[FRG] - Humble Defector

[MaximumCDawg]

Another set, another potentially powerful bear:


Humble Defector
1R
Creature - Human Rogue
T: Draw two cards. Target opponent gains control of Humble Defector. Activate this ability only during your turn.

This guy does not have haste, which hurts him, but holy cow does he get your cards flowing if you get to untap with him.  He might be a bad Starke of Rath except that we have Homeward Path to play with.  Failing that, any way to untap the creature potentially allows you to start drawing oodles of extra cards.  Heck, even using him during counter wars seems really good, since he will pass tapped to your opponent.  Draw 2 on tap?

I think he has potential.  The cost is playable, the effect is playable, and if you can break the symmetry provided by the downside, this is a tremendous card.

Best way of thinking about him: Seal of Intuition.  

[bactgudz]

Pretty nuts with jeskai ascendancy if you have enough instants

[Craft]

now all they need is
Brand Bear 1W
Human Monk
Flash
Opponents cannot control permanents you own.
2/2

[Protoaddict]

If you include him in jeskai you can potentially stack a bunch of draw effects at once and then hand him over.

You can potentially go nuts with crimson wisps if you wanna get crafty since that is also a 1 mana cantrip that works with mana dorks  that you want in your list as well.

I am not 100% sure it has a home though, because if you have a mana dork or faerie conclave online and are already comboing with Ascendency then you may not need more cards. Modern is going to have a field day with this though.

[vaughnbros]

This seems really bad without a way to combo with him basically a weird version of howling mine, and I don't think there are any good cards that combo well with him.  If I'm playing 2 independently bad cards, they should be able to win the game when I combine them.

Jeskai doesn't really need this to combo in vintage.

[xouman]

Quite interesting card, I like it a lot. However I find difficult to play it in vintage, at least without haste. About how to make it asymettrical, what about Restoration Angel or something similar? Tbh, resto in your own turn seems awkward, so it's probably a bad path.

[ben_berry]

He combos well with Homeward Path

[Guli]

Needs support, I don't see it happening.

The way Spirit/Mikokoro works, you can try Defector/Homeward Path

It would work, but your deck would be polluted. Homeward Path would probably make you want to run more things that aren't actually good, and it all becomes a mess.

Or not?

Could it work in a shell with 4 Homeward Path, 4 Cavern and 4 Defectors? And maybe some other shenanigans? Is drawing 2 that rewarding in such a deck??

[serracollector]

Isnt there a card that gives ALL players shroud? Then you never have to pass him as you cant target your opponent? just brainstorming here.

[psly4mne]

Isnt there a card that gives ALL players shroud? Then you never have to pass him as you cant target your opponent? just brainstorming here.

I don't think that card exists. But if it did and you played it, you would not be able to activate Humble Defector.

[Greg]

Isnt there a card that gives ALL players shroud? Then you never have to pass him as you cant target your opponent? just brainstorming here.

I don't think that card exists. But if it did and you played it, you would not be able to activate Humble Defector.

Are you sure about that, psly4mne?

When an opponent has a Leyline of Sanctity or Witchbane Orb in play, a tapped Forbidden Orchard will still provide mana, but without creating tokens for your opponent. I'm certainly not the person to go to for deep comprehension of the rules, but this, to me, seems like a similar situation.

[Protoaddict]

The Effect targets. end of discussion

[bactgudz]

Isnt there a card that gives ALL players shroud? Then you never have to pass him as you cant target your opponent? just brainstorming here.

I don't think that card exists. But if it did and you played it, you would not be able to activate Humble Defector.

Are you sure about that, psly4mne?

When an opponent has a Leyline of Sanctity or Witchbane Orb in play, a tapped Forbidden Orchard will still provide mana, but without creating tokens for your opponent. I'm certainly not the person to go to for deep comprehension of the rules, but this, to me, seems like a similar situation.

psly4mne is right...part of defector's activated ability is to give control to a target player; so you must choose a target when activating.  Forbidden Orchard has a triggered ability that triggers off being tapped for mana.  If orchard was worded like Deathrite Shaman, then not only would it not be a mana ability, but you couldn't activate it if opponents had shroud...and to that point you can't activate Deathrite Shaman if there is not a legal target for it just like you couldn't activate Defector.

