[FRF] Hewed Stone Retainers

[Protoaddict]

Why would you want workshop in that deck? We have already established that the card is not good enough for existing shops lists right? So now we are talking about what decks could play it, and blue came up, but if your in blue isnt this just better? What other cards would a blue deck run that justify playing shops. Your playing the moxen already, you can play academy most likely, but if your in blue you probably just want trinket mages with all that jewelry in your list, forces, tinker, a blight steel, blue power, and thirst. If you want 5 angels maybe, but I doubt you want that.

[John Cox]

Why would you want workshop in that deck? We have already established that the card is not good enough for existing shops lists right? So now we are talking about what decks could play it, and blue came up, but if your in blue isnt this just better? What other cards would a blue deck run that justify playing shops. Your playing the moxen already, you can play academy most likely, but if your in blue you probably just want trinket mages with all that jewelry in your list, forces, tinker, a blight steel, blue power, and thirst. If you want 5 angels maybe, but I doubt you want that.

You wouldn't want a workshop in a blue deck. You wouldn't want that blue creature in a vintage deck. The only reason you would use a 4/4 beat stick for 4 in vintage is because of workshop and a good ability.

[Protoaddict]

But that's exactly my point. The creature is unplayable outside of a deck that uses the card Mishras workshop, since it is basically the best way to play the card and the only way to make it more efficient than other options. We have already discussed at length how this card is also just not good enough for any deck that currently would run workshops, so people were talking about where it could work and using it in a blue deck was the list that people came up with, to which my point is a blue deck would never run this because if you have blue mana you have an all but strictly superior version of it in the angel.

The only deck that theoretically could run this card is a blue deck that also has workshops, since it would have a reason to play it over the angel, had the workshops in the list, and has the artifacts to trigger it, but as you start building that list you quickly come to the realization that your just building a subpar version of another existing list, either salvagers or delver.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Same CMC
Pitchable to force
Has Flying
Cannot be hit by artifact removal

So if we are brainstorming Hewed Stone Retainers in a deck with all the artifacts and probes and such, why wouldn't I use the angel first along with counter spells and maybe tinker and brainstorm and all that jazz. And then if I am doing that, why wouldn't I just play delver which asks you to do much less to get a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana

You can't cast that off a workshop.

And you need blue.  As much as WotC is trying to make us forget, there are 4 other colors (and one non-color) left in the game.

[Protoaddict]

If WotC wanted you to play other colors then they would give those colors viable counterspells and card draw, not 3 mana conditional 4/4s.

They only remember the color pie for 4 of the 5 colors it seems because blue as of the last few sets has gotten weenie creatures more mana efficient than red or white.

The only reason we even have this conversation to talk about is because artifacts occupy a strange space, where mana cost is so very mitigated because of shops, and I dare say if shops didn't exist or was restricted we would not have this conversation at all. An artifact that has a strictly or mostly superior version in any given color may still wind up being playable over that superior card just because of how much mana you can make in shops, but this is not the case for this card. Kuldotha forge master is a great example of this as well, because in most regards it is a worse tinker (not strictly but you get the point) but because its an all colorless artifact it can be the basis of a deck over splashing blue for tinker and tutors. Witchbane orb is in most cases strictly worse than Leyline of Sanctity and it can still see play in shops because it is an artifact and castable early off shops.

[sirgog]

I don't think a 3 mana 4/4 artifact creature with no other text would be viable in the format. This is a bit weaker than that hypothetical card.

That's not to say there will never be a game where this card would be good, I just don't feel it is well positioned or even close to it at present.