with revoker, they can still play him as a 3/5.  This deck doesn't have a mana denial plan so naming moxen with revoker isn't really an ideal situation.  Mage=Revoker on cards like EE and Jace.  Time vault is one of the few cards where revoker is actually superior.  

You also completely gloss over the fact that revoker is an artifact.  That makes it significantly more vulnerable to removal in game 1's.

Spellstutter Sprite

Only reliably counters spells 1 or less.

V.Clique

This card has all of the exact same problems that you are complaining about meddling mage having.  It costs double colored mana (which is apparently a huge drawback), and it has to be played proactively (which apparently is also a huge drawback).  I'm not sure why you are bringing this up?  I love clique.  I also know its very similar to meddling mage.

Priest (in the main), a 3rd Snappy

These only stops specific cards.

4cc Resto Angel for extra tricks with Meddling Mage.

I'm not sure what trick there is with this?  I get to name a new card, but the original one I named is no longer being blocked.

Your statement should have been: "4 Cruise is actually really good against Shops".

The 4 is implied from my previous post:

Treasure Cruise is a card that feeds off itself.  IMO if you aren't running 4 you probably shouldn't be playing it at all.

You're quoting everything but only answer half the things that suits you.

Fair enough and good luck with your deck

In my interpretation of your posts I'm answering everything.  If you want further clarification or elaboration, I'd be willing to do so.

[tribet]

T2 Standstill is often a huge gamble if you don't already have FOW in hand (and in some matchups even 2 pitch counters already in hand). So from my experience, a T2 Meddling Mage (other than the fact that it is not back-breaking) is a liability and when you run 4, you basically create this false urge where you have to play them asap putting yourself in a corner.

Sorry but your counter-argument to my suggestion about Priest & 3rd Snappies in the main is not logical. You say that "They only stop specific cards". You say it yourself "cards" plural. Meddling Mage "stop a specific card" without "s" and at a snail-speed.

"Revoker is prone to artifact hate and that makes it significantly more vulnerable to removal in game 1"?! I honestly don't bite that. It is as vulnerable G1 as Meddling Mage. Creature hate is everywhere nowadays. Game 2 & 3, people won't board their artifact hate in against your fish deck so Revoker is still as vulnerable as Mage. If you didn't perceive it that way in your testings, maybe it is because Meddling Mage is often stuck in your hand or RFGed by FOW. On the other hand, Revoker being easier to cast, never RFGed via FOW and just a strong card in itself unfortunately gets answered accordingly more often. So my argument there is: No Revoker is not significantly more vulnerable but yes it gets blown up more often than Meddling Mage.

There was a bit of sarcasm in my last comment so to make it clearer, I basically disagree with you stating: "Cruise is actually really good against Shops". I also disagree even more with you implying that "4 Cruise is actually really good against Shops".

Once again, same as Meddling Mage, my point is not to claim that Cruise is horrible or whatever. I'm more debating the numbers and more particularly number 4. We both know how the game works and what cards do or dont do. Debating over this is going anywhere. Debating on strategic goals & roles and card numbers is what I find actually interesting when brewing and it seems I have a different view on Fish decks than you. Cutting Stony Silence (which stops like 9 cards mini in most matchups) and preferring 4 Meddling Mages instead is criminal to me.

[vaughnbros]

@tribet.  We have both made our arguements on the cards I dont see a point in continuing to reiterate them ad naseum.  I like meddling mage because I can name ANY card in magic.  The most critical point I am making and one that you seem to continue to ignore.  (Also pitching to force is now a drawback?!?).  If you want to discuss this further via PM or discuss something else about the deck here that's fine, but we clearly won't agree on meddling mage or revoker (or landstill).

Why do you disagree that treasure cruise is not good against shops?  Where is your evidence?  Please don't make unsupported claims.

Stony silence doesnt stop 9 cards minimum, it stops 2 against delver, none against dredge, and many of the cards its stopping are typically not relevant as the deck has no mana denial plan.  It's good against EE's, time vaults, sensei tops, and handful of other cards, consisting of less than 50% of most metas.