[ben_berry]

Flickerform is probably too much mana to abuse with this guy.

[davidasmatthews]

Isnt there a card that gives ALL players shroud? Then you never have to pass him as you cant target your opponent? just brainstorming here.

I don't think that card exists. But if it did and you played it, you would not be able to activate Humble Defector.

Are you sure about that, psly4mne?

When an opponent has a Leyline of Sanctity or Witchbane Orb in play, a tapped Forbidden Orchard will still provide mana, but without creating tokens for your opponent. I'm certainly not the person to go to for deep comprehension of the rules, but this, to me, seems like a similar situation.

psly4mne is right...part of defector's activated ability is to give control to a target player; so you must choose a target when activating.  Forbidden Orchard has a triggered ability that triggers off being tapped for mana.  If orchard was worded like Deathrite Shaman, then not only would it not be a mana ability, but you couldn't activate it if opponents had shroud...and to that point you can't activate Deathrite Shaman if there is not a legal target for it just like you couldn't activate Defector.

Wheren't the rules recently changed so that when one part of an ability fizzle it does not effect adjourning abilities? Also if you are able to untap and activate an even number of times do you essentially keep humble defector? Wouldn't each activation on the stack happen passing it to your opponent and then back to you?

[Protoaddict]

You can activate multiple times in a row if you can untap him before one of the effects resolves. It will never get passed back to you though unless your opponent uses it since its TARGET OPPONENT and you must declare targets when activated, not on resolution. It will just keep giving its self back to the original target.

One again though, if you Tap it and put the effect on the stack and then twiddle it, you can resolve the twiddle effect first and reactivate it with the first effect on the stack.

[MaximumCDawg]

Wheren't the rules recently changed so that when one part of an ability fizzle it does not effect adjourning abilities?

No.  When you try to put a spell or ability on the stack that needs X targets, you must be able to choose those targets as a part of casting the spell.  If you cannot, you're in illegal action territory and the game backs up.

You may be thinking of the fact that a spell that had a valid target when it was put on the stack does as much as it can when it resolves provided it still has at least one target still around.  If all targets are removed and the spell goes to resolve, it is put into the graveyard instead.  For example, Prophetic Blast does not let you draw cards if all targets are gone before it resolves.

Also if you are able to untap and activate an even number of times do you essentially keep humble defector? Wouldn't each activation on the stack happen passing it to your opponent and then back to you?

No, but you raise an interesting question by accident.  When you activate Humble, you choose the target opponent when it goes on the stack.  It's locked in.  It doesn't say "exchange control" like Chimera does, of whom you might be thinking.

The interesting part is this: so lets say we untapped Humble a lot and now we've got 3 activation on the stack.  First activation resolves, control changes.  Now the second ability goes to resolve.  The "target opponent" is still there, but now it's no longer an "opponent."  Does this fizzle the activations waiting to resolve?

I say: No, because the person who activated the ability still controls it, regardless of where the creature source now is, and therefore from the ABILITY'S perspective, the initial "target opponent" is still an opponent.  I'm not 100% sure that I'm right, though.

[bactgudz]

The interesting part is this: so lets say we untapped Humble a lot and now we've got 3 activation on the stack.  First activation resolves, control changes.  Now the second ability goes to resolve.  The "target opponent" is still there, but now it's no longer an "opponent."  Does this fizzle the activations waiting to resolve?

I say: No, because the person who activated the ability still controls it, regardless of where the creature source now is, and therefore from the ABILITY'S perspective, the initial "target opponent" is still an opponent.  I'm not 100% sure that I'm right, though.

This is correct, you still control the abilities on the stack even though you no longer control the source...so they still have a legal target, resolve and the targeted opponent gains control (redundantly if it's the same opponent) of Defector.